Heresy 104 and the art of Prophecy

[Frey family reunion]

The wolf in sheeps clothing is definitely there with Jon. The lamb scepter at a feast of dead guys could be seen as leading the lamb to slaughter. Not necessarily on purpose, but what is going to happen at the wall after Jon is stabbed?

If Jon is anything like his Aunt, then he'll certainly find that the road to hell is paved with the best of intentions.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

My own personal feeling on these ancient "hero reborn" prophecies will have several candidates that fit, but no real confirmation. Leaving it up to the reader to decide is a very GRRMy thing to do. But I guess time will tell...

I agree. Mel, while describing Stannis as AA reborn, states that he holds Lightbringer, the sword of heroes. Plural. So we may see multuple Lightbringers also.

[JNR]

Then i remembered JNR's quote about the wiki.

Although to be fair I really don't see how my prophecy -- "the wiki will bite your prick off every time" -- can possibly be true, unless you have multiple pricks and you never learn from your mistakes.

Yet another mysterious prophecy! And this time I have only myself to blame.

My own personal feeling on these ancient "hero reborn" prophecies will have several candidates that fit, but no real confirmation.

I think we'll get... good solid candidates.

It will help knowing what these prophecies actually say. And I expect we'll find that out, by the end of the series. It's the kind of juicy information GRRM has held back so far to drive speculation, but he can't keep in the dark forever. He 'll have to reveal the terms, so we can appreciate that he satisfied those terms cleverly.

Also, it's apparent Rhaegar at least thought TPtwP was directly involved in "the song of ice and fire." You can interpret that as you see fit.

GRRM's favorite pet example of how prophecy should work is the guy who was told he would die beneath a certain castle's walls. "Fine," he thought. "I'll never go within fifty miles of the mofo."

But when he died, his body was found underneath a picture of the castle.

[wolfmaid7]

Although to be fair I really don't see how my prophecy -- "the wiki will bite your prick off every time" -- can possibly be true, unless you have multiple pricks and you never learn from your mistakes.

Yet another mysterious prophecy! And this time I have only myself to blame.

I think we'll get... good solid candidates.

It will help actually knowing what these prophecies actually say. And I expect we'll find that out, by the end of the series. It's the kind of juicy information GRRM has held back so far to drive speculation, but he can't keep in the dark forever. He 'll have to reveal the terms, so we can appreciated that he satisfied those terms cleverly.

Also, it's apparent Rhaegar at least thought TPtwP was directly involved in "the song of ice and fire." You can interpret that as you see fit.

GRRM's favorite pet example of how prophecy should work is the guy who was told he would die beneath a certain castle's walls. "Fine," he thought, "I'll never go inside fifty miles of the mofo."

But when he died, his body was found underneath a picture of the castle.

Spear pricks, pricks inside, substituite pricks....lol

[FainRivers]

Although to be fair I really don't see how my prophecy -- "the wiki will bite your prick off every time" -- can possibly be true, unless you have multiple pricks and you never learn from your mistakes.

Yet another mysterious prophecy! And this time I have only myself to blame.

I think we'll get... good solid candidates.

It will help knowing what these prophecies actually say. And I expect we'll find that out, by the end of the series. It's the kind of juicy information GRRM has held back so far to drive speculation, but he can't keep in the dark forever. He 'll have to reveal the terms, so we can appreciate that he satisfied those terms cleverly.

Also, it's apparent Rhaegar at least thought TPtwP was directly involved in "the song of ice and fire." You can interpret that as you see fit.

GRRM's favorite pet example of how prophecy should work is the guy who was told he would die beneath a certain castle's walls. "Fine," he thought. "I'll never go within fifty miles of the mofo."

But when he died, his body was found underneath a picture of the castle.

Perhaps the terms will be in the World book.

[addicted to snow]

The wolf in sheeps clothing is definitely there with Jon. The lamb scepter at a feast of dead guys could be seen as leading the lamb to slaughter. Not necessarily on purpose, but what is going to happen at the wall after Jon is stabbed?

Mel will produce a fake Hand of the King (Devon glimmered as Davos) & utilize the power associated with his office/position to maintain order, control & power at the wall.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Mel will produce a fake Hand of the King (Devon glimmered as Davos) & utilize the power associated with his office/position to maintain order, control & power at the wall.

Devon to Davos? I dont know. I have thought about Davos himself turning at the wall through Eastwatch. I don't doubt Mel trying to take over though.

Oh yeah! The pink letter stating Stannis is dead and the bad reception in the fire - how is Mel gonna tune her AA rhetoric?

