Is Aegon the rightful heir?

[Aaronomus]

You understand - as I stated before about others - little of how royal succession works.

As a student of history, I understand a great deal of how royal succession works. Possibly more than you. But as a student of philosophy, I also understand that being the son of a ruler grants no rights of any kind (if the word "rights" means anything worthwhile). As a student of ethics, I understand that the rightful wielder of power is the person who will wield it best. And as a human with at least half a brain, I understand that Robert, Stannis, Renly, Joffrey, Tommen, Robb, Viserys, and Daenerys are all ill-equipped for the job.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The brittle king, on the hand, would stop at absolutely nothing to sit the Iron Throne because he sees kingship as his right. His morality is completely disconnected from consequentialist ethics, and his sole motivation is essentially, "I've gone by the book my whole life, and now the book says I'm king." Davos may be my favorite character (close 2nd is Jon, and third is a mile behind both), but I cannot bring myself to hope that Stannis achieves his goal.

Don't get me wrong; Jon Snow is without any doubt Rhaegar's son, and if he ever becomes king (that's a pretty big 'if'), he would likely be better than either of them, or Daenerys for that matter. But he's no claimant, because he has made no claim. Regardless, speculation about Jon is pointless until his cliffhanger is resolved in tWoW. It's also highly likely that Young Griff is a Blackfyre; he's almost certainly no son of Rhaegar's. But none of this excuses the vitriol that I so often see slung at him by the fanbase. Just face it: you only dislike Young Griff because he arrived so late in the story, and it annoys you that your favorite Targaryens, Jon and Dany, would both come after Aegon in the line of succession.

He may not be a Targaryen, and he probably won't win the Iron Throne, but if you call him a spoiled brat, I'm gonna call you crazy.

Dany is my fav Targ? Mine? Heck no. I loathe her. I am one of her biggest haters. Just to be clear.

No one denied what Varys said that FAegon has done, he said it but if it is true is something completely different. The fact is that we haven't seen FAegon do nothing more than being examined at history and at foreign languages and we have seen him behaving like a spoiled brat when he lost a game, a simple game. That for me means that he will be even worse in more serious situations. I don't hate FAegon, criticize him or questioning him doesn't mean that I hate him I just don't care about him. But that doesn't mean that I cannot see the clues that he isn't a Targaryen.

For the Targaryen line of succession: I don't believe that they matter anymore. The Targaryens were overthrown and the only way to become the royal family once more is by conquering the throne. That means that the only line of succession for the Targs is about the head of the House. If FAegon is Rhaegar's then he is the Lord but since the possibility of him being the one he claims to be is less than 0.1% Jon is the Lord.

Can FAegon conquer KL and some parts of Westeros? Sure. Can FAegon keep the throne? No.

Imnsho the notion that FAegon is better than Stannis is simply at least silly.

[Arya Gendry]

No one denied what Varys said that FAegon has done, he said it but if it is true is something completely different. The fact is that we haven't seen FAegon do nothing more than being examined at history and at foreign languages and we have seen him behaving like a spoiled brat when he lost a game, a simple game. That for me means that he will be even worse in more serious situations. I don't hate FAegon, criticize him or questioning him doesn't mean that I hate him I just don't care about him. But that doesn't mean that I cannot see the clues that he isn't a Targaryen.

I don't believe that FAegon is a Targ, but the reasons that you gave here for NOT believing are, to me, things that would support his Targaryen-ness. Speaking numerous languages - Dany has proven adept at that as well. Foul temper - sound like Viserys or the Mad King? Of course, a fiery temper, along with hair and eye color, were also seen in the Blackfyre line. I guess it would be boring if all of the answers were easy.

Speaking of hair and eye color, I guess we are throwing all knowledge of Punnett Squares out the window? The way that assumptions of progeny are made based on looks are, well, medieval. If Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon, and Jon has Lyanna's dark hair and grey eyes (as he should - the darker gene would be dominant), then why would FAegon have platinum hair and violet eyes? Elia had the dark hair and eyes of Dorne. Any issue from the union of Elia and Rhaegar should have dark hair and eyes.

Sorry, off topic there. Aegon is fake. Stannis is the rightful heir.

[Buried Treasure]

I don't believe that FAegon is a Targ, but the reasons that you gave here for NOT believing are, to me, things that would support his Targaryen-ness. Speaking numerous languages - Dany has proven adept at that as well. Foul temper - sound like Viserys or the Mad King? Of course, a fiery temper, along with hair and eye color, were also seen in the Blackfyre line. I guess it would be boring if all of the answers were easy.

Speaking of hair and eye color, I guess we are throwing all knowledge of Punnett Squares out the window? The way that assumptions of progeny are made based on looks are, well, medieval. If Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon, and Jon has Lyanna's dark hair and grey eyes (as he should - the darker gene would be dominant), then why would FAegon have platinum hair and violet eyes? Elia had the dark hair and eyes of Dorne. Any issue from the union of Elia and Rhaegar should have dark hair and eyes.

Sorry, off topic there. Aegon is fake. Stannis is the rightful heir.

