[BOOK SPOILERS] The Brawl at the Tavern

[Daske]

... Arya slashed him down low on his legs.

For some reason this took me back about 30 years - this was also a favourite tactic of that other dimiutive warrior, Reepicheep the Mouse!

[Woman of War]

I guess Sandor won't become an undertaker on the Quiet Isle but a chicken farmer :)

Seriously, the show may want to present the wonderful dymamics of Arya and the Hound as long as possible and so Sandor may get wounded only towards the end of the season.

And then there is the slight problem that Sandor's infatuation with Sansa has never been shown in all its blatant ambiguity, show watchers can speculate if he feels like a daddy replacement, an older brother or if he is in love with her. But there never was that brutal sexual assault with knife at throat. So that ugly outburst of the dying man when he hears about Sansa's marriage and has to assume that Tyrion fucked her would come totally out of nowhere for show viewers, there was never that violent raging sexuality towards Sansa. And it might appear as overly constructed if Sandor wants to move Arya into giving the gift of mercy to him. They already are kind of buddies now and may be more so later in the season, she won't hate him anymore enough to cherish his death. If the gift of mercy were truly mercy and not revenge she would do it out of kindness, twisted as that euthanasia may appear to us.

Only I have always seen it as cowardice from Sandor's side if he needs a little girl for committing suicide, he should be man enough to do the deed himself. In that context he would not present that hateful outburst towards Sansa and Tyrion in order to make Arya kill him, he would just ask if he feels unable to take the responsibility for his own life himself.

Did Sandor have to spend a time out on the QI for story's sake? Yes, since I am quite sure that at some point of the story Martin was not at all sure that he wishes to bring Sandor back. Maybe the immense popularity of show Sandor will convince him to keep the Hound in the game for a badass finale later. Did Sandor have to do time on the QI for his character's sake? Maybe, if a "reformed" Sandor can be presented as study of someone who is not hypocrite when making a 180 degree turn with his life, at least I don't see him as future religious nutcase but as someone who might want to make a difference.

But show Sandor simply is a different character imo. He has those comedy aspects that are wonderfully on spot, not overdone but entirely within show characterization. But at the same time show Sandor lacks a bit of the inner torments, bordering to washing over his having killed Mycah and having been Lannister's willing executioner (just like Bronn: both are horrible human beings and yet we enjoy enjoying them), compared to book Sandor. Show Sandor is far less at odds with himself, far less being eaten by his inner ghosts, he is the laconic clever cynic with a heart of....what? And it is Arya that counts for him.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I guess Sandor won't become an undertaker on the Quiet Isle but a chicken farmer :)

Seriously, the show may want to present the wonderful dymamics of Arya and the Hound as long as possible and so Sandor may get wounded only towards the end of the season.

And then there is the slight problem that Sandor's infatuation with Sansa has never been shown in all its blatant ambiguity, show watchers can speculate if he feels like a daddy replacement, an older brother or if he is in love with her. But there never was that brutal sexual assault with knife at throat. So that ugly outburst of the dying man when he hears about Sansa's marriage and has to assume that Tyrion fucked her would come totally out of nowhere for show viewers, there was never that violent raging sexuality towards Sansa. And it might appear as overly constructed if Sandor wants to move Arya into giving the gift of mercy to him. They already are kind of buddies now and may be more so later in the season, she won't hate him anymore enough to cherish his death. If the gift of mercy were truly mercy and not revenge she would do it out of kindness, twisted as that euthanasia may appear to us.

Only I have always seen it as cowardice from Sandor's side if he needs a little girl for committing suicide, he should be man enough to do the deed himself. In that context he would not present that hateful outburst towards Sansa and Tyrion in order to make Arya kill him, he would just ask if he feels unable to take the responsibility for his own life himself.

Did Sandor have to spend a time out on the QI for story's sake? Yes, since I am quite sure that at some point of the story Martin was not at all sure that he wishes to bring Sandor back. Maybe the immense popularity of show Sandor will convince him to keep the Hound in the game for a badass finale later. Did Sandor have to do time on the QI for his character's sake? Maybe, if a "reformed" Sandor can be presented as study of someone who is not hypocrite when making a 180 degree turn with his life, at least I don't see him as future religious nutcase but as someone who might want to make a difference.