[A Bastard Snow]

The main problem with prophecies is that they are self fulfilling.The only reason why they happen is cause they are known.Saying TPtwP would be born of a union ensured that said union would happen.Oedipus is one fine example of this.When you try to make something/someone fit a prophecy (Stannis as AAR) you see only what you want to see.The entire world saw the Red Comet and assumed that was the one when in reality it was something so small and seemingly insignificant that no one would have could have predicted it.We also have the fact that Sir Patrek (The Bloody Star) would never have been at the wall had Mel not said it was Stannis place to go there for he was AAR and his battle was with the others.So the false interpretation of the signs led directly to the prophecy being fulfilled

[JNR]

The main problem with prophecies is that they are self fulfilling.The only reason why they happen is cause they are known.

Often the case in literature and the real world, yet GRRM's world is full of true prophecies too.

I'd have to look it up to know how many predictions the Ghost of High Heart has nailed. That woman could find a needle in a haystack before the hay was grown, and I was sorry to see her left out of the show.

[Mithras]

[1] > [2] > [3] > [4] > [5]

[Black Crow]

A lot of the vision stuff isn't really prophecy in the classic sense but rather third parties communicating with certain characters by unconventional means, however as to prophecies proper, for all practical purposes there is only the one, relating to Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised. The problem here is that it was written down a long time ago and we don't know what its about. We have certain clues which can be summarised as follows:

Mel in hailing Stannis Baratheon tells us that it was written down in Asshai 5,000 years ago; that there was a time of great darkness and that a warrior drew his sword from the flames and that sword is lightbringer. [pause] When the red star bleeds the said warrior will be born again amidst smoke and salt etc.

Benero likewise invokes smoke and salt in hailing Danaerys Targaryen.

Sallhador San tells Davos the tale of forging Lightbringer, but otherwise says nothing about the prophecy in what is clearly intended as a warning that Azor Ahai isn't the parfait knight, the chevalier sans peur sans reproche being promoted by Mel, but something altogether more dangerous.

And then we have Maester Aemon linking Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised. Here at last we get a hint in his reference to the War for the Dawn which suggests that he is going to be a leading light in the battle to come, but there are all sorts of problems arising out of this possible Targaryen involvement. What we as readers, know about Azor Ahai amounts to very little, yet it seems it took a lot of study for Rhaegar to come to the conclusion that he was the one and that if he wasn't then he had to go out and sort it. This indicates that there is far more out there which we haven't yet been told, not least the significance of the three heads business.

Taking this back a little further the Targaryen sigil is itself a three-headed dragon. Rhaegar's statement that there needs to be a third suggests that the sigil is not a random one but is used precisely because the Targaryens are the ones possssed of the holy blood - which is why they are so keen in incest - and always have been. Yet like the Starks they seem to have forgotten the details and hence are dependent on the texts. The problem here then becomes the texts. Dany speaks High Valyrian so presumably all her family did likewise and the problems come not from translating High Valyrian into the common tongue but in translating it from something else into Valyrian. As to that something else the only clue we have is Mel's statement about it being written in the ancient books of Asshai, which once again very firmly places it out east. Its only relevance to Westeros is that the Targaryens brought it to Westeros.

[Mithras]

According to Aemon, the prince that was promised was prophesized 1000 years ago. The original word translated into Valyrian was probably dragon, and most of the Valyrians assumed that it must be a prince. But the Valyrians did not have princes and princesses back then. It was a Freehold. The Rhoynar had princes and suspiciously the Rhoynar fled from the Valyrians at the exact same time. The Rhoynar-Valyrian conflict continued through Targaryen-Dornish conflict and eventually the bloodlines are connected.

[Dagda]

This kind of goes back to what we were debating in the last thread. I don't think that there is any textual evidence that "prince" was a mistranslation of "dragon" or the two terms would be synonymous. I think Aemon's belief was that the mistranslation was the masculine Prince, when the messiah should be considered gender neutral. Now I think Aemon assumes that the "Prince/Princess" has to be a dragon because of the Wood's Witch prophecy to Aegon. And Aemon assuming that the messiah had to be a dragon notes that dragon's are according to Septon Barth gender neutral able to change from male to female.Now since the prophecy is a 1,000 years old, my guess is this was not a Valyrian prophecy. Because as you said Valyria was a freehold and would not have had a "Prince". However, the Rhoynes did have Princes, a practice that followed them into Dorne. Most of the Asshai prophecies seem to be derived from the religion of R'hollr, or a slave religion. Which makes sense, historically it is oppressed people that come up with future messiah prophecies. I.E. it gives the oppressed something to look forward to. Cultures, like the Valyrians who were literally on top of the world when the prophecy came about, usually do not have these type of prophecies.Of course now that I say this I assume I'm going to get bombarded with tons of examples of where I'm wrong.

