The problem with the series post ASOS

[Fanless Mace]

1. Dany's storyline. Let's be honest, it's complete rubbish and it's very hard to care about Meereen at all.

Let's be honest: That's a valid opinion that not all of us share. I think Dany's story is only a bit slow, and I for one am still captivated by the Meereen plot line. I like how we see a contrast in politics from Westrosian society, in warfare (mercenary armies in the fore rather than sworn swords), myriad religeons and business interests, the evolution of the dragons, the vying for Dany's attentions and marriage...and the fact that WW1 is about to go down there.

2. The fact that GRRM split the story. It causes so many problems. When you first read AFFC you inevitably just want to know what's happened to Jon and Tyrion, which distracts you from all the new characters. Leaving cliffhangers hanging for a whole book was a terrible idea. Also, AFFC is dominated by Cersei chapters, and ADWD by Dany chapters, which gets too much after a while. Why couldn't he just edit them together into one book?

Generally agreed, but I had the fortune of reading the books just last year, so I personally had no lag between them waiting to hear about Jon and Tyrion etc. Still, I wonder how hard it would be to juggle the chapters of the two books to read them as one? I think I saw a thread with an outline for how to approach that with no spoilers.

[Fat Trell]

The more I reread the series, the more I enjoy aFfC and aDwD. They are beautifully drawn studies of character and setting.

Plus I feel as if showing us the nonstop slaughter and pillage of aCoK and aSoS without showing the, mostly failed, attempts to rebuild and salvage something from the ash would have been a cop out on GRRM's part.

[Fanless Mace]

GRRM on this topic, in case you haven't seen this:

"Well no, some of the storylines from Feast for Crows. I get complaints sometimes that nothing happens — but they're defining "nothing," I think, differently than I am. I don't think it all has to battles and sword fights and assassinations. Character development and [people] changing is good, and there are some tough things in there that I think a lot of writers skip over. I'm glad I didn't skip over these things.

"[For example], things that Arya is learning. The things Bran is learning. Learning is not inherently an interesting thing to write about. It's not an easy thing to write about. In the movies, they always handle it with a montage. Rocky can't run very fast. He can't catch the chicken. But then you do a montage, and you cut a lot of images together, and now only a minute later in the film, Rocky is really strong and he is catching the chicken."

http://observationdeck.io9.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845

[Cas Stark]

GRRM on this topic, in case you haven't seen this:

"Well no, some of the storylines from Feast for Crows. I get complaints sometimes that nothing happens — but they're defining "nothing," I think, differently than I am. I don't think it all has to battles and sword fights and assassinations. Character development and [people] changing is good, and there are some tough things in there that I think a lot of writers skip over. I'm glad I didn't skip over these things.

"[For example], things that Arya is learning. The things Bran is learning. Learning is not inherently an interesting thing to write about. It's not an easy thing to write about. In the movies, they always handle it with a montage. Rocky can't run very fast. He can't catch the chicken. But then you do a montage, and you cut a lot of images together, and now only a minute later in the film, Rocky is really strong and he is catching the chicken."

http://observationdeck.io9.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845

That's some rationalizing by the author if you ask me. Brienne is the same person she was when we met her: dogged, loyal, brave and honest. Therefore, her entire book of traveling around Westeros didn't advance either the character or the plot. The same goes for the Tyrion Lannister tour of Essos. We didn't need this much pointless detail, let alone the side plots of captured/recaptured/captured again in order to see him begin to come out of his funk.

[Jamie Lannister]

To be fair, ASoS was a tough act to follow. It was game-changing, explosive, swiftly paced (at least in the second half), and this was before the story split its characters in two. It was a great way to change the playing board and made some very ambitious promises for characters like Tyrion and Sansa and Zombie Cat.

Did AFFC and Dance deliver? Sure... a lot of us had just hyped up the pay-off a bit too much.

[Northernmonkey]

Let's be honest: That's a valid opinion that not all of us share. I think Dany's story is only a bit slow, and I for one am still captivated by the Meereen plot line. I like how we see a contrast in politics from Westrosian society, in warfare (mercenary armies in the fore rather than sworn swords), myriad religeons and business interests, the evolution of the dragons, the vying for Dany's attentions and marriage...and the fact that WW1 is about to go down there.

