The problem with the series post ASOS

[JesterX]

I have a slight problem with the series after the end of ASOS, like a lot of people I guess.

I find that AFFC and ADWD just don’t feel quite right.

Heres why:

Brienne POV – I feel this was never planned by GRRM originally and he has created it in order to solve some sort of problem... Maybe Jaimie meeting Stoneheart. The whole thing feels tacked on and I think Brienne is a much better foil for Jaimie than a POV character in her own right. Shes so one dimensional it almost hurts. Dont get me wrong, I like her, but really, do I have to read her thoughts?

I have wondered why GRRM would send Brienne off on a little detective adventure in which EVERYONE knows she's completely off the mark. It's almost like GRRM, himself, is making fun of her.

The same with Tyrion. Anyone else ever notice how GRRM always describes him as "waddling" when he walks? You'd expect in-story characters who are trying to be insulting to Tyrion, to make that description but the author?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I have wondered why GRRM would send Brienne off on a little detective adventure in which EVERYONE knows she's completely off the mark. It's almost like GRRM, himself, is making fun of her.

Because she was never expected to find Sansa but someone else and tie her to the Jaime plot.

[Cas Stark]

I just don't see it, there is very little character development for almost anyone, the two exception where we see a true 'arc' of development are Cersei and Theon. Bran and Davos also get some things accomplished without too much excess verbiage.

Brienne, I don't see it, she is the same person she always was. So, that is an entire book's worth of wandering for very little payoff.

Jamie only has a couple of chapters, so okay, but not that much there.

Sansa, we've had two books and not much character development or action, LF is plotting and she's there, that could be summarized in 2 chapters.

Arya, again not much, and I love her, I don't mind her Braavos chapters, but nothing much has changed, you could say she's gotten darker, but that has been going on since book 2. Again, this could have been condensed by at least a third.

Sam. ? Sailing around, blah, blah. Condensed.

Damphair, Areo Hotah, Oakheart and Quentyn. Just Cut Them. If Quentyn's death is going to be a pivotal reason why Dorne doesn't support Dany it could have been done in a flashback.

Tyrion and Dany's POVs, again, condensed by at least a third easily.

Jon, at least stuff happens here, though it remains to be seen how much of the wildling detail is going to be important, probably could have been cut.

I assume Vic is going to play a large role in the future, same with Asha.

Selmy and Mel, okay, for Mel assuming her POV goes forward and wasn't a one off.

I hate Arianne, but will reserve judgement on the POV.

I admit I will be disappointed if the story I have been reading ends up focusing on the Greyjoys and the Martells instead of the Starks.

[kilthan]

I have wondered why GRRM would send Brienne off on a little detective adventure in which EVERYONE knows she's completely off the mark. It's almost like GRRM, himself, is making fun of her.

The same with Tyrion. Anyone else ever notice how GRRM always describes him as "waddling" when he walks? You'd expect in-story characters who are trying to be insulting to Tyrion, to make that description but the author?

Brienne needs a quest. She is the Questing Knight. Like the Knights of Camelot, she is seeking her Grail. For any Questing Knight, its not about the end point, its the Quest itself that is the meaning. So many of Martin's characters are literary tropes in a 'real-ish' world. What happens when a Questing Knight is met with the harsh realities of peasant life? Look at Septon Maribald's speech. That is the point of her story arc. The Questing Knight meeting a world where Honor means less than a scrap of bread or a skin of wine to survive another day. Look at the end of her Arc in a AFfC. She learned that. She gave up her honor to save Podrick and Hyle. Their living another day meant more to her than her own honor. Its not until she looks at Pod that she screams sword.

Tyrion hates himself. He always had. That bit in the beginning about armoring yourself in what they insult you with... Anyone who has been bullied knows that all you are doing when you do that is doing the bully's work for them. They still laugh, they just don't have to take the trouble to mock you. The reality of it hit home for him during his trial. "I am sorry I am not the monster you would make of me." And what do we see after that? He becomes that monster. Armor is nothing but a shell, hiding the man beneath. The man Tyrion was, was a just man who wanted to be loved. The man he is now? Well, look at the treatment of the slaves he encounters. Lying to Jamie, killing his father, poisoning Nurse. Those are actions Tyrion would never have done before the trial. He hates what he has become, and thus he tries to save Penny and Jorah and (f?)Aegon.

[alienarea]

In my opinion GRRM is a good short story writer, science fiction writer, and screenplay / tv show writer.

