The problem with the series post ASOS

[Lord Reaver]

That said I still enjoyed DWD very much, and AFFC was still pretty good. I think if he'd switched around which POVs where in which book and condensed things enough to include the Battles of Ice and Fire, he could have gotten two excellent books. He even could have condensed the two + the battles into one amazing book, with a little work.

This. If he'd run the Ironborn storyline + the north leading to the battle of Ice in one and the Essosi one ending with the battle of Meereen in the other, I imagine those would have been two pretty darn books. Instead we had two rather messy ones without any real endings. It's a bit sad, really.

[protar]

This. If he'd run the Ironborn storyline + the north leading to the battle of Ice in one and the Essosi one ending with the battle of Meereen in the other, I imagine those would have been two pretty darn books. Instead we had two rather messy ones without any real endings. It's a bit sad, really.

Yeah I'm thinking he could have had KL and the North (plus Sansa) in AFFC, and Essos plus Dorne in ADWD. The Ironborn plot is difficult to place because it branches into both the Northern and Essosi plot lines, but I'd probably have had the plotline from Asha's POV in Feast, branching into the North and then duplicated the plot from Vic's POV in ADWD, branching off into Essos.

A lot of people would probably argue that that would put ADWD at a significant disadvantage, but Tyrion and Dany remain fan favourites that could carry the book and the Battle of Fire at the end would have really made things a lot more interesting.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

My problem, if you can call it that, is that there is nobody to root for since Ned and Robb died.

[...]

My ultimate problem is the books lack heros. This is why most people love them but not me. I hate watching morally bankrupt people get away with murder. Even in real life karma catches up to people, a guy like Littlefinger strains credibility.

That's why I like JonCon. He kinda plays the role of the "returning hero".

We know he had honour and tried to fight in order to gain the love of the man he love but failed. And he failed because he fought with honour when -probably- he shouldn't. Now, he has raised the son of the man he loved -or so he thinks, we don't know- because he wants to make up for his mistakes. Also, I enjoyed reading the chapter when he returns home after all those years in exile. And now, he might die. GOsh, I hate GRRM. But I love JonCon.

[MegaAIP]

That's why I like JonCon. He kinda plays the role of the "returning hero".

We know he had honour and tried to fight in order to gain the love of the man he love but failed. And he failed because he fought with honour when -probably- he shouldn't. Now, he has raised the son of the man he loved -or so he thinks, we don't know- because he wants to make up for his mistakes. Also, I enjoyed reading the chapter when he returns home after all those years in exile. And now, he might die. GOsh, I hate GRRM. But I love JonCon.

I too liked JonCon and can't wait to see where this story ends up.

In the end it may have hurt the story though.

New targ in aegon seems very out of the blue or an idea that hit him as he wrote and too much of a twist.

[Lord Reaver]

I really don't mind the (f)Aegon twist. Since he killed off Robb, the whole thing seemed to boil down to a clash of Stannis and Daeny. Now, there's another wrench in there, and I like that.

[Woman of War]

So did i and this is likely the reason. I want to see Westeros, not just hear about it. Brienne and Arya show us the real Westeros.

Dude, i dont like Jon Con but i love his chapter(s) loads. Cuz he deals with the outlook a lot of us have been wondering about, Robert's Rebellion and Rhaegar. Plus i like Aegon and i like seeing him. Tyrion's Shy Maid Mystical Journey was some fucking awesome times. (when Tyrion wasnt peeing in everyone's cheerios that is.) I liked Sam's journey to Old Town and his stop in Braavos is the win. I even like Cersei's batshit chapters showing her side of things.

As for Meereen, im engrossed into the Harpy subplot and wish to see it resolved. I was ok with Meereen but Dany hitting roadblock after roadblock (without much elaboration and characterization of said roadblocks) was frustrating. But seeing Meereen itself is interesting (and i think the show is going to make this pretty awesome).

ADWD gives us some of the best writing ive ever seen in the form of Theon's chapters. Omfg. OMFG.

.........Jon, Arya and Tyrion are three of the best heroes in the world of fiction, and none of them are morally bankrupt. Plus there's Bran, Sansa, Sam and Davos to root for.

This

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Dude, i dont like Jon Con but i love his chapter(s) loads. Cuz he deals with the outlook a lot of us have been wondering about, Robert's Rebellion and Rhaegar. Plus i like Aegon and i like seeing him. Tyrion's Shy Maid Mystical Journey was some fucking awesome times. (when Tyrion wasnt peeing in everyone's cheerios that is.) I liked Sam's journey to Old Town and his stop in Braavos is the win. I even like Cersei's batshit chapters showing her side of things.

This too. I did enjoyed JonCon's pov about the Battle of the Bells because, first, we don't actually have many pov from the Targaryens side despite Barristan and number two, I like his perspective about the battle and Robert. I never liked him and well, I kinda enjoyed knowing what happened there.

[kilthan]

What a strange point of view. Jon, Arya and Tyrion are three of the best heroes in the world of fiction, and none of them are morally bankrupt. Plus there's Bran, Sansa, Sam and Davos to root for.

Davos is a great character. He is the everyman. And he shows that even a common man can do the right thing. Saving Edric storm, telling Stannis the truth no matter what, sailing off to an Island of Cannibals to save a child, serve his king, and help the Manderlys keep their oath to always be Stark men.

I disagree with Tyrion being a hero. He has potential, but he has to overcome his training at the hands of his Father.