Generally agreed, but I had the fortune of reading the books just last year, so I personally had no lag between them waiting to hear about Jon and Tyrion etc. Still, I wonder how hard it would be to juggle the chapters of the two books to read them as one? I think I saw a thread with an outline for how to approach that with no spoilers.

We'll have to disagree about the Meereen storyline, but I think the general consensus is that it's by far the weakest part of the books.

I also didn't read the books until last year, so I wasn't talking about waiting for the next book to come out. What I meant was that the end of ASOS is so utterly compelling (Jon and Tyrion's storylines especially) that to suddenly have a book-long gap before seeing them again is just annoying, and it makes it harder to focus on Brienne, Arianne etc.

And someone has come up with a way of reading AFFC and ADWD side by side. I haven't tried it yet but I'm planning to do so on my next re-read.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I liked Brienne's journey a lot. Totally old school Tolkien stuff, just going from town to town and meeting peculiar creatures.

Personally I like Brienne's POV's I quite like Jon Conn as a character too. I quite liked the slower pace of AFFC and ADWD, I found some of the fleshing out of Essos to be quite interesting.

Agree with both. It's a bit of fresh air away from the rotten mess that is KL. I like Brienne along with Pod and Hyle Hunt.

And I also like JonCon and I love he's, after all, a classic romantic hero (only that he doesn't do it for a lady). I like that he's a wild card and completely the opposite to Dany. He and Aegon had done in half a book what Dany hasn't in five because they have the support from Westeros unlike her.

[Roxy Carmichael]

I think it's the opposite.

Too many ideas. He hasn't lost interest, he has lost focus and discipline. He is no longer willing to edit out things for the sake of the flow of the story or the coherence of the individual books. He has lost control of the plot and can't figure out how to reel it back in.

I agree that he's lost focus and the story has unraveled.

When I say "out of ideas," I mean that he's doing the same things over and over: cliff hangers, catch phrases, characters "brought back from the dead", sex scenes that feel shoe-horned and gratuitous, etc.

There are a couple thousand pages between AFFC and ADWD - that's nearly enough room for LOTR and War and Peace - and yet how far has the plot of the series advanced? Has anything major been resolved since ASOS? Do the Others seem like a threat yet? Is Dany on her way to Westeros? Does anybody seem to care that Aegon is in the Stormlands? Has Arya killed anybody relevant to the plot?

Theon, Selmy, and Manderly were great, and felt more like the old Martin.

"This one was three bitches and a bastard." I'm sure. And it comes across to the reader.

[Fanless Mace]

That's some rationalizing by the author if you ask me. Brienne is the same person she was when we met her: dogged, loyal, brave and honest. Therefore, her entire book of traveling around Westeros didn't advance either the character or the plot. The same goes for the Tyrion Lannister tour of Essos. We didn't need this much pointless detail, let alone the side plots of captured/recaptured/captured again in order to see him begin to come out of his funk.

Some of us enjoyed Tyrion Tour more than others, I suppose. Look, these aren't my two favorite books of the series, but I guess I'm just not that picky, I thoroughly enjoyed the read. I feel lucky that GRRM gives us the level of detail he does. Imagine if he'd just written one book, as he'd started out to do. Character, plot, crises, denouement, we're done. No, I prefer the slog. I like being in the muck and the mire.

And if Tyrion did a whole bunch a learnin' and growin' and stuff in every book, I'd be very disappointed.

I think he's a brilliant tour guide, and through his eyes we've learned about Illyrio's deeper involvement with Varys in Westrosian politics, the (F)Aegon plot, the history and geography of Essos, the Penny plot line (what can I say, I like Penny), the Jorah-will-do-anything-to-fuck-Dany plot, details on some of the massing of mercenaries surrounding Meereen...and we've really built some tension around finding out where whores go (not!). Doesn't work for everyone, okay, but it works for me.

[Chatty Duelist]

1. Lack of good pacing: Post-ASOS is a fucking slog compared to AGOT or ACOK.

2. Splitting the POVs: GRRM has added PoV's we didn't need, Arianne could just as well replace Areo, too many Greyjoys, Brienne is unnecessary, Dany is boring (more than usual), Tyrion as well. Had he not crammed so many, the book would be a great deal shorter.

