Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 No, he did not, he acted under his brother's name to talk to the Stormlord. The Mountain was ordered by Tywin to kill Aegon and Elia, was Aemond ordered to do such a thing ? No? Okay then. Tywin never said to Mountain to kill Elia the children yes. So, like Tywin is the one to blame about Elia's death then Aegon II is the one to blame for Lucerys' death. Read my post - I said he married Rhaenyra against Viserys' will, not hers. This was in answer to someone who posted that Daemon was a dutiful younger brother He was after a fashion. He could had killed Viserys' children :cough Spoilers cough: and become the King. So after a fashion he was. He was sent to treat not to kill, its hardly the same as what the Mountain was sent to do. If Cat went insane and had killed Stannis and Renly at the parley at Storm's End would that have counted Robb's orders Mountain had been send to kill the children not Elia and Oberyn wants the hean not the hand. It's the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Tywin never said to Mountain to kill Elia the children yes. So, like Tywin is the one to blame about Elia's death then Aegon II is the one to blame for Lucerys' death. Yeah he did, that is why the mounatin and Lorch climbed that wall, he never does something without Tywin's will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Yeah he did, that is why the mounatin and Lorch climbed that wall, he never does something without Tywin's will. We must have different books, in my books it was never mentioned. It's not like Elia was holding Aegon and he wanted the child dead, he got there to kill Elia... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illrede Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 I'd say "they both fought as dirty as they could", ala The Walrus and the Carpenter, but by the end of tPatQ they really didn't.Aegon shaped up a little, crippled morphine addict that he was. Rhaenyra found in herself reserves of physical and moral cowardice and desolation.Which is to say her kids were darn lucky it was a constantly in agony, chased out of his capital, had a child murdered *uncle* they were in the power of after they mortally wounded his dragon or walked into his trap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 We must have different books, in my books it was never mentioned. It's not like Elia was holding Aegon and he wanted the child dead, he got there to kill Elia... Everyone knows he did it, why? Because it is goddamn obvious. Tell me, did Aegon order his brother to kill Lucerys or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Everyone knows he did it, why? Because it is goddamn obvious. Tell me, did Aegon order his brother to kill Lucerys or not? Did Tywin told Mountain to kill Elia and if it did where it is mentioned? On the other hand an envoy acts at the name of the X party he represents meaning that what Aemond did was the actions of the Green's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Did Tywin told Mountain to kill Elia and if it did where it is mentioned? On the other hand an envoy acts at the name of the X party he represents meaning that what Aemond did was the actions of the Green's. The Mountain didn't even admit it until after he killed Oberyn that he did it. The fact remains it is obvious. Aemond was given orders to do something, he does something else isn't the fault of the Greens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 The Mountain didn't even admit it until after he killed Oberyn that he did it. The fact remains it is obvious. No text, I see. Aemond was given orders to do something, he does something else isn't the fault of the Greens. Again. An envoy acts by the name of the party he represents, Aemond was an envoy and he killed another envoy who guess what mentioned that is an envoy not a knight, yes the Greens are to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 No text, I see. Again. An envoy acts by the name of the party he represents, Aemond was an envoy and he killed another envoy who guess what mentioned that is an envoy not a knight, yes the Greens are to blame. Save Oberyn putting it together as well as Tyrion, it was a obvious thing. To do the task they sent him to do. Aemond was to blame, not Aegon or his wife, or his six year old son, or six year old daughter, or his two old daughter. Daemon instead of seeking vengeance on who actually did it went to kill someone completely not involve, he deserves to burn with tywin in the seven hells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Save Oberyn putting it together as well as Tyrion, it was a obvious thing. To do the task they sent him to do. Aemond was to blame, not Aegon or his wife, or his six year old son, or six year old daughter, or his two old daughter. Daemon instead of seeking vengeance on who actually did it went to kill someone completely not involve, he deserves to burn with tywin in the seven hells. Aemond acted as Aegon's envoy. In Borros' court he was Aegon, the same happened when he murdered Lucerys like a deer, he was Aegon's voice. And that is the end of my responses to this trollish discussion about what an envoy means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Consider this; if Jon Snow had sent Bowen Marsh to treat with Tormund, and when he arrives, the Weeper is there, and then Bowen kills the Weeper, is that death then on Jon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 I think in terms of single incidents, Blood and Cheese takes the cake. However, taken together as a whole, it's the Greens, for usurping the throne in the first place despite Viserys I unambiguously wanting Rhaenyra to succeed him and committing atrocities like burning through the Riverlands. Both sides executed enemy lords they captured, so that's a wash. I think the Blacks fought more evenly, however, I think some of that was down to opportunity. For instance, it was easier for Aemond to burn the Riverlands than for the Blacks to burn the Westerlands and the Reach, which were further from their home base. They also lacked a dragon of Vhagar's size. But in the end we can only judge based on what was done. I also agree with Lord Varys that Aegon II's "reluctance" to take the throne reeks to the sky. I'm a Blacks supporter overall, but I came away from the novellas thinking that both sides were pretty awful and that the country was better off with neither of them. Nobody looks good here: Viserys I looks spineless, Aemond's a sociopath, Daemon might be one too, Rhaenyra and Aegon II were spoiled little brats, Alicent and the Hightowers were conniving and grasping. The only one of the main