TheButcherCrow Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 How about this, NK was a bastard son of Winterfell, Jon Snow. He had two brothers, the elder brother was the rightful KITN, the younger brother betrayed him & tried to seize the thrown. The elder brother sought help from his bastard brother on the Wall, he gave his aid, some of the NW agreed with him, some didn't. The elder brother was killed but he had a son & the NK swore to put him on the throne. The younger brother, the "Stark in Winterfell", made a deal with the wildlings, a deal he later did not honour, and the NK was overthrown, the heir killed and the new KITN put about stories of "The Night's King & his inhuman bride" much as the Freys are claiming Robb turned into a wolf at the RW and tried to eat Walder Frey or whatever shit they came up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I've stumbled upon a historical record of Alexander the Great as having an alliance with the Celts, and that the Celts sealed there alliance with an eerily familiar oath: When about to undertake his conquest of Asia (334 B.C.) Alexander first made a compact with the Celts "who dwelt by the lonian Gulf" in order to secure his Greek dominions from attack during his absence. The episode is related by Ptolemy Soter in his history of the wars of Alexander. [Ptolemy, a friend, and probably, indeed, half-brother, of Alexander, was doubtless present when this incident took place. His work has not survived, but is quoted by Arrian and other historians.] It has a vividness which stamps it as a bit of authentic history, and another singular testimony to the truth of the narrative has been brought to light by de Jubainville. As the Celtic envoys, who are described as men of haughty bearing and great stature, their mission concluded) were drinking with the king, he asked them, it is said, what was the thing they, the Celts, most feared. The envoys replied : "We fear no man : there is but one thing that we fear, namely, that the sky should fall on us; but we regard nothing so much as the friendship of a man such as thou." Alexander bade them farewell, and, turning to his nobles, whispered: "What a vainglorious people are these Celts !" Yet the answer, for all its Celtic bravura and flourish, was not without both dignity and courtesy. The reference to the falling of the sky seems to give a glimpse of some primitive belief or myth of which it is no longer possible to discover the meaning. [One is reminded of the folk-tale about Henny Penny, who went to tell the king that the sky was falIing] The national oath by which the Celts bound themselves to the observance of their covenant with Alexander is remarkable. If we observe not this engagement," they said, "may the sky fall on us and crush us, may the earth gape and swallow us up, may the sea burst out and overwhelm us." De Jubainville draws attention most appositely to a passage from the "Táin Bo Cuailgne," in the Book of Leinster, [The Book of Leinster is a manuscript of the twelfth century. The version of the " Táin " given in it probably dates from the eighth. See de Jubainville, " Premiers Habitants," ii. 316.] where the Ulster heroes declare to their king, who wished to leave them in battle in order to meet an attack in another part of the field "Heaven is above us, and earth beneath us, and the sea is round about us. Unless the sky shall fall with its showers of stars on the ground where we are camped, or unless the earth shall be rent by an earthquake) or unless the waves of the blue sea come over the forests of the living world, we shall not give ground." [Dr. Douglas Hyde in his "Literary History of Ireland " (p.7) gises a slightly different translation] This survival of a peculiar oath-formula or more than a thousand years, and its reappearance, after being first heard of among the Celts of Mid-Europe, in a mythical romance of Ireland, is certainly most curious, and, with other facts which we shall note hereafter, speaks strongly for the community and persistence of Celtic culture.[it is also a testimony to the close accuracy of the narrative of Ptolemy.] I see a similarity with the Reed's oath in that if the Celts failed in holding up their end of the bargain, they were calling on the forces of nature to bring about a punishment. This is exactly, what i proposed in the magic thread,where a oath of bonding and punishment was invoked. Should either part transgress " fire and ice" will be the punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 IMO, the crown of the North symbolizes the joining of the Ironborn with the First Men.The bronze circlet represents the first men, the black iron swords represent the ironborn.The oath of the Reeds, probably dates back to when Greywater Watch was tied in with the Iron Islanders. Anyone else see the connection: Greywater watch? House Greyjoy?, House Greyiron?ThusI swear it by earth (First Men) and water (Ironborn)I swear it by bronze (First Men) and iron (Ironborn)I swear it by ice (First Men) and fire (Ironborn)The seastone chair is described as a block of oily black stone carved into the shape of a kraken.Now listen to this description of the outer walls of Moat Cailin: Where once a mighty curtain wall had stood, only scattered stones remained, blocks of black basalt so large it must have taken a hundred men to hoist them into place...Last night's rain had left the huge stones wet and glistening, and the morning sunlight made them look like they were coated in some fine black oil. The other place that basalt is mentioned is when Davos is brought before the Lord of Sweetsister: The guards marched Davos Seaworth across a bridge of black basalt and under an iron portcullis showing signs of rust. Basically, (and I think this topic has been brought up before) I think the Iron Islands at one point encompassed the Neck and the Islands of the sisters, before the land was submerged when the Children called down their curse. I think this land was probably populated by Rhoynes (the real iron makers according to Illyrio) who predate Rhoynes who crossed with Nymeria along with the Andals. They seem to share the same black hair and black eyes of the salty Dornishmen. I think they joined with the First Men during the long night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#Fire and Blood Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Side note........ "Under the sea, the snow falls up" Has anybody else read the Winter-Fell theory? This could be a direct reference to the snow storms and winter truely coming from winter and moving North to assist the Others and their invasion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I and several others can recall this being confirmed in an SSM although we've not yet found it again. Yes, awhile back it was described like this: Valyrians push Rhoynish out, who push Andals out, who invade Westeros. Well, I have never read that anywhere, so I asked for the source and spent some time looking for it, too. Can't find it; haven't heard from anyone else who's found it. Am not sure it exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FainRivers Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I get that the skinchange/warg bond is a different animal (pun intended) than the dragon bond. If it wasn't, we'd have Dany chapters full of dragon dreams. What I'm curious about, is did the special warg bond the Starks have with their DWs start before they actually "joined", for lack of a better term? There's clearly something special in the Stark blood. I guess the point I'm trying to make is I suspect the bond may have started before they found the direwolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornish Neck Tie Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 This is pretty interesting: starkstärk/adjectiveadjective: stark; comparative adjective: starker; superlative adjective: starkest1.severe or bare in appearance or outline."the ridge formed a stark silhouette against the sky"synonyms: sharp, sharply defined, well-focused, crisp, distinct, obvious, evident,clear, clear-cut, graphic, striking More antonyms: fuzzy, indistinct, pleasant, ornateunpleasantly or sharply clear; impossible to avoid."his position on civil rights is in stark contrast to that of his liberal opponent"synonyms: blunt, bald, bare, simple, basic, plain, unvarnished, harsh, grim More antonyms: disguised2.complete; sheer."he came running back in stark terror"synonyms: sheer, utter, complete, absolute, total, pure, downright, out-and-out,outright; More rarecompletely naked.3.archaicliterarystiff, rigid, or incapable of movement."a human body lying stiff and stark by the stream"physically strong or powerful."the dragoons were stark fellows"diredīr/adjectiveadjective: dire; comparative adjective: direr; superlative adjective: direst1.(of a situation or event) extremely serious or urgent."dire consequences"synonyms: terrible, dreadful, appalling, frightful, awful, atrocious, grim, alarming;More (of a warning or threat) presaging disaster."dire warnings about breathing the fumes"synonyms: ominous, gloomy, grim, dismal, unpropitious, inauspicious,unfavorable, pessimistic More I'm new here, so I don't know if anyone else has brought this up before, but one of the lines that stood out to me the most in the whole series was when if I remember correctly Leaf was telling Bran about the plight of the Children, and she said something to the effect of: the problem with Men is that there is no "wolf in the wood" to balance the rapid growth of humans (not sure if she meant just in Westeros or the entire world). I have a theory on the link that connects the Stark family with the Wall, the necessity for a Stark in Winterfell, the Long Night, White Walkers/Others/Wights, "Winter is Coming," Starks manning the Wall, the Pact, Starks possibly tasked with representing "guest right" for humans in Westeros, etc. Maybe the Starks were taught/given the gift of skinchanging/warging (particularly with direwolves) in exchange for protecting the North and the Old Races from the growth of humans which has been pushing them towards extinction. The Stark sigil and connection with direwolves seem to part of their seeming responsibility for protecting the Old Ways in the North; i.e. the Starks were assigned the task of being the "wolf in the wood," the hunters/predators responsible for controlling the populations of Men. White walkers are likely created through some sort of magic involving the sacrifice of a skinchanger in order to give them the body of a White Walker. The White Walkers supposedly first appeared either before written history began being recorded or during its infantile stages. In any case, the First Men were probably the first to learn of the White Walkers and assign a name for them. I actually think that the original use of the term is "Wight Walkers," which fits with the belief that the White Walkers first invaded during the Long Night, leading armies of the dead which they appeared to be leading and/or animating. It seems more likely that the first people who would become familiar with unique and terrifying creatures such as these would name them according to their behavior/function rather than just the color of their bodies. The term "Wight Walker" would fit with them either animating the dead--making the Wights "walk"--or with the idea that they are simply shepherds of the Wights, leading/walking them after the corpses are animated by something else like the Cold (the Winds of Winter haha). I apologize for rambling