The first three books of ASoIaF were well received because they are exploding with action all over. Which covers for some bad decisions.

When you look at it is too constructed. It looks to me like GRRM has written about ten to twenty brilliant, movie like scenes and connects them with a story.

Other scenes read like rearranged movie scenes, ToJ is a version of showdown at O.K. choral?

Normally, after a successfull rebellion, none of the previous power players stay in place. Remove Varys after Robert's rebellion and the plot falls apart.

Most of this shows in AFfC and ADwD. Too many cliffhangers, new mysteries and barely a resolved quest.

As the tv show demonstrated that most of the main characters are too young in the books, which lead to the five year gap, which got scrapped.

I do not believe GRRM will finish the series. He's waiting for tv to finish it for him and he will publish some brilliant chapters in a wrap up collection.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The first three books are the war. GoT is the setting up, Clash is the war itself and Storms is the final cut at the throat.

Feast and Dance are the leftovers of the war and how people is surviving and reorganizing to either survive or strike back, that's why we have so many political conspiracy and more claimants to the throne. In book six, for what I can imply, it's going to be action and fights again before the Winter.

[Chatty Duelist]

I do not believe GRRM will finish the series. He's waiting for tv to finish it for him and he will publish some brilliant chapters in a wrap up collection.

You just went full retard. Never go full retard.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Arya and Dany are too far away from the main action for me to really love what is going on with them. Get them to Westeros quick please

[Fool of a Book]

I cannot see any forshadowing [..] I don’t know if GRRM planned this from the start.

Anyone else feel like this?

I'll agree with this part entirely. The biggest twists had ZERO foreshadowing.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

I think it's also a case of too many characters.

I can only remember so many people at once. Nimble Dick? Erm.... Wtf.

I just wonder... When GRRM was conceiving the story... Did he always envision Jon Con and Aegon? Or did he think "oh that would be cool" when writing ADWD?

I guess ultimately it's his story and I trust in him because he's a fantastic writer.

[JesterX]

Because she was never expected to find Sansa but someone else and tie her to the Jaime plot.

Seems like an awfully long way around, if that's all he GRRM wanted to do. Nevertheless, I enjoyed Brienne's little quest.

[horizon]

The funny thing is that when you go back from ADWD and AFFC to a GOT you'll notice George his writing style has increased immensly. The way he describes landscapes, people, feelings etc is a lot better in the latter books.

Not to dismiss the first three books, because, jee, a Storm of Swords was a book that had such a brilliant fast pace, never ever letting go, even to the last line of the epilogue it sparkled. And I think that a lot of readers miss that fast paced page turning and nail biting effect a Storm of Swords had.

AFFC & ADWD are books as a good red wine, they age well and get better over time.

[Mithras]

Cersei in AGoT is not the woman we read in AFfC. She is definitely going mad.

[JesterX]

The funny thing is that when you go back from ADWD and AFFC to a GOT you'll notice George his writing style has increased immensly. The way he describes landscapes, people, feelings etc is a lot better in the latter books.

Not to dismiss the first three books, because, jee, a Storm of Swords was a book that had such a brilliant fast pace, never ever letting go, even to the last line of the epilogue it sparkled. And I think that a lot of readers miss that fast paced page turning and nail biting effect a Storm of Swords had.

AFFC & ADWD are books as a good red wine, they age well and get better over time.

I'm one who thinks George goes overboard on the descriptions. Can't he just say "character A break his/her fast"? Is it really necessary to describe every dish of every freaking meal that the characters are eating?

[The Prince of Newcastle]

I found it really irritating knowing that Sansa was in the Vale with LF and Brienne was just wondering about the land scape with fucking Nimble Dick. It never felt like it was building to anything but I enjoyed it once she reached the orphanage.

But at the same time, I don't think Brienne works as a POV. I don't think she's as multi faceted a character as any of the original POVs in the first 3 books.

She works well with Jaimie from his POV because of the dynamics of honour etc. With each other.

But she's not interesting enough in herself to warrant a POV IMO. I'm not an author though so I guess my opinions matter little.

She's as deep as the ocean compared to Areo Hotah though.

That is something else I disliked about AFFC and ADWD. Hotah is a camera. All of the characters have acted as cameras at one point or another... Sansa witnessing Selmy get dismissed etc. But everyone else is a character in and of themselves and their chapters are about them and their story.

Hotah is about Doran. Nothing about Hotah matters. He's married to his axe? It doesn't matter because he had nothing to do with the story. He's literally a random guard.

