who tried to kill Bran?

[Colonel Green]

2. It makes perfect sense as a premeditated plan. If you want to start a war, BOTH sides need to be angry. The knife served two purposes: it fed off of the distrust he had already planted with the letter from Lysa to provoke the Starks to antagonize the Lannisters by arresting Tyrion. It also helped him get Ned's trust when he arrived in KL. Without the dagger, Ned would never have listened to a word he said. And he absolutely made sure that Catelyn turned to him. Anyone else would have basically just shrugged their shoulders and said they did not know. He made sure that he was the one and the only one who seemed to be helping her. It was perfectly safe since no one knew anything about the knife so no one could verify his story except for people he had already made sure she would NEVER trust. Lannisters.

No, it would have been easy for Ned or Catelyn to ask around about the provenance of the dagger. The lie could be undone in an instant, and it would be hugely complicated for him to even anticipate being in the position to give the lie in the first place. There was no reason, if it was planned in advance, for him to choose a weapon requiring him to lie about it. He could easily have acquired an actual Lannister weapon.

The assassin alive would have just pointed back at the Lannisters, which is where the blame was supposed to point.

No, the assassin alive and with no hope of rescue could quite easily have given away his true employer when put to judicial torture or facing execution.

[briantw]

We learn from the Tyrion POV that when they had been riding for a week from Winterfell towards the wall, they were joined by Yoren who had recruits with him, two rapists, FROM THE FINGERS.

Yoren could have had recruits from anywhere if the point was just to advance Jon's understanding of what he was getting himself into.

But Martin chose to specifically say that Yoren had just come from the Fingers. Why? I say he did this to prove that a boat had arrived from there very recently, in time to put Yoren with Jon and Tyrion at the same time as someone put that knife in the hands of the assassin.

The timeline still doesn't match up. There's no way that Littlefinger could have gotten a raven from Winterfell, made it to the Fingers, and then sent a catspaw from the Fingers to Winterfell. It took almost an entire month for Winterfell to receive the raven from King's Landing carrying news of Jon Arryn's death, and that's assuming Maester Luwin even bothered to send a raven to King's Landing about Bran's fall at all, which is by no means a certainty. Further, the attempt on Bran's life was approximately twenty-one days after his fall, which is less time than it took for that original message to arrive from King's Landing.

And that's not to mention that the knife had to have been stolen from Robert's armory before the party left, which was about eight days before the attempt itself. Even if Littlefinger had an agent in the North, the ravens couldn't have made it to and from King's Landing the (approximately) fourteen days it would have taken for him to be behind this. Perhaps if the agent was acting for him it could work, but then it wouldn't really have been Littlefinger behind it, would it?

[Chebyshov]

:agree:

LF was able to use the dagger to his advantage after the fact (I'm sure he knew Tyrion, Jaime, or Cersei wouldn't be stupid enough to arm an assassin with that blade) and pit the Starks against the Lannisters, but it was definitely Joff's work.

[Tellus Explorer]

I always thought it was another Frey act, the Frey's are connected to the Lannisters and seemed to be very kind to their cousins.

I think Baelish was too passionately lustful of Cat to have her son done with.

[Teal'c]

I think it was purposefully without clues. The whole point was that the reader was meant to think it was Cersei and/or Jaime the whole time, just for you to later find out that they had nothing to do with it.

Just so.

[Hippocras]

Again and again the same erroneous assumption! We don't know where LF WAS! You can not use arguments about distances and travel times if you don't even know where a message was traveling to, and how.

[HexMachina]

Again and again the same erroneous assumption! We don't know where LF WAS! You can not use arguments about distances and travel times if you don't even know where a message was traveling to, and how.

But if LF wasn't in King's Landing, does that mean Varys, Pycelle and Renly were running the Kingdom? I don't see Robert giving LF permission to leave King's Landing while he was gone, and there is no evidence that suggests he did

[Naturally Low Highborn]

Just like LF wasn't at KL during the PW? LF plays the long game, creating chaos while keeping his hands clean. This is his MO.

When the royals headed north to WF, Arryn was dead, killed at the hands of his wife Lysa at the direction of LF while at KL. This is known.