incoherently, but y'all seem like a really smart group of people and I just wanted to share my general interpretation of what's going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I get that the skinchange/warg bond is a different animal (pun intended) than the dragon bond. If it wasn't, we'd have Dany chapters full of dragon dreams. What I'm curious about, is did the special warg bond the Starks have with their DWs start before they actually "joined", for lack of a better term? There's clearly something special in the Stark blood. I guess the point I'm trying to make is I suspect the bond may have started before they found the direwolves. Dany has had her fair share of Dragondreams,but I've long asserted that it is not direct copy as with the Starks because we are dealing with different animals.But essentially the crux is the same,that is these animals /creatures forging a magical bond with humans.Remove the joining aspect and instead see them as there wolves,that is hard to do i know especially when you have them being physically separate.That is as far as that goes,they are basically the same creature. Think Werewolf except the Stark kids aren't actually turning into wolves.But they are their wolves. Being in proximity to each other activated what was already there.The Stark kids and their wolves were always one being but separated by two barriers the birth matrix and the Wall. This is pretty interesting: stark stärk/ adjective adjective: stark; comparative adjective: starker; superlative adjective: starkest 1. severe or bare in appearance or outline. "the ridge formed a stark silhouette against the sky" synonyms: sharp, sharply defined, well-focused, crisp, distinct, obvious, evident,clear, clear-cut, graphic, striking More antonyms: fuzzy, indistinct, pleasant, ornate unpleasantly or sharply clear; impossible to avoid. "his position on civil rights is in stark contrast to that of his liberal opponent" synonyms: blunt, bald, bare, simple, basic, plain, unvarnished, harsh, grim More antonyms: disguised 2. complete; sheer. "he came running back in stark terror" synonyms: sheer, utter, complete, absolute, total, pure, downright, out-and-out,outright; More rare completely naked. 3. archaicliterary stiff, rigid, or incapable of movement. "a human body lying stiff and stark by the stream" physically strong or powerful. "the dragoons were stark fellows" dire dīr/ adjective adjective: dire; comparative adjective: direr; superlative adjective: direst 1. (of a situation or event) extremely serious or urgent. "dire consequences" synonyms: terrible, dreadful, appalling, frightful, awful, atrocious, grim, alarming;More (of a warning or threat) presaging disaster. "dire warnings about breathing the fumes" synonyms: ominous, gloomy, grim, dismal, unpropitious, inauspicious,unfavorable, pessimistic More I'm new here, so I don't know if anyone else has brought this up before, but one of the lines that stood out to me the most in the whole series was when if I remember correctly Leaf was telling Bran about the plight of the Children, and she said something to the effect of: the problem with Men is that there is no "wolf in the wood" to balance the rapid growth of humans (not sure if she meant just in Westeros or the entire world). I have a theory on the link that connects the Stark family with the Wall, the necessity for a Stark in Winterfell, the Long Night, White Walkers/Others/Wights, "Winter is Coming," Starks manning the Wall, the Pact, Starks possibly tasked with representing "guest right" for humans in Westeros, etc. Maybe the Starks were taught/given the gift of skinchanging/warging (particularly with direwolves) in exchange for protecting the North and the Old Races from the growth of humans which has been pushing them towards extinction. The Stark sigil and connection with direwolves seem to part of their seeming responsibility for protecting the Old Ways in the North; i.e. the Starks were assigned the task of being the "wolf in the wood," the hunters/predators responsible for controlling the populations of Men. White walkers are likely created through some sort of magic involving the sacrifice of a skinchanger in order to give them the body of a White Walker. The White Walkers supposedly first appeared either before written history began being recorded or during its infantile stages. In any case, the First Men were probably the first to learn of the White Walkers and assign a name for them. I actually think that the original use of the term is "Wight Walkers," which fits with the belief that the White Walkers first invaded during the Long Night, leading armies of the dead which they appeared to be leading and/or animating. It seems more likely that the first people who would become familiar with unique and terrifying creatures such as these would name them according to their behavior/function rather than just the color of their bodies. The term "Wight Walker" would fit with them either animating the dead--making the Wights "walk"--or with the idea that they are simply shepherds of the Wights, leading/walking them after the corpses are animated by something else like the Cold (the Winds of Winter haha). I apologize for rambling incoherently, but y'all seem like a really smart group of people and I just wanted to share my general interpretation of what's going on. The red part is my theory on the WWs,but i really like the analogy of the "wolf in the wood" and the position of the Starks in relation to the Old Ways.I don't thik i've ever heard that one before. I long since believed that "the cold" is the only equalizer to this malignant creature that is man. They were a top notch predator and had no natural enemy other than death and each other. So nature synthesized them both in