HERESY 100

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Except that there was no written record of the Night's King to begin with because it all came from runes on rocks and stories.

Exactly. If any actual written record existedd it would have been a rune on a rock or tablet that was smashed to pieces. With a never speak that name again warning.

[JNR]

So they don't want a record that they were at the Pact so they destroy every piece of written history from the 4.000 year long Age of Heroes to cover this fact up? Really? If they were there, then they would have written other things down that had nothing to do with the Pact or the Wall, all of that would have to be destroyed to pass off such a lie. From people's grocery lists, down to wedding announcements, etc.

It does seem like a lot of work.

Another direct statement on this point comes from Jeor Mormont, who says the First Men killed half the CotF with bronze, and the Andals finished the job with iron.

Now, I don't take that to mean the First Men had no iron. Maybe they did, and didn't use it against the CotF due to the Pact (which we're told was honored until the Andals came).

But it does seem strange to me that, if the Andals were around for thousands of years before we imagine, they apparently never had a beef with the CotF. Then all of a sudden they did, for no apparent reason, and began the process of cutting down weirwoods (cf. High Heart) and mass slaughter.

That all sounds a great deal like what the First Men did, too... when they first entered Westeros, and they first encountered weirwoods and CotF.

And finally, I am not even sure there were any Andals (as a specific group) as early as the Pact. There are no clear references in the books that would date them to such a point in time.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

An excellent point which brings into focus the early years of the NW. Do we honestly believe that King Sandy Arse of Dorne was sending men to man the Wall? I can't see it, the first men of the watch must have been purely from the northern FM clans after some hundreds or thousands of years I could see KITN's sending captured prisoners there after wars with the other kings of westeros, I think that's how the custom of sending prisoners began.

If i am thinking of the same thing you are, It was the Rhoyne queen who defeated the kings of Dorne then sent them to the wall. Which was about 1000 years before King Robert. So well after the Andals. But I do not know who started the tradition of bringing non FM to the wall. I think it would involve some gold and silver along with the prisoners and war criminals. A little coin on the side.

[FainRivers]

They wouldn't have wolf dreams since momma dire had't given birth yet .... ;)

This reminds me of something that's been on my mind. I was reading in Feast a few nights ago. I don't have my book at work with me, so I'm going by memory. When Maeseter Aemon is at the inn in Bravos, he's talking to Sam about his dreams. He tells Sam he "remembers" the dragons, Sam asks him how he can remember them, as they were all dead before he was born. Aemon tells him it's his dragon blood, or something like that. He mentions hearing the leather wings, and feeling the heat of their fires. Sam says he is losing his wits. I wish I could remember the exact quote. I'm not what it means, if anything, but it felt significant to me. I'm wondering if its a clue to the dragon/direwolf/skinchanger bond?

Or I may reading too much into it. It felt like a clue to me though.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

It does seem like a lot of work.

Another direct statement on this point comes from Jeor Mormont, who says the First Men killed half the CotF with bronze, and the Andals finished the job with iron.

Now, I don't take that to mean the First Men had no iron. Maybe they did, and didn't use it against the CotF due to the Pact (which we're told was honored until the Andals came).

But it does seem strange to me that, if the Andals were around for thousands of years before we imagine, they apparently never had a beef with the CotF. Then all of a sudden they did, for no apparent reason, and began the process of cutting down weirwoods (cf. High Heart) and mass slaughter.

That all sounds a great deal like what the First Men did, too... when they first entered Westeros, and they first encountered weirwoods and CotF.

And finally, I am not even sure there were any Andals (as a specific group) as early as the Pact. There are no clear references in the books that would date them to such a point in time.

Good points. And I remember someone pointing out that the Andals would have most likely been pushed out by the Valaryans conquests in Essos. Which puts it well forward of the pact and Long Night.

[Dagda]

I've got this theory that when Arya comes back to Westeros, as a Faceless [Wo]Man, she'll meet Nymeria and remember who she is, a Stark.

She still has Needle, that should keep her connected.

[Dagda]

So they destroy every account and piece of parchment referencing the Wall/Pact and the rest of recorded history from the Age of Heroes to imply they weren't there? Seems like a huge stretch.

... And the Maesters should have better records since they seem to pre-date the Septons.

[Black Crow]

Except that there was no written record of the Night's King to begin with because it all came from runes on rocks and stories.

Ah, well this is where one of the timeline heresies comes in, namely that the Nights King was relatively recent and that the story of his overthrow by his brother, the Stark in Winterfell is a parable of the breaking of the Pact to secure peace with the Andals.