Jon is the standard, "I must save everyone" hero. Those heroes usually die in the real world too (if Jon is dead), mores the pity. His problem is forgetting his Oath to ride off to WInterfell to face Ramsey Bolton. It wasn't until that decision was made that Marsh & Co tried to kill him, because until he made that decision, he hadn't violated the letter of his Oath, only the spirit.

Arya... Arya is complex. I'm not quite ready to call her a hero. Her sense of justice (killng Dareon because he deserted the NW) is good, but there is a lot of hate there too. hate poisons. Can she overcome that? The FM are trying to get her to, that is part of the point of moving past being 'Arya Stark'. They give the gift of mercy, and hate has no room for mercy.

Sam. Sam the Slayer. Sam is, by far, one of the bravest characters we see. He's afraid, but still does his duty. Slaying the Other was what sold me on Sam as a hero. Not because he slew a monster, but because, when the moment of truth came, he didn't cower in fear, he didn't run, he threw himself into danger to save a friend. He does it again to save Gilly and Monster from UnSmall Paul. Sam's dad thought he failed to make Sam a warrior because he had no skill at arms, but he was wrong. Sam is a warrior, he does what is needed to protect others, regardless of his skill or his fear. I do hope he makes it to the end of the series and survives. I also think him actually having a son by Gilly would be a nice touch.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

After someone said "Brienne in AFFC is like an old school LOTR adventure" I decided to read the chapters again for the first time. I've read most characters chapters a few times but never Brienne because I found it so frustrating that she was going the wrong way.

Anyway... Upon reread I have really enjoyed them. It is an old school adventure. Until Biter eats her face and Stoneheart tries to hang her and her friends anyway.

But yeah, I really appreciate the world building. AFFC & ADWD really contain some amazing world building.

I do still feel they kind of "start again" with th story, but they are meant to I think.

I'd actually forgot a lot of details in Briennes story. Her Bat shield... The Darklyns of Duskendale etc. Great stuff.

I really appreciate the change of pace in AFFC and ADWD which let's face it, are actually one book.

[Nictarion]

I think the problem with dance was it didn't resolve the whole Meereen deal, she is still sitting in Meereen and who knows how long she stays there

Someone didn't read her last 2 chapters apparently.

[Yukle]

Jon is the standard, "I must save everyone" hero. Those heroes usually die in the real world too (if Jon is dead), mores the pity.

If Jon is dead, I stop reading.

[Waylin Stark]

I agree with most of the stuff, but I don't see how Aegon and Jon Con are an unexpected bolt from the blue. Tons of characters in AFfC are that way - the entirety of Dorne and the Ironborn.

It's due to the fact that the first part of the story is over, and the second part has begun, introducing tons of new people with different agendas.

[Yukle]

I agree with most of the stuff, but I don't see how Aegon and Jon Con are an unexpected bolt from the blue. Tons of characters in AFfC are that way - the entirety of Dorne and the Ironborn.

It's due to the fact that the first part of the story is over, and the second part has begun, introducing tons of new people with different agendas.

That assumes that the way the story has unfolded is the ONLY way that the story could have unfolded.

For instance, Dorne need not have been mentioned at all. Similarly, there are other plot devices that could bring Dany to Westeros other than a literal fleet of ships conveniently lying in wait. Aegon's story adds nothing other than a temporary distraction from the story of the Others, the great menacing evil that seems to have gone on holiday.

The Others were imminent and closing in... since the first pages of the series. Years later... and they're seemingly no closer. Drawing the story out has lessened the impact of the most interesting evil awaiting the world.

[horizon]

Hmm, dunno. Perhaps Dorne, the Ironborn etc all have to do with the endgame George has in mind. Perhaps he is writing them so decisions made in the end make more sense.

He needs to tell those stories, otherwise he would have gone through with his initial plan to write a Dance With Dragons in a setting several years after a Storm of Swords.

Someone didn't read her last 2 chapters apparently.

No shizzles.

[Waylin Stark]

The Others were imminent and closing in... since the first pages of the series. Years later... and they're seemingly no closer. Drawing the story out has lessened the impact of the most interesting evil awaiting the world.

I agree. My TV show watching friends are really frustrated with the Others, and every time they appear, they take it as a joke because it's been too drawn out.

Likewise the arrival of Winter.

[Cas Stark]

I agree. My TV show watching friends are really frustrated with the Others, and every time they appear, they take it as a joke because it's been too drawn out.

Likewise the arrival of Winter.

LOL, little do they know that Dany isn't getting to Westeros any time soon either.

[Waylin Stark]

LOL, little do they know that Dany isn't getting to Westeros any time soon either.

No, they gave up on that a long time ago :P

[RedShirt47]

I an see that certain storylines could have used some time to bake, Bran and Arya training or characters (like Brienne) getting from A to B so a gap would have benefitted these. There is the problem of aligning all storylines into a place where they can all skip ahead a fw month without people asking where was Tyrion for three months? What did Littlefinger do for those four months?
If there were only five or six plotlines then this could be done but there are too many in these books to ever do a time jump.

I think the only problem with FFC and DwD is that there is no WoW nor DoS. If all seven books were published and you could go straight from DwW into WoW then few would complain. Granted I've only gone through all the books once so I don't have to put up with another Dany chapter about dragons eating sheep for a while.

Recently, to fill the gap while we wait, I got through all 14 books of Wheel of Time. Books 6 to 10 dragged quite a bit but once the story picked up again around book 11 I didn't really care about those books anymore. I can well imagine that had I had to wait for book 10 or 11 I might have been disgruntled by the previous lull in the action.