the form of the Wights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Bastard Snow Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Personally I think the children of the forest created either by accident or on purpose the white walkers to combat the threat of man (the creation of the white walkers could be a direct result of magic by the children or might have been a "backlash " from another spell.As for Winterfell's Crypts holding some sinister threat I am not very sure of that as the Starks put a high value on being responsible .That might also be proof there is some evil buried in the Crypts as the Starks might either feel its the responsibility of the family to protect others from it or they might feel that they have a duty to make sure whatever it is stays "dead".Its entirely possible that it is the Nights King (I don't think for a second that he was some hero who fell prey to the passage of time)If so it begs the question of what he really is as Its doubtful he would be a "normal" Wright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 This is exactly, what i proposed in the magic thread,where a oath of bonding and punishment was invoked. Should either part transgress " fire and ice" will be the punishment. That was a huge part of my theory that's since been deleted. I proposed that the White Walkers are the disembodied Old Gods/Greenseers who's trees were destroyed coming to punish Men for breaking the Pact, but the Children sided with the First Men, once the Last Hero came to them as the first Human Greenseer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I just read the first 4 episodes of season 4 synopsis. It states that Mance is marching on the wall and right on his tail are the "undead White Walkers". Come on writer guy, you're not using your brain. Other than that, things seem to be moving very fast vs the books. So I guess I will go buy the dvd 's, since I have not watched the series, and then watch season 4. I also noticed a prescreening in NY sometime in March. And I just returned to Texas from New Jersey recently, only a ferry ride away from Manhattan. Not that its that big a deal to see it early. Just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WierWood Wolf Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 To continue the parallels, is it possible that the Faith arrived in Westeros before the Andals? Christianity did not arrive in Britain with an army but with priests from Ireland, is there an "Edward the Confessor" type hidden away in Westerosi lore? Maybe Baelor the Blessed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 8, 2014 Author Share Posted March 8, 2014 I'm new here, so I don't know if anyone else has brought this up before, but one of the lines that stood out to me the most in the whole series was when if I remember correctly Leaf was telling Bran about the plight of the Children, and she said something to the effect of: the problem with Men is that there is no "wolf in the wood" to balance the rapid growth of humans (not sure if she meant just in Westeros or the entire world). I have a theory on the link that connects the Stark family with the Wall, the necessity for a Stark in Winterfell, the Long Night, White Walkers/Others/Wights, "Winter is Coming," Starks manning the Wall, the Pact, Starks possibly tasked with representing "guest right" for humans in Westeros, etc. Maybe the Starks were taught/given the gift of skinchanging/warging (particularly with direwolves) in exchange for protecting the North and the Old Races from the growth of humans which has been pushing them towards extinction. The Stark sigil and connection with direwolves seem to part of their seeming responsibility for protecting the Old Ways in the North; i.e. the Starks were assigned the task of being the "wolf in the wood," the hunters/predators responsible for controlling the populations of Men. White walkers are likely created through some sort of magic involving the sacrifice of a skinchanger in order to give them the body of a White Walker. The White Walkers supposedly first appeared either before written history began being recorded or during its infantile stages. In any case, the First Men were probably the first to learn of the White Walkers and assign a name for them. I actually think that the original use of the term is "Wight Walkers," which fits with the belief that the White Walkers first invaded during the Long Night, leading armies of the dead which they appeared to be leading and/or animating. It seems more likely that the first people who would become familiar with unique and terrifying creatures such as these would name them according to their behavior/function rather than just the color of their bodies. The term "Wight Walker" would fit with them either animating the dead--making the Wights "walk"--or with the idea that they are simply shepherds of the Wights, leading/walking them after the corpses are animated by something else like the Cold (the Winds of Winter haha). I apologize for rambling incoherently, but y'all seem like a really smart group of people and I just wanted to share my general interpretation of what's going on. No apology necessary and welcome to the board. I disagree that the blue-eyed lot may have originally been called wight walkers, its a quite uneccesary complication with no good reason for changing. Otherwise I'd say your thoughts are pretty much in line with mainstream heresy in so far as there is such a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 8, 2014 Author Share Posted March 8, 2014 Personally I think the children of the forest created either by accident or on purpose the white walkers to combat the threat of man (the creation of the white walkers could be a direct result of magic by the