Arianne is fine. I don't mind her but I would rather have had Elaria's POV if I'm honest. But I don't mind her as a POV because she is integral to the events she witnesses for the most part. Hotah just watches. He's the watcher ffs.

Arys was only one chapter and he was stupid but it was a fun chapter I guess.

Damphair was ok. I think people over exaggerate how bad he is. I do hold him more to the Hotah side of things than Tyrion though.

I love Vic. He's stupid but a good change of pace from the usual.

Asha I enjoy and she's the closest I hold any new POV to the original 3 book POVs.

Jon Con.... Too out of the blue but I enjoyed rereading his chapters.

Cersei was silly but still fun to read. Probably better off remaining a none POV IMO.

Quentin was a complete none entity for me. Didn't enjoy his chapters or really fully understand the point of them.

I do feel that since first finishing the books and then coming on this website and having my mind blown by the theories I had entirely missed my self that the new POVs in TWOW will be better as I'm more on board with those characters now than I was when they were introduced.

Also my knowledge of who is who and what people's histories and affiliations are is also much better now after being on this website so it will all make sense. No more "Who the fuck is Jon Con?" Moments hopefully.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

I'm one who thinks George goes overboard on the descriptions. Can't he just say "character A break his/her fast"? Is it really necessary to describe every dish of every freaking meal that the characters are eating?

I like that about his writing. I like how he describes everyone's heraldry and what they are wearing and eating. He's really put some thought into it and all of the regional dishes just add an extra layer of authenticity even if only on a subliminal level if you glaze over the descriptions.

I like the detail. I do really like AFFC and ADWD as well even though I started this thread. The complexity of his writing is breath taking I think. The theories that abound based on the last two books are testament to that. I like the slowness or whatever... The aftermath of the first 3 books.

I love the almost haunted Winterfell. It's absolutely amazing writing. Those snowmen on the battlements and the dug out pathways. The raw timber of the gates and roof. The lack of thousands of years of smoke on the rafters. I'm actually there when I'm reading it it's that well described. It feels real.

Maybe it's just Meereen I don't like. On a reread I didn't really enjoy much of it. And Brienne.

[RoamingRonin]

I'm one who thinks George goes overboard on the descriptions. Can't he just say "character A break his/her fast"? Is it really necessary to describe every dish of every freaking meal that the characters are eating?

You're not alone. It's very tiresome. Especially when you have no clue about what he's describing. A hauberk? A mantlet? A tunic? Sorry, did not study medieval warfare so I have no clue what you're talking about.

I think GRRM doesn't know how to just get to the point some times. As if just delivering the plot would be too easy, he has to hide it in pages upon pages of world building and backstory.

Take for example the chapter in Feast when LF goes on to explain, in depth, why Harry the Heir is Jon Arryn's heir. Instead of having LF just say "Harry is Jon's closest living relative after Robert" we are treated to a dense paragraph about all of Jon Arryn's long dead kin. Why they died, how they died, when they died, etc. Did we really need to know all that? It's practically unbearable to listen to via the audio books. The pay off doesn't even make it worth it.

World building and backstory aren't always bad. Its just we've gone from hearing about the Blackfyres, the Andal invasion and Robert's rebellion to giant turtle gods, Volantis politics and the histories of rivers. Even in the first three books, I can't recall when someone spent paragraph upon paragraph talking about long dead history. In Dance, it happens almost every chapter.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

I like that.

[Lord Reaver]

You're not alone. It's very tiresome. Especially when you have no clue about what he's describing. A hauberk? A mantlet? A tunic? Sorry, did not study medieval warfare so I have no clue what you're talking about.

Well, perhaps you shouldn't be reading a fantasy book set in a pseudo-medieval setting, then ?

Personally, I would find it tiresome, not to say offputting enough to ditch the whole book if Will and Gared had been wearing softshell jackets and thermal underwear complete with ski-masks and snowjogs.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I've always said that asoiaf was destined to be the fantasy series to end all fantasy series...until aFfC. The rambling plot, the glacial pace, the twists coming out of nowhere, the unengaging new characters, the cliffhangers ending in more cliffhangers...I don't know, I'll never truly like aFfC and aDwD. I know for some people they improve on re-reads, but not for me. If anything, some things are worse on re-reads, like knowing Brienne is nowhere near Sansa or that Doran's vengeance is far from happening. I just...I don't know, the unnecessary POVs...ugh

The only things I really, really like from those books are the chapters of Cersei, Theon, Davos, Asha, and Barristan, and that's it.