3. Again, the pace sucks.

4. No action, the battle on ice could have been crammed into ADWD, the trial could have been resolved earlier, the Aegon arc should have been shorter.

5. The pacing

6. Did i mention the pacing?

[Fanless Mace]

We'll have to disagree about the Meereen storyline, but I think the general consensus is that it's by far the weakest part of the books.

I also didn't read the books until last year, so I wasn't talking about waiting for the next book to come out. What I meant was that the end of ASOS is so utterly compelling (Jon and Tyrion's storylines especially) that to suddenly have a book-long gap before seeing them again is just annoying, and it makes it harder to focus on

And someone has come up with a way of reading AFFC and ADWD side by side. I haven't tried it yet but I'm planning to do so on my next re-read.

Since I read the last two back to back, it didn't feel any different than The Two Towers, which splits the narrative into two books following different members of the Fellowship. That's all I'm saying. I know I would feel different for sure if I read them when they came out, each one.

Does anyone recall / can anyone provide a link to a suggested chapter-by-chapter read of the last two books?

[Cas Stark]

I agree that he's lost focus and the story has unraveled.

When I say "out of ideas," I mean that he's doing the same things over and over: cliff hangers, catch phrases, characters "brought back from the dead", sex scenes that feel shoe-horned and gratuitous, etc.

There are a couple thousand pages between AFFC and ADWD - that's nearly enough room for LOTR and War and Peace - and yet how far has the plot of the series advanced? Has anything major been resolved since ASOS? Do the Others seem like a threat yet? Is Dany on her way to Westeros? Does anybody seem to care that Aegon is in the Stormlands? Has Arya killed anybody relevant to the plot?

Theon, Selmy, and Manderly were great, and felt more like the old Martin.

"This one was three bitches and a bastard." I'm sure. And it comes across to the reader.

Ah, okay, then I agree. It's strange, though, you know, for an author whose alleged problem was the 5 year gap, that even instead of sticking to filling in that time, he instead stuffed the books with sooo much detail that doesn't have to do with anything, it just exists because, in my opinion, he wrote it at some time and can't cut it.

Definitely there is beautiful writing in both books. Theon's story in particular. Even a lot of Brienne's story is sort of interesting on an academic level, once you give up expecting anything to happen. But, that's not how a novel is supposed to work, if you are going to have interminable detail, at least reward the reader with some kind of beginning/middle/end, thematic consistency or plot advancement. I just didn't see it in the last two books. They feel much more like random chapters he wrote about these characters, and other random POVs he wrote that aren't related or necessary...and at the end of the day..Dany is in Essos, not close to leaving, Arya is in Braavos, not close to leaving, Sansa has been sitting at the Eyrie doing nothing important, Tyrion went on an adventure tour of no major importance to the story and still hasn't met Dany...nothing happens with Brienne until her last chapter.....

It's more like two books of filler punctuated by the occasional plot point.

[Faydra]

We have Cersei to compensate for everything.

[A Song of Tyrion's member]

I haven't read all the posts, but I just want to say that we can't really judge how books 4 and 5 fit in a series that isn't complete. One could finish the last page of the last book and then realize books 4 and 5 were necessary and come to realize how well they did fit into the series.

[Don Roberto]

I can't possibly understand how people think Tyrion's storyline was boring. I can understand for Brienne (though I loved her quest) and I certainly sympathize with Dany's complains, but Tyrion's was among my favourite parts in ADWD.

AFFC/ADWD are slower, sure, but that was beyond predictable. Even though it's 7 books, this is still a trilogy, only each book was expanded. There's a reason trilogies are so popular, it mimics the three-acts storytelling that's almost ubiquitous in western art. And the second act is usually the slowest, for a variety of reasons. With or without the five years gap, with or without Dorne and the ironborn, it would be irrealisic, and frankly just bad storytelling, to keep the pace of the previous books after the end of ASOS.

(though I do agree with OP that Jon Con's revelation was quite out of the blue and didn't pack the punch it was supposed to)

[Valyrian Spoon]

Agree with both. It's a bit of fresh air away from the rotten mess that is KL. I like Brienne along with Pod and Hyle Hunt.