But show Sandor simply is a different character imo. He has those comedy aspects that are wonderfully on spot, not overdone but entirely within show characterization. But at the same time show Sandor lacks a bit of the inner torments, bordering to washing over his having killed Mycah and having been Lannister's willing executioner (just like Bronn: both are horrible human beings and yet we enjoy enjoying them), compared to book Sandor. Show Sandor is far less at odds with himself, far less being eaten by his inner ghosts, he is the laconic clever cynic with a heart of....what? And it is Arya that counts for him.

I read a really long interview with Rory (rolling stone, I think?) and he did say that the road trip with him and Arya continue some this season, and that he will be opening up to her. I don't think he meant in a buddy, buddy type thing, but it will still be tension along with the budding reliance on each other. I don't think it's much of problem, the differences from the book, being as they shortened their travel time before the Twins and even up to killing Polliver. Anyway, from the interview with Rory, it does sound like a lot of The Hound's personal issues will be addressed, so the character may become closer to the book. I'm not sure on how they will play the Sansa issue, but The Hound's issues themselves, seem to be coming.

[Chebyshov]

I read a really long interview with Rory (rolling stone, I think?) and he did say that the road trip with him and Arya continue some this season, and that he will be opening up to her. I don't think he meant in a buddy, buddy type thing, but it will still be tension along with the budding reliance on each other. I don't think it's much of problem, the differences from the book, being as they shortened their travel time before the Twins and even up to killing Polliver. Anyway, from the interview with Rory, it does sound like a lot of The Hound's personal issues will be addressed, so the character may become closer to the book. I'm not sure on how they will play the Sansa issue, but The Hound's issues themselves, seem to be coming.

Eeenteresting. Sounds like what we were sort of predicting. Based on the tavern scene, I'd happily watch an Arya and the Hound spin-off show; a great pairing. I'd be very surprised if the Sansa subject is broached much...last season he told Arya that he had saved Sansa at one point. However Rory's age I think would prohibit addressing any of the tension found in the books. There might be a couple lines that serve as fan service for book readers, but I doubt anything is going to be made super explicit.

[Woman of War]

Hm, interesting, we will see.

So far I saw the possibility that Sandor and Arya may go separate ways with Sandor either truly dying or Arya simply leaving him without him being wounded and we lose sight of him for a while.

Actually the death scene was a really strong one, with all its ugliness, hatespeak and misery. Only I never got why a guy like Sandor would not be able to slit his own throat but needed a child to do the deed for him. Did he want to make Arya happy with the pleasure of killing him or simply get rid of his hatred for Tyrion and aggression/attraction towards Sansa?

But as you describe it, Lady Fevre Dream, we are back to the open question from the books: Sandor or no Sandor in the future

Casting for season five or six will tell us :D

[Le Cygne]

They certainly went there that he doesn't think of her as a sister, he was looking at her breasts in two scenes, and the one scene they released in a way to draw attention to it, as everyone looked for the dragon eggs. I don't think anyone's age is stopping them. Most of the male actors are playing down in age, and they had Sansa respond quite positively to the thought of having sex with Loras last season.

So if they wanted to keep going there with the book story, they certainly could. There are many of us who want to see it, too. Reviewers called it out as a Beauty and the Beast story, they called it out on the commentary for Blackwater, too, and GRRM said they went there on the show, there's something there (that wasn't there before, couldn't resist adding that).

In the recent scene, there are hints, too. They cut from Sansa to Sandor. Arya asks, "Didn't you steal anything from Joffrey before you left?" And he answers really quickly, "No." Doesn't sound happy. In the books, he's going on and on about Sansa, he brings her up nearly a dozen times. She was on his mind, and it makes sense that she would be on the show, too.

Arya knows the Brotherhood took his money, so why not just have her say that. Arya is talking about money, Sandor is talking about something else. Two things stand out, "from Joffrey" and "before you left" - and what did he do just before he left? He tried to get Sansa (Joffrey's betrothed at the time) to go with him, and he was a mess from the fire, and that didn't go so well. And he just left, he didn't make her go with him.

Also, they didn't get into the rest, I don't think, because the PW hasn't happened yet, but they have to get into Sandor and Arya finding out what happened to Sansa.

[Woman of War]

Are you suggesting that Arya has any idea that Sandor might be interested in Sansa? How could she, no way, she was gone from KL.

But even if Sandor had double thoughts about Arya's question - and of course he tried to take Joffrey's fiancée out of KL - we do not know show Sandor's motivations and they were for sure not full of that sexual aggression, they were kinder, not something that could be used to make Arya want to kill him.