The looks that children in this universe inherit from their parents are driven more by Narrativium than genetics, but there is not much that can't be mostly.explained away. The Martell's do have a drop of Dornish blood from a few generations back so Elia could have the Targ-looking genes. And it is no assumption that Aegon had Targaryen looks - we know that from SSM (the collection of word- of-god statements available on this forum's host website).

Young Griffs looks, like his age, is something that must be the same regardless of whether he is the real Aegon or not - Varys is too competent a schemer to have provided a fake that was not a good match. And the kid's upbringing and education was left to a man that believes him to be the true prince - so that is a not a clue either. We will not learn whether this is the true Aegon by looking at Aegon himself, we will learn it from Varys and Illyrio.

[Skagosi High Chef]

Knowing what we know as reader's... Stannis is the rightful heir. Targs lost, get over it. Will they win it back? Who knows? But to be the ruling monarchy they must win it back because it isn't theirs' anymore. The Lannisters were not bold enough to state their own claim or they would be the ruling monarchy. Argue all day, but facts are facts.

[Aemond's Eye]

The brittle king, on the hand, would stop at absolutely nothing to sit the Iron Throne because he sees kingship as his right. His morality is completely disconnected from consequentialist ethics, and his sole motivation is essentially, "I've gone by the book my whole life, and now the book says I'm king." Davos may be my favorite character (close 2nd is Jon, and third is a mile behind both), but I cannot bring myself to hope that Stannis achieves his goal.

Don't get me wrong; Jon Snow is without any doubt Rhaegar's son, and if he ever becomes king (that's a pretty big 'if'), he would likely be better than either of them, or Daenerys for that matter. But he's no claimant, because he has made no claim. Regardless, speculation about Jon is pointless until his cliffhanger is resolved in tWoW. It's also highly likely that Young Griff is a Blackfyre; he's almost certainly no son of Rhaegar's. But none of this excuses the vitriol that I so often see slung at him by the fanbase. Just face it: you only dislike Young Griff because he arrived so late in the story, and it annoys you that your favorite Targaryens, Jon and Dany, would both come after Aegon in the line of succession.

He may not be a Targaryen, and he probably won't win the Iron Throne, but if you call him a spoiled brat, I'm gonna call you crazy.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Young Griff is a Targaryen - but he's not Rhaegar's son. I don't think Martin made mention of Aerion Brightflame having a son that was passed up in a past succession crisis, or of the male line of the Blackfyre being extinct for no reason. I think Young Griff could well be a descendant of Aerion, with a mother of Blackfyre ancestry.

[newbieone]

Conquest isn't really 'rightful', it's a legal construct to ratify at least the consequences of a land grab done by force. Conquest only really matters in the internal legal system of the conqueror's new kingdom plus recognittion by whatever other monarchs who recognize the conquest.

[SunflashJT]

Aegon's legitimacy really doesn't matter if you get right down to it. Who can prove he isn't Rhaegar's son?

[Viridiana]

Only if his really Aegon, but i suspect there may be some 'test' to see if he is the real deal. It's not to say, like Viserys, he can burn to death... but it would all but prove his legitimacy as at least part of the Targaryen bloodline if he didn't.

I still prefer Baratheon rule, i.e- Stannis or Shireen over the Targ's, because they were overthrown, it happened often in medieval times, this would be no exception. But i suspect there's something exceptional about Shireen Baratheon, Baratheons also descend from Targ blood but there's something about her, also the tie with Rh'llor and fire.

[SunflashJT]

Only if his really Aegon, but i suspect there may be some 'test' to see if he is the real deal. It's not to say, like Viserys, he can burn to death... but it would all but prove his legitimacy as at least part of the Targaryen bloodline if he didn't.

GRRM has stated in many interviews that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Even the books prove they aren't. Aerion Brightflame (Drank Wildfire), Aegon V and his Son Duncan (Tragedy of Summerhall), Viserys, Aegon II (Burnt by Dragon Fire), Rhaenyra (Burnt by Dragon fire).

So what kind of test would you suggest?

[Aemond's Eye]

Only if his really Aegon, but i suspect there may be some 'test' to see if he is the real deal. It's not to say, like Viserys, he can burn to death... but it would all but prove his legitimacy as at least part of the Targaryen bloodline if he didn't.

I still prefer Baratheon rule, i.e- Stannis or Shireen over the Targ's, because they were overthrown, it happened often in medieval times, this would be no exception. But i suspect there's something exceptional about Shireen Baratheon, Baratheons also descend from Targ blood but there's something about her, also the tie with Rh'llor and fire.

I don't see Shireen ever being Queen. The books show her as kind and good natured, and we're most likely supposed to be aghast at Val's comments on her - but I reckon there's some truth to what Val says. I don't think any good will come of Shireen being so close to the others.

[Aemond Blackfyre]

Someone earlier talked that he was a spoiled brat. BULLSHIT, he Lead the siege of Storms end himself he lead the charge. And he still won storms end is captured and so is Stormlands. Hes good in almost everything hes ambitious , good with language , handsome , a good fighter , he got a good army standing behind him And he got good commanders. Dorne will probably side with him its just a matter of time. If they do it then he would have a bigger chance of taking the iron throne than stannis. he might be real or not. I would still back him upp. He got the traits of a good targaryen if he is one.