children or might have been a "backlash " from another spell.As for Winterfell's Crypts holding some sinister threat I am not very sure of that as the Starks put a high value on being responsible .That might also be proof there is some evil buried in the Crypts as the Starks might either feel its the responsibility of the family to protect others from it or they might feel that they have a duty to make sure whatever it is stays "dead".Its entirely possible that it is the Nights King (I don't think for a second that he was some hero who fell prey to the passage of time)If so it begs the question of what he really is as Its doubtful he would be a "normal" Wright Again, welcome to the forum. Exactly what is down in the crypts is obviously very much open to debate given that we simply don't know, but on the other hand there is clearly a Stark family secret of some kind which has yet to be revealed; which is one of my chief objectionms to the R+L=J fantasy of this being all about Jon being recognised as a secret Targaryen and riding a dragon to victory over the Others. There is something down there which is far far more important than a mouldy bit of parchment, Rhaegar's harp or a Targaryen wedding cloak (pick all three or delete as appropriate) proving that our boy is really Jon Targaryen, but instead there is something that requires a son of Winterfell to unlock it rather than a son of Valyria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 8, 2014 Author Share Posted March 8, 2014 Maybe Baelor the Blessed Certainly fits the "Edward the Confessor" mould, but as he was a Targaryen king he can hardly have brought the Faith to Westeros ahead of the main Andal invasion. :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I'm not sure .... I kinda' lost track after I tried to joke it off with her and she went nuclear. I felt like I had a ferret chewing on my ankles. :rotf:... and no, I'm not going DB Cooper again. :) Ferret. . . now I'll never be able to take anything she says seriously! :) On first read, I liked Dagda's idea. But on further consideration, I'm with TheTOJ. And the thing that leads me to believe they are connected is the apparent tendency of wargs and skinchangers to desire that their human bodies be consumed by their animal partners after death. Varamyr mentions this explicitly in ADWD prologue, and Archmaester Walgrave has apparently expressed this wish as well. I think there was a report that the Old Bear's crow ate his eyes after his death at Craster's - though it's a bit unsupported to think Mormont himself was a skinchanger. More likely, if that particular crow works with Bloodraven, the eye-removal was something of a courtesy. :cool4: it's an interesting desire, one I'd never considered I certainly never saw that one coming. I always wondered about Darry! I've got this theory that when Arya comes back to Westeros, as a Faceless [Wo]Man, she'll meet Nymeria and remember who she is, a Stark. Needle helps, but I think she already knows she's Arya of House Stark. Arya hasn't forgotten who she is at all. Otherwise, she wouldn't work so hard to obfiscate it to the kindly man. Who she is is not something that can be taken away, not now that she clearly recognizes her wolf dreams and calls herself the Night Wolf. No one is just another face she can put on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of Winters Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Needle helps, but I think she already knows she's Arya of House Stark. Arya hasn't forgotten who she is at all. Otherwise, she wouldn't work so hard to obfiscate it to the kindly man. Who she is is not something that can be taken away, not now that she clearly recognizes her wolf dreams and calls herself the Night Wolf. No one is just another face she can put on.Who's to say she won't forget part of who she is when her training and having spent more time with the Faceless Men.Anyhow, I think that Nymeria will eventually come back I to her storyline and be of some importance. I had this crackpot theory that she'd use her warging ability to lead the wolves Nymeria commands North to Winterfell or the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Why assume the Faceless Men even want her to forget who she is. So far everything they have done has reinforced her sense of identity and enhanced her warging abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 8, 2014 Author Share Posted March 8, 2014 Who's to say she won't forget part of who she is when her training and having spent more time with the Faceless Men.Anyhow, I think that Nymeria will eventually come back I to her storyline and be of some importance. I had this crackpot theory that she'd use her warging ability to lead the wolves Nymeria commands North to Winterfell or the Wall. Indeed, the She-Wolf of Winterfell returned again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Who's to say she won't forget part of who she is when her training and having spent more time with the Faceless Men.Anyhow, I think that Nymeria will eventually come back I to her storyline and be of some importance. I had this crackpot theory that she'd use her warging ability to lead the wolves Nymeria commands North to Winterfell or the Wall. After all this time and effort spent on her trying on names, but at the core, remaining Arya and naming herself, at last, the Night Wolf? If anything, she's going through a process much like Needle did in its forging-- a process whereupon the identity Arya is getting refined, and all the unneccessary bits burned away. What's left is solid steel. I do agree about the possibility of meeting up with Nymeria if she does return to Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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