Joff was killed at the PW by (insert theory here), at the direction/knowledge of LF while in the Vale. This is known.

LF does NOT have to be any where near the murder to be the man behind the mayhem.

Who else has he killed or attempted to kill using a pawn as the actual killer while he was albeit somewhere else. This is a thread that weaves through every book. LF wants to make a move, manipulates a pawn to do it, they do it, LF's hands are clean.

So, since he had a lie ready for Cat 1.0 when she asked, I would assume, theorize, assert that LF instigated the attempted murder through manipulating Joff prior to leaving, or even being in the group without being noticed or at the very least having spies.

The question is why? to kill a Stark to create chaos in WF. Lysa and LF had already schemed to send the raven with Lysa's theories to her sister, so there was already a plan in the works when Lysa fled KL after killing her husband. LF is creating chaos in the Stark household, sending people in different directions. Ned w/ girls goes to KL, Cat stays behind w/ Robb & Rickon bc Bran is comatose and there's a crazed killer about. Divide and conquer. With Ned in KL, LF can execute his plan to behead him at the order of Joff (probably again at the manipulation of LF) Which is probably why LF wanted Joff dead. Anyone who knows his plans or are a part of them or finds out about them is poisoned, shoved out the moon door, shot with a new bow, is stabbed and shoved off a ship or poisoned at their wedding. The fact that he admits so much to Sansa/Alayne makes me fear for her life.

[Mark Antony]

holy shit it was Joffrey not LF. It's spelled out in the novels.

[Ilúvatar]

I think Jaime or Cersei are responsible, despite the claims that it was Joffrey.

[Naturally Low Highborn]

The one who pulls the trigger is not the only one accused of murder. LF is pulling strings to kill people. Joff pulls the trigger; LF loads the gun.

[HexMachina]

What is your source for that, and what were the precise words please?

Q) You should know that even after all this time, we're still debating things like who was behind the assassination attempt on Bran. Not to mention trying to figure out the four weddings, four trials, and two funeral.

A) The problem with all this speculating is that some of you are bound to guess the answers before I reveal 'em... and others may even come up with better answers than I do. Well, those are the risks one takes with such a project.

I will tell you that ASOS will resolve the question of Bran and the dagger, and also that of Jon Arryn's killer. Some other questions will =not= be resolved... and hopefully I will give you a few new puzzles to worry at.

I should caution that the four trials aren't necessarily the sort of thing a 20th century American would call a trial. Don't expect Perry of House Mason to be showing up to argue fine points of law

-April 29, 2000

As Joffrey is revealed to be the one behind it in A Storm of Swords, well, that's me finished with this thread. (not that I ever doubted it)

ETA: You have no idea how hard I have been searching for this SSM

[Mark Antony]

ETA: You have no idea how hard I have been searching for this SSM

:lol: Never seen it before so thanks

[Hippocras]

holy shit it was Joffrey not LF. It's spelled out in the novels.

No actually it is not. All there is, is one or two characters thinking it MIGHT have been Joffrey, with the only evidence being the fact that Joffrey recognized the knife. But he could recognize it from anywhere or any time. It proves nothing.

[Hippocras]

:lol: Never seen it before so thanks

I agree, thanks for the quote. For me it does not entirely settle the issue of whether and how Joffrey was nudged though. I find the explanation that he wanted his father's approval to be weak, since it would be pretty stupid for him to believe that would be a way to win approval.

[briantw]

Just like LF wasn't at KL during the PW? LF plays the long game, creating chaos while keeping his hands clean. This is his MO.

When the royals headed north to WF, Arryn was dead, killed at the hands of his wife Lysa at the direction of LF while at KL. This is known.

Joff was killed at the PW by (insert theory here), at the direction/knowledge of LF while in the Vale. This is known.

LF does NOT have to be any where near the murder to be the man behind the mayhem.

Who else has he killed or attempted to kill using a pawn as the actual killer while he was albeit somewhere else. This is a thread that weaves through every book. LF wants to make a move, manipulates a pawn to do it, they do it, LF's hands are clean.