And I also like JonCon and I love he's, after all, a classic romantic hero (only that he doesn't do it for a lady). I like that he's a wild card and completely the opposite to Dany. He and Aegon had done in half a book what Dany hasn't in five because they have the support from Westeros unlike her.

I have to agree with you on Jon Conn, one of my favourite passages in all the books is when he recalls looking over the lands around Griffins Roost with Rhaegar.

I just found it really poignant.

I also really enjoyed Jaimes chapters in these books. Despite his past actions I really started to like his character and Journey.

[Sarah Lannister]

As long as the content is good, why complain about prolonging the story? There's nothing wrong with AFFC and ADWD. Most of the criticism is fueled by traumatized Stark supporters. The RW forever devastated these readers. Others, are displeased that the sole focus isn't on Stark characters. The new locations, new characters, new plotlines are great!

[jet199]

I liked Tyrion's travelogue but I don't think it did his character much good although that depends on what GRRM wants to do with him. If he is meant to be a raging, hateful, vengeful person who is going to use Dany to bring down fire and blood on his sister then the rage didn't really hold up over his arch but if GRRM wants him to mellow gradually and go back to how he was in AGOT then it kind of works. I wonder if this is why we have Penny, so that Tyrion will cause her death and that will send him off the deep end and undo any of the good trying to protect her did for his character. GRRM may have seen the affect the journey was having so decided to give Tyrion a false spring then rip it away

I didn't mind the Meereenese knot. If anyone was due a power-trip cold turkey it was Dany. But, again, she seems to give up ruling after she gets married which is 6-7 months into her reign. It makes her look like she has no stamina which is not what we have seen from her in previous books. She goes from young Rhaegar reincarnated to old Bobby Baratheon in half a year. I don't think the 5 year gap would have made everyone happy but it wouldn't hurt to stretch things out a bit more here and there.

This won't happen in the beginning of the next book, the battle for Meereen should be a relatively short event but it already has about 5 known chapters. However once we get into true TWOW territory, and a few POVs meet up, it could start moving a bit quicker. I certainly think that Dany will start travelling to Westeros in the next book (optimist) but first she has do some stuff with crones, get back to Meereen and then move a huge army so that should take quite a while even with dragons and the Iron Fleet. Even if the next book covers just another 8 months it will still mean there is more time between individual POV chapters than in AFFC/ADWD.

[kilthan]

I enjoyed both books. But I do think they would have been better spilt, not by character/location, but by time. The only story-line I found lacking was Dany's. It reminded me, in a bad way, of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, or, as I call it, Harry Potter and the Unbearable Teen Angst. To be fair, Dany isn't so much angsty as moony. She devolved from teen queen to teen valley girl. I understand that 'Teens making teen mistakes' is both a real thing and a valid literary trope, but... I just don't like reading it. Its good writing, and I like the non-Dany POVs in Meereen. Teen drama/angst/stupidity tires me, and it tired me when I was a teen.

There is a progression in Tyrion's chapters, its not just a travelogue. He starts out in a depression, comes out of it, but not into the Tyrion we knew, but into a version of his father. Tyrion stared into the abyss, and he blinked.

Brienne has grown as well. When we first met her would have let the BWB hang her rather than betray an oath. Now, however, she doesn't want to betray Jamie, but Pod and Hyle the DIckish don't deserve to die because ZombiCat thinks she foreswore.

Cersei's chapters left me with a feeling of disquiet. I know women like her, and all of their problems are self inflicted. They're just smart enough to over estimate their abilities, and suffer for it. Martin has captured that attitude perfectly, and that is what is so unsettling about it.

i'm not sure, really, why we have the multiple Dorne POVs. Part, I think, was to drive home the fact that Dorne is going to be playing a larger part in the series now. Aerys Oakhart was the prologue, IIRC, so he hardly counts. Arrianne, for a large part, seems to represent the reader, thinking that Dorne is nothing to worry about since, in the course of the book, we had only seen them do three things: Have one prince die at the Trident, one princess die during the sack of King's Landing, and another prince die when a Mountain fell on him. Areo seems to be there to give us a peek at the true depths of Doran's planning. Quenten, I think, was the Male counterpart to Sansa as the typical Fantasy Character. The unlikely hero coming in, saving the day, slaying riding dragons. And much like Sansa's chapters turn convention on their head (life is not like songs), Quenten's does the same: The unsuited, unskilled, unremarkable man doesn't suddenly become a hero, he dies horribly because he believed the rubbish from the tales of his childhood.