So I still wonder how they want to play that dying scene with Arya refusing the gift of mercy - out of hatred or out of respect that has grown? Sandor so weak that he is unable to hold a knife and getting rid of himself on his own and yet Arya refuses? There will probably not be a Sansa speech in its painful agressive cruelty, it would more be a summary full of regret, if Sansa gets mentioned at all. HBO Sandor simply never considered raping Sansa.

[Le Cygne]

Just throwing out some text, here...

The official app says this:

"Riding with King Robert to Winterfell, Sandor first meets Sansa Stark and becomes infatuated with her...

"During the Battle of the Blackwater, Clegane leads a force attempting to hold the King's Gate, but is unable to fulfill his duties due to his fear of the burning wildfire raging on the river and on the docks. Instead, he finds his way to Sansa Stark's chambers, where he forces her to sing him a song while trying to work up the courage to take her with him out of the city. Her fear of him -- as well as her song -- makes him leave without her...

"Arya considers killing him, and the Hound attempts to force her into it by telling her how he killed Mycah and how he made Sansa sing for him."

So it's about making her sing while trying to work up the courage to take her with him, and later, the relevant point is the same. And he didn't take her with him. And these bad things happened to her. And that's why he's sobbing. Pretty straightforward, right from the text.

In the books, he just heard Sansa got married, and reacted pretty strongly to the news. He hopes Cersei will torture Tyrion ("She ought to dip him in wildfire and cook him. Or tickle him till the moon turns black.") Then the wound gets infected, and he's feverish, and he tries to get Arya to give him the gift of mercy. He's still worried about Sansa, and he starts sobbing, and says he should have done more to protect her. Then he says the line about Tyrion raping Sansa, he blames himself for not taking her with him. He could have spared her this ("before leaving her for that dwarf").

Books and show, Sandor hates rapists, he calls them rats ("A dog doesn't need courage to chase off rats"). In the show, he just saved Arya from rapists, and in the books and show, he saved Sansa from rapists, and he tells Arya about it. Sansa wishes he was there when she's afraid of rapists, Blackwater, she thinks "I would be gladder if it were the Hound... Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her," and Marillion, she thinks Sandor is there to save her again, "It was Lothor Brune's voice, she realized. Not the Hound's, no, how could it be?" Books and show have made it clear, Sandor is not a rapist.

(added some more quotes)

[Woman of War]

Uups, I lost a post

@le Cygne

I guess half of the men at KL stared at Sansa's breast and fantazised about her naked, and so did Sandor.:)

Are you suggesting that Arya knew about Sandor's special interest in Sansa? How could she?

And yes, Sandor did indeed try to steal Joffreys fiancée but the show leaves the reason for it quite open: he cares for her but how? He may genuinely have wanted to protect her, he may have liked and fancied her but there never was that sexual aggression towards her like in the books. And now making that ugly hateful confession and rapewish towards Arya would be kind of artificial, out of context. I guess there would more be some sad regret, I fancied your sister, so what.....certainly not something Arya would want to kill him for, if he mentions Sansa at all.

So how would he try to get Arya to kill him and why? Show Sandor never intended to rape Sansa. I mean he could simply send Arya away and rid himself of himself by his own hand, somehow he does not strike as lacking the courage for it. If the hatred between Arya and Sandor has been diluted and any hatespeak of Sansa is out of the story - how do that parting scene?

In your last post you gave your very personal interpretation of what Sansa thinks about Sandor but how would this influence the parting scene of Sandor and Arya? The show can only use what has already happened in the show. And there Sandor may have or not loving memories of Sansa but no aggressive ones that may Make Arya kill him. Or it would be a completely fabricated hatespeech from a dying man.

[JonDunn]

I honestly think this is one of the best scenes of the series. Very cinematic. The dialogue was crackling, and as good as the Hound and Arya were, it needs to be said that Polliver was excellent too.

His line of 'torture, torture, torture, torture' had me cracking up.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Uups, I lost a post

@le Cygne

I guess half of the men at KL stared at Sansa's breast and fantazised about her naked, and so did Sandor. :)

Are you suggesting that Arya knew about Sandor's special interest in Sansa? How could she?

And yes, Sandor did indeed try to steal Joffreys fiancée but the show leaves the reason for it quite open: he cares for her but how? He may genuinely have wanted to protect her, he may have liked and fancied her but there never was that sexual aggression towards her like in the books. And now making that ugly hateful confession and rapewish towards Arya would be kind of artificial, out of context. I guess there would more be some sad regret, I fancied your sister, so what.....certainly not something Arya would want to kill him for, if he mentions Sansa at all.

