who tried to kill Bran?

[Mulled Wino]

Joffery is stated to almost idolise Robert and be desperate for approval or affection from him; most likely because Robert never offers him any love and is actually very resentful of him. In such a masculine world, a boy needs his fathers approval (or barring that a father substitute)

I understand all of the above, but A) Cersei said that and B) There is no other indication of this alleged desperate need from Joff that I can remember.

I always thought it was flimsy reasoning for the attempt on Bran's life and wish there was another decent explanation. Mance isn't a decent explanation though.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I understand all of the above, but A) Cersei said that and B) There is no other indication of this alleged desperate need from Joff that I can remember.

I always thought it was flimsy reasoning for the attempt on Bran's life and wish there was another decent explanation. Mance isn't a decent explanation though.

For example, there is the whole "A King shall act boldly" stuff or Joffrey telling off Tywin for hiding under the Rock while his "father" fought the war.

[Hippocras]

1. We do know when the catspaw was hired. He flat out says "it would be a mercy," which means he was hired after Bran fell. He also mentions that there wasn't supposed to be anyone with Bran, which means he was hired after Bran was in a coma and was sent to kill him under the assumption that he would be totally helpless. And unless he stole the knife and was then conveniently hired later (unlikely and, frankly, a little ridiculous), someone from the King's party hired him and gave him the knife, which means he was hired before their party left.

2. Do you honestly think Littlefinger has agents in the North that he trusts to make the kind of call that would have to be made after Bran's fall? He tells Sansa not to trust anyone, and it's pretty clear he only trusts a select few people, and even them not enough to make a decision like deciding to send someone to kill Bran.

3. Given the above, distance arguments are totally valid. Littlefinger doesn't control a vast web of conspirators. He makes all his decisions himself or by manipulating others. He wasn't in the position to do either for Bran's fall.

1. It does not necessarily mean that at all - that is pure interpretation. Could as well be his own opinion. There was not supposed to be anyone there because they were supposed to all be drawn away by the fire which he, or an associate set. Clearly he knew Bran was in a coma by the time he made the attempt but that does not mean necessarily that Bran was in a coma at the point when he was hired. Assuming your version of the timing is correct though it still does not mean that LF had no high level agent such as he has in Taena in KL to set things up.

2. Yes, I am absolutely positive LF has agents in the North and this will become clear in the next book.

3. Distance estimates only work if you know where a messenger is travelling to and from. Since we do not know those things, anything else is pure conjecture.

[GHOSTSTARK]

Joffrey.

I never liked this mystery. There were no clues and the reveal was sloppy. Kind of just resulted in everyone agreeing it was Joffrey and shrugging about it.

another case of Joffrey being Joffrey

[Mulled Wino]

1. We do know when the catspaw was hired. He flat out says "it would be a mercy," which means he was hired after Bran fell. He also mentions that there wasn't supposed to be anyone with Bran, which means he was hired after Bran was in a coma and was sent to kill him under the assumption that he would be totally helpless. And unless he stole the knife and was then conveniently hired later (unlikely and, frankly, a little ridiculous), someone from the King's party hired him and gave him the knife, which means he was hired before their party left.

2. Do you honestly think Littlefinger has agents in the North that he trusts to make the kind of call that would have to be made after Bran's fall? He tells Sansa not to trust anyone, and it's pretty clear he only trusts a select few people, and even them not enough to make a decision like deciding to send someone to kill Bran.

3. Given the above, distance arguments are totally valid. Littlefinger doesn't control a vast web of conspirators. He makes all his decisions himself or by manipulating others. He wasn't in the position to do either for Bran's fall.

I"m not arguing for LF but the bold is actually a strike against your argument. Everyone in the castle knew that Cat never left the room with Bran. Anyone who hired the assassin in the castle would have known this IMO and Cat wouldn't be out there fighting fires

[briantw]

1. It does not necessarily mean that at all - that is pure interpretation. Could as well be his own opinion. There was not supposed to be anyone there because they were supposed to all be drawn away by the fire which he, or an associate set. Clearly he knew Bran was in a coma by the time he made the attempt but that does not mean necessarily that Bran was in a coma at the point when he was hired. Assuming your version of the timing is correct though it still does not mean that LF had no high level agent such as he has in Taena in KL to set things up.

2. Yes, I am absolutely positive LF has agents in the North and this will become clear in the next book.

3. Distance estimates only work if you know where a messenger is travelling to and from. Since we do not know those things, anything else is pure conjecture.