This is the significance of that "oldest" list of Lord Commanders which Sam was so troubled by; because it had only been written about 2,000 years ago - and perhaps composed then specifically in order to write the Nights King out of history.

[Dagda]

As a position its obviously debateable, or would be on any other thread, but its compounded by this curious looking for faces in tomatoes and cuccumbers; treating the whole series as "The mystery of Jon Snow" and scrutinising every line for references to him being the legitimate son of Rhaegar and true king of Westeros.

And occasionally they venture out of the bunker into the wider forums and get all hurt and defensive at the apparent hostility...

OUT of the bunker? The bunker is armory ready to blow at any moment. On the plus side, I haven't been called a troll or threatened with a mod report in the last 24 hours. I'm picking at the edges though .... Maybe I 'll become a pet.

[Black Crow]

Exactly. If any actual written record existedd it would have been a rune on a rock or tablet that was smashed to pieces. With a never speak that name again warning.

There is of course that story (I forget the origin) of the man who was promised his heart's desire just so long as he did not think of a white horse. Naturally enough he failed because he kept remembering what he hadn't to think about.

It was also remarked once by someone that the sureest way to ensure the survival of a document containing secret information was to endorse it "burn this when you have read it".

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Ah, well this is where one of the timeline heresies comes in, namely that the Nights King was relatively recent and that the story of his overthrow by his brother, the Stark in Winterfell is a parable of the breaking of the Pact to secure peace with the Andals.

This is the significance of that "oldest" list of Lord Commanders which Sam was so troubled by; because it had only been written about 2,000 years ago - and perhaps composed then specifically in order to write the Nights King out of history.

Seems like an even bigger stretch...

[Black Crow]

Good points. And I remember someone pointing out that the Andals would have most likely been pushed out by the Valaryans conquests in Essos. Which puts it well forward of the pact and Long Night.

I and several others can recall this being confirmed in an SSM although we've not yet found it again.

[Black Crow]

Seems like an even bigger stretch...

Sam was very unhappy with the list for some reason.

[Dagda]

This reminds me of something that's been on my mind. I was reading in Feast a few nights ago. I don't have my book at work with me, so I'm going by memory. When Maeseter Aemon is at the inn in Bravos, he's talking to Sam about his dreams. He tells Sam he "remembers" the dragons, Sam asks him how he can remember them, as they were all dead before he was born. Aemon tells him it's his dragon blood, or something like that. He mentions hearing the leather wings, and feeling the heat of their fires. Sam says he is losing his wits. I wish I could remember the exact quote. I'm not what it means, if anything, but it felt significant to me. I'm wondering if its a clue to the dragon/direwolf/skinchanger bond?

Or I may reading too much into it. It felt like a clue to me though.

Welcome.

It's a good topic. I'm not sure a dragon can be warged, or skin changed, since the Valyrians bound their dragons with magical horns, so I would think that there is something inherent in the bloodline, the fire blood, that drives the Targs. They balance the edge of madness.

[wolfmaid7]

This reminds me of something that's been on my mind. I was reading in Feast a few nights ago. I don't have my book at work with me, so I'm going by memory. When Maeseter Aemon is at the inn in Bravos, he's talking to Sam about his dreams. He tells Sam he "remembers" the dragons, Sam asks him how he can remember them, as they were all dead before he was born. Aemon tells him it's his dragon blood, or something like that. He mentions hearing the leather wings, and feeling the heat of their fires. Sam says he is losing his wits. I wish I could remember the exact quote. I'm not what it means, if anything, but it felt significant to me. I'm wondering if its a clue to the dragon/direwolf/skinchanger bond?

Or I may reading too much into it. It felt like a clue to me though.

Fair I'm going to direct you to a thread"Dany, the Dragon lord and the Dragonbond".Its on the main page of the Dance thread.We are discussing that in depth. Its another heresy baby, but a Dragon being Warged might not happen because they form a bond that goes way beyond sorcery.The horn actually mimics the process by which a Dragon chooses its rider.But the bond is as strong as a Wargbond, but different.

Hence the reason if any Skinchanger does try he will most likely be roasted by the Dragons song.

[TheButcherCrow]

If i am thinking of the same thing you are, It was the Rhoyne queen who defeated the kings of Dorne then sent them to the wall. Which was about 1000 years before King Robert. So well after the Andals. But I do not know who started the tradition of bringing non FM to the wall. I think it would involve some gold and silver along with the prisoners and war criminals. A little coin on the side.