lot who seems devoid of blame is Helaena and she ended up suffering more than any of them. Consider this; if Jon Snow had sent Bowen Marsh to treat with Tormund, and when he arrives, the Weeper is there, and then Bowen kills the Weeper, is that death then on Jon? I'm sure someone on this board would find a way to blame it on Jon, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Consider this; if Jon Snow had sent Bowen Marsh to treat with Tormund, and when he arrives, the Weeper is there, and then Bowen kills the Weeper, is that death then on Jon? If Bowen was able to kill Weeper I would pay to be in the first row to see it. But yes this is how it works, the envoy when is there is the person who (s)he represents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 I'm sure someone on this board would find a way to blame it on Jon, yes. I was asking JQC because I feel that she is wrong saying Aemond made all of the Green's responsible for Luke's death. If Bowen was able to kill Weeper I would pay to be in the first row to see it. But yes this is how it works, the envoy when is there is the person who (s)he represents. But you have no control over them. Its not as though they are a mindless puppet on a strong. People have free will. The Greens could not have foreseen that Aemond would kill Luke (and I say this as a Black supporter btw. I pin Luke's death entirely on Aemond) because: a) they did not know Luke would be there and b) Aemond is capable of acting in unpredictable ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 But you have no control over them. Its not as though they are a mindless puppet on a strong. People have free will. The Greens could not have foreseen that Aemond would kill Luke (and I say this as a Black supporter btw. I pin Luke's death entirely on Aemond) because: a) they did not know Luke would be there and B) Aemond is capable of acting in unpredictable ways. And that is why you should take extra care about who are the politicians that will represent you. If you know that someone is unstable and unpredictable you don't send him as an envoy because as I said before, when he is in whatevertown he isn't Aemond he is Aegon's "voice". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anath Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Hmm, I must be mistaken. I'm fairly sure I've seen lots of posters condemning Robert for not punishing Tywin and his henchmen for what happened to Elia and the children but Aemond walking away scot free is somehow totally normal and justified. Must have been my glasses, for sure. Damn it, I'll have to buy a new pair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Aemond acted as Aegon's envoy. In Borros' court he was Aegon, the same happened when he murdered Lucerys like a deer, he was Aegon's voice. And that is the end of my responses to this trollish discussion about what an envoy means. No he was not, Aegon and his mother sent him with a purpose, that purpose was to speak with one person, not to kill anyone, what he did was beyond what Aegon sent him to do. Him acting as his voice, was just that, acting as his voice to Baratheon, your pretending aegon even knew Lucerys was there, he didn't, Aemond went rogue and did something he was not okay to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illrede Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 I think in terms of single incidents, Blood and Cheese takes the cake. However, taken together as a whole, it's the Greens, for usurping the throne in the first place despite Viserys I unambiguously wanting Rhaenyra to succeed him and committing atrocities like burning through the Riverlands. Both sides executed enemy lords they captured, so that's a wash. I think the Blacks fought more evenly, however, I think some of that was down to opportunity. For instance, it was easier for Aemond to burn the Riverlands than for the Blacks to burn the Westerlands and the Reach, which were further from their home base. They also lacked a dragon of Vhagar's size. But in the end we can only judge based on what was done. I also agree with Lord Varys that Aegon II's "reluctance" to take the throne reeks to the sky. I'm a Blacks supporter overall, but I came away from the novellas thinking that both sides were pretty awful and that the country was better off with neither of them. Nobody looks good here: Viserys I looks spineless, Aemond's a sociopath, Daemon might be one too, Rhaenyra and Aegon II were spoiled little brats, Alicent and the Hightowers were conniving and grasping. The only one of the main lot who seems devoid of blame is Helaena and she ended up suffering more than any of them. I think it is important never to lose sight that Rhaenyra's claim not affected by any attribute she herself possessed or displayed, but that she was born first and her father had confirmed her as his heir. And the Aegon's claim was not affected by any attribute he himself possessed or displayed, but that he was his father's first born surviving son, and not specifically disinherited. There is legitimate basis for a good-faith succession war there. It would be far better that it not happen, but there is a reason both sides could get a really good civil war going between them that isn't limited to dragons. It's all on Viserys for not officially revisiting the situation when the situation changed. Blasting everything else into trivialities, it is all on Viserys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Hmm, I must be mistaken. I'm fairly sure I've seen lots of posters condemning Robert for not punishing Tywin and his henchmen for what happened to Elia and the children but Aemond walking away scot free is somehow totally normal and justified. Must have been my glasses, for sure. Damn it, I'll have to buy a new pair. Seeing how we got no word what happened to Aemond before Daemon went to have his six year old nephew gutted that is unfair judgment. If Daemon was so just, he should have had Aemond killed, he didn't, instead he decided to have a little boy who had nothig to do with anything killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 No he was not, Aegon and his mother sent him with a purpose, that purpose was to speak with one person, not to kill anyone, what he did was beyond what Aegon sent him to do. Him acting as his voice, was just that, acting as his voice to Baratheon, your pretending aegon even knew Lucerys was there, he didn't, Aemond went rogue and did something he was not okay to do. In which case, Aegon II should have punished Aemond for acting above his authority. No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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