1. He had the knife from Robert's armory. Are you under the impression that he just magically happened to steal the knife before being hired? That is a pretty ridiculous assumption.

2. So you're dogging me for making assumptions, but you're making an even bigger one here? LOL.

3. Again, you're making total assumptions here. Littlefinger is not the boogeyman. He's one guy who happens to be very smart and manipulative. He's not behind every little thing that happens in the books, and Bran's fall is one he almost certainly had no hand in.

[Mulled Wino]

For example, there is the whole "A King shall act boldly" stuff or Joffrey telling off Tywin for hiding under the Rock while his "father" fought the war.

That's just repeating something your dad says. Completely different, nowhere near evidence that he was desperate for daddy's attention.

I mean, it's most more realistic to me that Joff would know how much his dad loved Ned and wouldn't expect any sort of love from his father for one of Robert's own children killing Ned's son.

[briantw]

I"m not arguing for LF but the bold is actually a strike against your argument. Everyone in the castle knew that Cat never left the room with Bran. Anyone who hired the assassin in the castle would have known this IMO.

It was assumed she would leave when the fire was set. It's not a strike against my argument at all. It's common sense that the woman in charge of Winterfell would leave the room when a fire broke out. If anything, it was just underestimated how useless Cat had become following Bran's fall.

[Hippocras]

1. He had the knife from Robert's armory. Are you under the impression that he just magically happened to steal the knife before being hired? That is a pretty ridiculous assumption.

2. So you're dogging me for making assumptions, but you're making an even bigger one here? LOL.

3. Again, you're making total assumptions here. Littlefinger is not the boogeyman. He's one guy who happens to be very smart and manipulative. He's not behind every little thing that happens in the books, and Bran's fall is one he almost certainly had no hand in.

1. No. The evidence is solid that Joffrey saw the knife before. It did quite probably come from Robert's armoury. Ned observed in KL that the armoury was badly guarded. Anyone could have taken it from there. That has nothing to do with when the catspaw was hired. All it proves is that the catspaw was hired by someone connected to KL.

2. It is already known LF had at least one agent in the North. This is not an assumption. We just don't know who it is or how many.

3. Littlefinger has had one major goal throughout the books: provoke total chaos and climb the ladder. If that was his goal, do you seriously believe he did NOT do everything he could to provoke chaos in the North? Do you seriously believe he did NOT send someone North with the King to be his eyes and ears?

[Mulled Wino]

It was assumed she would leave when the fire was set. It's not a strike against my argument at all. It's common sense that the woman in charge of Winterfell would leave the room when a fire broke out. If anything, it was just underestimated how useless Cat had become following Bran's fall.

She didn't leave for anything and now you think she's going to be putting out fires- without leaving a guard for Bran?

Not sure what kind of common sense you're talking about.

[briantw]

She didn't leave for anything and now you think she's going to be putting out fires- without leaving a guard for Bran?

Not sure what kind of common sense you're talking about.

A fire in medieval times was a huge deal, so yes, I think it was totally understandable to expect her to leave.

Why would she need a guard for Bran? Until the assassin tried to kill him, she had no reason to assume anyone meant him any harm. Remember, everyone thought that he fell except for Jaime, Cercei, and Tyrion (who had suspicions he was unlikely to share with the Starks). It was only after the failed assassin attempt that Cat began suspecting that he didn't really fall.

So again, why would she feel the need to keep a bodyguard on Bran?

[Starks Among Us]

Another thing to remember - for a while the reader was lead to believe that the Lannisters were responsible for the murder of Jon Arryn, we didn't find out til much later that it was completely orchestrated by LF and carried out by Lysa.

Varys riddle - he asks Tyrion the riddle about the King, the sellsword and the person paying them and asks who is the one in control - Varys is doing his double talk and is insinuating that LF is the one who is pulling all the strings. When Ned was beheaded who was to blame? Ser Illyn, Joffrey, Jonas Slynt? Or the man who was paying one of them (Jonas) while whispering in the ears of the other (Joff) ....

We also know that LF has no aversion to killing children, he did nothing to stop Jonas Slynt (who was in his employ) to stop him from killing Robert's bastard who was an "infant at the breast".

LF also shows no qualms about poisoning SR with sweet sleep - you don't think he knows exactly what he's doing? Because he does.