[JonSnow4President]

Someone earlier talked that he was a spoiled brat. BULLSHIT, he Lead the siege of Storms end himself he lead the charge. And he still won storms end is captured and so is Stormlands. Hes good in almost everything hes ambitious , good with language , handsome , a good fighter , he got a good army standing behind him And he got good commanders. Dorne will probably side with him its just a matter of time. If they do it then he would have a bigger chance of taking the iron throne than stannis. he might be real or not. I would still back him upp. He got the traits of a good targaryen if he is one.

And what does that have to do with him being a spoiled brat? Spoiled brat and successful are not mutually exclusive.

[Aemond Blackfyre]

obviously you dont what a spoiled brat means. Joffrey is a spoiled brat , Aegon isnt

[The Eunuch]

As for proving he is a blackfyre

Illyrio himself pretty much said so "Black or Red a dragon is a dragon"

Sorry but taking a sentence out of context is quite dumb... You should re-read this chapter, because it says the contrary.

Tyrion asks why the Golden Company would support Aegon if he is a Targaryen (regarding the fact that they supported Blackfyre), and that's when Illyrio answers "Black or Red a dragon is still a dragon". He doesn't say Aegon is a Blackfyre, he says that because there is no more Blackfyre, they will support what is still a dragon : a Targaryen.

Based on our current knowledge and sources it is very clear that Aegon is the trueborn son of Rhaegar.

You're absolutely right.

[manishramesh]

I think Aegon is an impostor. In my opinion, Aegon is Illeryo's son. There is no other way to explain his fondness towards the boy. the notion that Illeryo would personally love some kid just because the kid is such a good and noble kid does not sit well with his character.

I think Aegon is his child by his second wife, the bed-slave he feed and married. This fits as well, because we know the bed slave was from lyse, and we know the people from lyse have the Targarean features, so Aegon could have inherited his Targ looks from his mother. We also know that Mopatis loved his wife very much which would explain why he had such a great fondness toward Aegon.

I think this is why both Varys and Illerio don't reveal his identity until Viserys was dead, because Viserys would be the only person who has seen baby Aegon alive, and even though Viserys wouldn't be able to disprove Aegon's identity, he would claim fraud and the conspirators wouldn't want take that chance. Remember Aegon's claim to the throne is better than Viserys's or Danny's.So shouldn't the initial plan be for Aegon to command the invasion of Westeros with the Dothraki and the golden company instead of Viserys. This plan would have had more chance of success because both Illrio and Varys knew Viserys was a moron so why didn't they reveal Aegon in the first book.

Also explains why both Varys and Illerio care so much about putting him on the throne, I see no other gain for either for caring and for all the BS Varys says about I do what I do for the realm and I serve the realm. Its not even his realm, so why should he care who sits the throne.

[corbon]

I think Aegon is an impostor. In my opinion, Aegon is Illeryo's son. There is no other way to explain his fondness towards the boy. the notion that Illeryo would personally love some kid just because the kid is such a good and noble kid does not sit well with his character.

Yeah, because its utterly unknown for childless aging men to be genuinely fond of personable young men in whom they see their youthful selves.

/sarcasm

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yeah, because its utterly unknown for childless aging men to be genuinely fond of personable young men in whom they see their youthful selves.

/sarcasm

I get the sarcasm but I think it's something beyond that. Not that he is his real son (there is a chance, although small, that he is) but he actually was in charge of Aegon when he was young and he considered him a son. Where was he before being given to Connington? We don't know. We do know that Tyrion found some child clothes when he stayed with Illyrio. Those could have easily belonged to Aegon. Also, I think one of the reasons for him not taking care of Dany and Viserys is that maybe Aegon was still there when Dany and Viserys were kicked out Willem Darry's house. We know Aegon was always on the run but I guess that while he was still young, around eight years old, he was still under Illyrio's protection in some way.

[manishramesh]

Yeah, because its utterly unknown for childless aging men to be genuinely fond of personable young men in whom they see their youthful selves.

/sarcasm

sure may be he likes aegon because he sees himself in him fond enough to send him candied ginger but to justify the amount of time, money and resources they have spent to put the kid on the throne? come on! you really think Illeryo and Varys are so generous, without any other motives?

[manishramesh]

I get the sarcasm but I think it's something beyond that. Not that he is his real son (there is a chance, although small, that he is) but he actually was in charge of Aegon when he was young and he considered him a son. Where was he before being given to Connington? We don't know. We do know that Tyrion found some child clothes when he stayed with Illyrio. Those could have easily belonged to Aegon. Also, I think one of the reasons for him not taking care of Dany and Viserys is that maybe Aegon was still there when Dany and Viserys were kicked out Willem Darry's house. We know Aegon was always on the run but I guess that while he was still young, around eight years old, he was still under Illyrio's protection in some way.

But if you think Varys did save Aegon why didn't he save his sister too, if he can find one kid with Targ features to fool the Lanister men he can find another girl.

Its not like Ellaria would say 'save my son but don't bother about my daughter I don't care so much about her!'