I hate the names of the Masters of Slaver's Bay, and agree with Archibald Ironwood: they are all Harzoo.

I also really liked Ser Baristan's chapters. Its clear he thinks he's in over his head, but that he's a better player of the game then he thinks. He suspects Hizdar and the Green Grace both of being the Harpy, both of which are plausible. He doesn't trust the Yunkai, and wants to shatter the peace with them. he knows he's too old to bring the captives out alive (if they haven't been flung over the wall already), so he has the knights set to do it instead.

Just because there are no battles doesn't mean there is nothing happening. Everything involving slavers bay is about pushing Dany to march towards Westeros. The North is the preperation for the coming of the Others (or, not being prepared, as Jon's worry more about saving everyone rather than holding the wall shows. Sending a large part of your strength to save women and children is noble, but won't help you hold the Wall. Leading wildlings south might slay Ramsey Bolton, but won't help you hold the Wall). King's Landing, (f?)Aegon, Cersei, Euron, etc, is all about how close to the edge of the Abyss the south really is.

When everything goes to hell in TWoW, the pacing, and set-ups of AFfC and ADwD will make sense, I think.

[coil]

I have a slight problem with the series after the end of ASOS, like a lot of people I guess.

I find that AFFC and ADWD just don’t feel quite right.

Heres why:

Brienne POV – I feel this was never planned by GRRM originally and he has created it in order to solve some sort of problem... Maybe Jaimie meeting Stoneheart. The whole thing feels tacked on and I think Brienne is a much better foil for Jaimie than a POV character in her own right. Shes so one dimensional it almost hurts. Dont get me wrong, I like her, but really, do I have to read her thoughts?

Aegon and Jon Con – Firstly, I think Jon Con is a complete bolt from the blue. I cannot see any forshadowing for him and when he revealed him self, I was thinking ‘Who is Jon Con? I cant even remember. Oh, hes an ex Hand of the King from 16 years ago?’. I have a major problem with this. To me, it again feels increidly tacked on and after 4 huge books, I find it hard to care about characters that are introduced in book 5 as much as those in the first. I admit that on a reread, knowing who he is (Thanks ASOIAF Wiki), he is more interesting, but still... He just seems like such a small player in the story and then suddenly hes invading Westeros with the dead crown princes son. Aegon.... I don’t know if GRRM planned this from the start. Ill give him the benefit of the doubt.

Tyrion, Quentin, Brienne – Travellogues. These all just feel like we are killing time waiting for something else to happen. TBH, I did enjoy parts of everyone of these POV’s in the last 2 books.

Basically, I kind of get the impression that after ASOS, GRRM kinda realised that he has made a mistake somewhere and his planned 5 year gap wasn’t a good idea in the first place and he had written himself into a corner and now I feel as if he is kind of just winging it... He knows the end game... but the steps to it from the end of ASOS was not set in stone and the path he has taken isn’t the best it could have been IMO.

Sorry this is a rambling post...

I don’t feel like AFFC or ADWD were part of GRRM original plan and I feel like it really hurts the books.

I do think his writing is better in both books than in the first 3 though. Reek/Theon is magnificent and possibly one of the best things in the entire series. Meereen is an absolute mess and I do wish we spent less time there. I remember a GRRM interview where he is talking about how Aragon ‘Ruled well for 200 years’ and ‘Did he? What was his taxation policy? What was his immigration policy?’. And thats what Meereen is. Its Aragons policy on taxing the orcs or something.

Anyone else feel like this?

Again, apologies for the rambling post.

I respectfully disagree and invite you to reconsider your position!

ASoS is the book I reread the less, and imo its value lies in the surprise factor and fast pacing.

AFfC and ADwD reread factor is way higher due to the slow pacing and explores things that another ASoS couldn't do.