He has no qualms about killing anyone or anything that gets in his way - the books hint at it (slowly building up and revealing his character over time) but the show goes straight to the heart of it (ie what he did with Ros).

[Not Dead Just Broken]

Littlefinger makes a lot more sense than anyone else. As far as I can tell, his original plan was to kill Ned and marry Catelyn. The assassin seems genuinely sorry to find Cat there. I think his instructions were "kill Bran, do it so no one else knows, here's a shiny dagger for your trouble." That sounds like LF. He may have been trying to put Cat out of the misery of having Bran in a coma. I don't think his feelings for Cat were BS. I think he would genuinely want her not to suffer while her son died slowly in a coma.

As for Littlefinger's ability to extend his power beyond KL, I think we underestimate just how influential a Master of Coin he was. In order to do what he was able to do, he has to be able to make money move quickly. He was basically executing a giant shell game with the treasury as far as I can tell. In order to do that, he needs to have people, like tax collectors, all over the country who will help him out.

[Skythe1]

If Littlefinger was going to choose a Stark to assassinate, why would he (assuming this was arranged before Bran fell) choose Bran? That's the only issue I have with the theory - I'm almost sure he's capable of doing it but the logistics of it would make it tricky if it was post fall.

My money was always on Joffrey. But on the other hand, Tyrion doesn't seem to notice the dagger is missing (IIRC?), so that begs the question would he have bothered taking it on the road with him or was it stolen from somewhere else? Not so sure myself now... Is it even Tyrion's dagger?! Watched the show recently so could be thinking of that over the books.

[HexMachina]

If Littlefinger was going to choose a Stark to assassinate, why would he (assuming this was arranged before Bran fell) choose Bran? That's the only issue I have with the theory - I'm almost sure he's capable of doing it but the logistics of it would make it tricky if it was post fall.

My money was always on Joffrey. But on the other hand, Tyrion doesn't seem to notice the dagger is missing (IIRC?), so that begs the question would he have bothered taking it on the road with him or was it stolen from somewhere else? Not so sure myself now... Is it even Tyrion's dagger?! Watched the show recently so could be thinking of that over the books.

The dagger was Roberts, given to him as a gift. Joffrey gave it to the assassin after taking it from the swoeds and whatnot at the rear of the supply train

[Hippocras]

If Littlefinger was going to choose a Stark to assassinate, why would he (assuming this was arranged before Bran fell) choose Bran? That's the only issue I have with the theory - I'm almost sure he's capable of doing it but the logistics of it would make it tricky if it was post fall.

My money was always on Joffrey. But on the other hand, Tyrion doesn't seem to notice the dagger is missing (IIRC?), so that begs the question would he have bothered taking it on the road with him or was it stolen from somewhere else? Not so sure myself now... Is it even Tyrion's dagger?! Watched the show recently so could be thinking of that over the books.

I guess someone in a coma is easier that someone capable of screaming out.

I don't think the dagger was ever Tyrion's. That was just LF's story. The LF theory does not preclude Joffrey also being involved BTW. We do know LF is good at putting ideas in people's heads with insinuation.

[RandomSmallfolk]

The attempt on Bran's life by the assassin was the result of what he saw.

My guess is that Joff did "hire" the assasin but did so under his Mother's bidding. She knew Bran had to die now or he would talk of what he saw and the resultant push which would put her and her lover/brothers heads on pikes.

Obviously as Queen.. SHE couldn't give the order... she cannot be held culpable in this Game.. but her son, who so desperatley wants to be on dad's good side, can be easily convinced this is worth doing. So she talked the dumb Prince into it.

Typical GRRM.. a situation where everyone is paying attention to the result but no one is asking why.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Joffrey did it, because Robert was talking half drunk the boy would be better dead than being a crippled. Then he hired the man to kill him and used one of Robert's daggers

[herr witz]

Maybe not her bidding, but possibly her 'nudging'.

My confusion stems from the choice of a dagger, even the need for a dagger. Why would a swellsword/cutthroat need a dagger to be given to them, unless it was deliberately chosen to frame someone to begin with?

I suppose it's possible that Joff is just a moron (not like we need a lot more evidence of that) and picked one of the worst possible choices in the chest of goodies. Probably because it caught his eye.

[RandomSmallfolk]

well.. actually I think the dagger was chosen on purpose...

If the attack was succesfull, the dagger (blood and all) would pose proof to his father of what he did.

Remember the use of the dagger only looks foolish through the lens of failure.