There seems to be no encroachment in Dorne of the Red Crew as would be expected if it was Rhonish to begin with.

“ Light our fire and protect us from the dark, blah, blah, light our way and keep us toasty warm, the night is full of terrors, save us from the scary thing, and blah blah blah some more. ”

[Black Crow]

Prince has a wide variety of meaninings so it would seem unwise to fix upon it as signifying a member of a royal family. The azor Ahai prophecy after all speaks only of a warrior.

[Dagda]

Prince has a wide variety of meaninings so it would seem unwise to fix upon it as signifying a member of a royal family. The azor Ahai prophecy after all speaks only of a warrior.

Royal families have a tendency to fixate on anything that gives them that freshly waxed shine of divine glow. After all, Celtic Arthur is glorified by a Norman family at the exact same time they are trying to grind the remnant peoples into the dust.

EDT: by the way, speaking of Arthur, anyone for Tristifer IV, House Mudd as the Prince That Shall Return? ;)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Prince has a wide variety of meaninings so it would seem unwise to fix upon it as signifying a member of a royal family. The azor Ahai prophecy after all speaks only of a warrior.

Royal families have a tendency to fixate on anything that gives them that freshly waxed shine of divine glow. After all, Celtic Arthur is glorified by a Norman family at the exact same time they are trying to grind the remnant peoples into the dust.

EDT: by the way, speaking of Arthur, anyone for Tristifer IV, House Mudd as the Prince That Shall Return? ;)

Yes, one of the more interesting and helpful ways to understand the word "dragon" might be in the sense of the Old Welsh meaning of the word: "commander, war leader." Thus the word/title "Pendragon," often with reference to King Arthur or his father.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I believe that AAR/TPTWP is an Eastern prophecy that was brought over and may have no relevancy to Westeros culture and what is going on in Westeros,and trying to force it by people like Mel is trying to fit a square peg in a round whole.That never ends well.

I also agree that to my knowledge anyway there is no Westrosi prophecy foretelling the return the LH. Though he can be an archetype but a reincarnation,i'm not sure about.

While I absolutely agree that the AAR/TPTWP is an eastern prophecy, I believe it to be about the "re-birth" of the Last Hero, and by that I mean an offspring of the original AA/LH bloodline who's fate it will be to battle against the second Long Night. IMO, those prophesies came from glass candles in the East watching events transpire (ie the original Azor Ahai/Last Hero) in Westeros during the first Long Night, later coupled with visions of the distant future of a second Long Night and a new hero to fight against it.

We know that the glass candles are burning again and I believe we are headed for the second long night, so it's very possible that the first time they burned was leading up to the first Long Night.

[Dagda]

Yes, one of the more interesting and helpful ways to understand the word "dragon" might be in the sense of the Old Welsh meaning of the word: "commander, war leader." Thus the word/title "Pendragon," often with reference to King Arthur or his father.

Arthor is also known as the King of Summerland ( or Land of Summer, depending on translation ). Interesting we are looking now for the King Of Winter, expecting him to come from Winterfell.

[Dagda]

While I absolutely agree that the AAR/TPTWP is an eastern prophecy, I believe it to be about the "re-birth" of the Last Hero, and by that I mean an offspring of the original AA/LH bloodline who's fate it will be to battle against the second Long Night. IMO, those prophesies came from glass candles in the East watching events transpire (ie the original Azor Ahai/Last Hero) in Westeros during the first Long Night, later coupled with visions of the distant future of a second Long Night and a new hero to fight against it.

We know that the glass candles are burning again and I believe we are headed for the second long night, so it's very possible that the first time they burned was leading up to the first Long Night.

How far is Asshai from Westeros anyway? The world seems to operate as a sphere, so it's quite possible that Asshai is right around the corner from Westeros. To go West, first you must go East ....

[Frey family reunion]

Yes, one of the more interesting and helpful ways to understand the word "dragon" might be in the sense of the Old Welsh meaning of the word: "commander, war leader." Thus the word/title "Pendragon," often with reference to King Arthur or his father.

Which is exactly my problem with this interpretation of the prophecy. I always thought that GRRM was attempting to avoid obvious fantasy tropes, or better yet use our expectations of predicted outcomes in fantasy literature against us. Making Jon the Prince that was promised or Azor Ahai reborn is falling into the most cliched of the fantasy tropes. It's basically almost by the letter mimicking one of the most famous fantasy stories of all time, the story of King Arthur.