So, since he had a lie ready for Cat 1.0 when she asked, I would assume, theorize, assert that LF instigated the attempted murder through manipulating Joff prior to leaving, or even being in the group without being noticed or at the very least having spies.

The question is why? to kill a Stark to create chaos in WF. Lysa and LF had already schemed to send the raven with Lysa's theories to her sister, so there was already a plan in the works when Lysa fled KL after killing her husband. LF is creating chaos in the Stark household, sending people in different directions. Ned w/ girls goes to KL, Cat stays behind w/ Robb & Rickon bc Bran is comatose and there's a crazed killer about. Divide and conquer. With Ned in KL, LF can execute his plan to behead him at the order of Joff (probably again at the manipulation of LF) Which is probably why LF wanted Joff dead. Anyone who knows his plans or are a part of them or finds out about them is poisoned, shoved out the moon door, shot with a new bow, is stabbed and shoved off a ship or poisoned at their wedding. The fact that he admits so much to Sansa/Alayne makes me fear for her life.

The problem with your logic there is that even Littlefinger couldn't have planned for Bran's fall, which was the reason the assassin went after him in the first place. Bran's fall was a totally random event that no one could have foreseen, and Littlefinger was too far away to have heard about it and reacted in time to be behind the catspaw.

And did you really just insinuate that Littlefinger manipulated Joffrey prior to his leaving King's Landing? Bran hadn't fallen yet! That makes no sense.

Also, he didn't have a lie ready. He's simply quick on his feet and wanted to put the Starks against the Lannisters.

Again and again the same erroneous assumption! We don't know where LF WAS! You can not use arguments about distances and travel times if you don't even know where a message was traveling to, and how.

I think the erroneous assumption is assuming that he wasn't in King's Landing. As the Master of Coin, that's his place unless he is sent elsewhere, which was unlikely with Robert away and no Hand currently in place.

Further, how can we assume that, if Littlefinger was not in King's Landing, how would there be any guarantee the place he was at would even get a raven about Bran's fall? I highly doubt that Luwin just randomly sent out ravens regarding the event. It was a family tragedy, but not something so significant that it needed to be advertised to every house in the realm. We can probably assume that King's Landing got a raven (as the fall probably impacted Robert's return to the capital), and maybe a few Northern lords, but beyond that it's unlikely any ravens were sent to the Lords of the South, let alone anywhere Littlefinger might have been.

And really, anywhere else he might have been still produces the travel issue. Unless he has the teleporter device he seems to utilize on the show or he had someone acting in his name (both unlikely, really), he wasn't responsible.

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

I find the explanation that he wanted his father's approval to be weak

I accept that Joff was behind, but I agree that Joff wanting Robert's approval feels like a weak motive. I think the problem with it is that the incest twist caused GRRM to play up the idea that Joff identifies himself as a Lannister during AGOT, having the lion included with stag on his sigil and naming his sword "Lion's Tooth" for example. Then in ACOK he is apathetic about Robert's death. So by the time the cat incident is mentioned and Joff mouthing off to Tywin about how better Robert is happens, it feels at odds with what we've already witnessed from Joff.

[Turin-25]

This was done before Joffrey became king.

And who has better access to the King's armory than the King's own wife?

How could Joffrey kill a boy he barely knew? Whereas Cersei had every reason to kill a guy who saw her having sex with Jaime

Tyrion firmly believes that Joffrey was the one that used the dagger, but I must admit that even the use of that dagger was extremely stupid even for Joffrey. I think it would be either Joffrey or little finger. I think cersei didn't do it, but I don't think I have the evidence to support my believe.

[MasterJack]

Tyrion firmly believes that Joffrey was the one that used the dagger, but I must admit that even the use of that dagger was extremely stupid even for Joffrey. I think it would be either Joffrey or little finger. I think cersei didn't do it, but I don't think I have the evidence to support my believe.

Someone made of thread about how much cercei is an unreliable pov but I cant find it. Basically it explained how cercei always blames on others her own failures or her own bad decisions without herself realizing it.

[Turin-25]

Someone made of thread about how much cercei is an unreliable pov but I cant find it. Basically it explained how cercei always blames on others her own failures or her own bad decisions without herself realizing it.

So basically was cersei, but she does not know she was?