I've revised my ideas on the earliest NW being entirely northern, the "realms of men" kind of puts it in perspective. Clearly at some point every man who called himself "king" in westeros was required to send men to the wall, "the watch takes no part". It started as a sacrifice, became an honour and finally, a punishment.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I've revised my ideas on the earliest NW being entirely northern, the "realms of men" kind of puts it in perspective. Clearly at some point every man who called himself "king" in westeros was required to send men to the wall, "the watch takes no part". It started as a sacrifice, became an honour and finally, a punishment.

ETA I misunderstood you, so i scrapped what i had written.

[Black Crow]

I've revised my ideas on the earliest NW being entirely northern, the "realms of men" kind of puts it in perspective. Clearly at some point every man who called himself "king" in westeros was required to send men to the wall, "the watch takes no part". It started as a sacrifice, became an honour and finally, a punishment.

It is actually something we discussed before; that not only did the 100 pieces of dragonglass given each year by the Singers correspond to the 100 kingdoms of men, but that there were then 100 men in the Watch; one from each kingdom

All changed of course when the Andals came and the Pact was broken...

[aDanceWithFlagons]

There is of course that story (I forget the origin) of the man who was promised his heart's desire just so long as he did not think of a white horse. Naturally enough he failed because he kept remembering what he hadn't to think about.

It was also remarked once by someone that the sureest way to ensure the survival of a document containing secret information was to endorse it "burn this when you have read it".

The tales of the Night's King, and maybe his full name, definitely were told in whispered words and with winestained tongues.

Like the bronze and iron of first men, the runes could be written on parchment and wood along with stone and metal. Yet what survived can not be translated. Or so we've been led to believe.

the Thenns may be a source of old runes translation. Some bit of info could be lying around. But thats another book away.

[Melifeather]

I've stumbled upon a historical record of Alexander the Great as having an alliance with the Celts, and that the Celts sealed there alliance with an eerily familiar oath:

When about to undertake his conquest of Asia (334 B.C.) Alexander first made a compact with the Celts "who dwelt by the lonian Gulf" in order to secure his Greek dominions from attack during his absence. The episode is related by Ptolemy Soter in his history of the wars of Alexander. [Ptolemy, a friend, and probably, indeed, half-brother, of Alexander, was doubtless present when this incident took place. His work has not survived, but is quoted by Arrian and other historians.] It has a vividness which stamps it as a bit of authentic history, and another singular testimony to the truth of the narrative has been brought to light by de Jubainville. As the Celtic envoys, who are described as men of haughty bearing and great stature, their mission concluded) were drinking with the king, he asked them, it is said, what was the thing they, the Celts, most feared. The envoys replied : "We fear no man : there is but one thing that we fear, namely, that the sky should fall on us; but we regard nothing so much as the friendship of a man such as thou." Alexander bade them farewell, and, turning to his nobles, whispered: "What a vainglorious people are these Celts !" Yet the answer, for all its Celtic bravura and flourish, was not without both dignity and courtesy.

The reference to the falling of the sky seems to give a glimpse of some primitive belief or myth of which it is no longer possible to discover the meaning. [One is reminded of the folk-tale about Henny Penny, who went to tell the king that the sky was falIing] The national oath by which the Celts bound themselves to the observance of their covenant with Alexander is remarkable. If we observe not this engagement," they said, "may the sky fall on us and crush us, may the earth gape and swallow us up, may the sea burst out and overwhelm us."

De Jubainville draws attention most appositely to a passage from the "Táin Bo Cuailgne," in the Book of Leinster, [The Book of Leinster is a manuscript of the twelfth century. The version of the " Táin " given in it probably dates from the eighth. See de Jubainville, " Premiers Habitants," ii. 316.] where the Ulster heroes declare to their king, who wished to leave them in battle in order to meet an attack in another part of the field "Heaven is above us, and earth beneath us, and the sea is round about us. Unless the sky shall fall with its showers of stars on the ground where we are camped, or unless the earth shall be rent by an earthquake) or unless the waves of the blue sea come over the forests of the living world, we shall not give ground." [Dr. Douglas Hyde in his "Literary History of Ireland " (p.7) gises a slightly different translation] This survival of a peculiar oath-formula or more than a thousand years, and its reappearance, after being first heard of among the Celts of Mid-Europe, in a mythical romance of Ireland, is certainly most curious, and, with other facts which we shall note hereafter, speaks strongly for the community and persistence of Celtic culture.[it is also a testimony to the close accuracy of the narrative of Ptolemy.]

I see a similarity with the Reed's oath in that if the Celts failed in holding up their end of the bargain, they were calling on the forces of nature to bring about a punishment.