So how would he try to get Arya to kill him and why? Show Sandor never intended to rape Sansa. I mean he could simply send Arya away and rid himself of himself by his own hand, somehow he does not strike as lacking the courage for it. If the hatred between Arya and Sandor has been diluted and any hatespeak of Sansa is out of the story - how do that parting scene?

In your last post you gave your very personal interpretation of what Sansa thinks about Sandor but how would this influence the parting scene of Sandor and Arya? The show can only use what has already happened in the show. And there Sandor may have or not loving memories of Sansa but no aggressive ones that may Make Arya kill him. Or it would be a completely fabricated hatespeech from a dying man.

Has GRRM or anyone ever said that Sandor really was considering raping her? Unless George says that is the absolute truth, for the time being as I read it...........I don't think he wanted to rape her. I think he wanted her to come with him, yes, and perhaps hoped for something. All that rage about rape and Sansa in the 'mercy' scene with Arya was about Sandor trying to anger Arya into killing him. Perhaps the actual idea of screaming rape or the idea of attempted rape came from his own sexual feelings about Sansa along with his fear that Tyrion did exactly that to Sansa, but I for one never thought he wanted to rape Sansa that night. He wanted to have sex with her, either then or some day, but the whole 'rape speech' to Arya was, IMO unless GRRM says otherwise, him trying to egg Arya on into killing him.

I could be wrong, I get that, but I just thought it was more so about Sandor's complex feelings for Sansa, his fear that she really was raped by Tyrion, and his desire to force Arya to kill him.

[Le Cygne]

Has GRRM or anyone ever said that Sandor really was considering raping her? Unless George says that is the absolute truth, for the time being as I read it...........I don't think he wanted to rape her. I think he wanted her to come with him, yes, and perhaps hoped for something. All that rage about rape and Sansa in the 'mercy' scene with Arya was about Sandor trying to anger Arya into killing him. Perhaps the actual idea of screaming rape or the idea of attempted rape came from his own sexual feelings about Sansa along with his fear that Tyrion did exactly that to Sansa, but I for one never thought he wanted to rape Sansa that night. He wanted to have sex with her, either then or some day, but the whole 'rape speech' to Arya was, IMO unless GRRM says otherwise, him trying to egg Arya on into killing him.

I could be wrong, I get that, but I just thought it was more so about Sandor's complex feelings for Sansa, his fear that she really was raped by Tyrion, and his desire to force Arya to kill him.

Yes, exactly. That's why I quoted from the official app, that went throught GRRM, and it's about making her sing while trying to work up the courage to rescue her (take her with him) and he also made that clear in the script. Also, when he described the difference between the show and book scene, he said he made her sing in the books. That's all.

Also, there's a really nice line in the books, there's a progression showing how much it bothered him to see her beaten, and how he felt he'd failed her by standing there in his white cloak and letting them do it. He really couldn't have done more than he did, which was give her advice, try to head Joffrey off from doing it, and help her afterwards, but that he blamed himself is pretty revealing. He said this, which I thought was good, "No one would hurt you again."

So add that to all that he tried to do, and "Enough" and "Fuck the king" and then later, bringing it up repeatedly to Arya. After the Beric fight, "I watched them beat your sister bloody too" - that's him saying he failed her. And then he tells Arya, "I never beat your sister." And then finally (rule of three), he says, "I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her" while sobbing. That's his dying regret, that he didn't protect her better.

Also the "I hate gutless frauds" line - he's talking about himself there. He regrets not doing more for Sansa.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Yes, exactly. That's why I quoted from the official app, that went throught GRRM, and it's about making her sing while trying to work up the courage to rescue her (take her with him) and he also made that clear in the script. Also, when he described the difference between the show and book scene, he said he made her sing in the books. That's all.

Thanks, I've never been up on all the SSMs around here. That's always been my take on the scenes, but wasn't exactly sure.

I'm sure some of the issues with Sansa and Sandor will come up, especially being as we've had PigBoy Polliver look at even Arya in a sexual manner. I love the hell out of Rory as The Hound, but I wonder if his age in comparison to Sophie's will effect things in a severe manner. He does seem older than the Hound. Granted, they don't give him an age in the show really, but I think it's obvious that Rory himself is older than Sandor, or it seems that way to me, maybe I'm wrong?

ETA: Those are good observations on the show, too. All the new FUCK THE KING from him is telling, that and I do agree, as I've seen posted previously that the comment about not stealing from Joffrey was not taking Joff's betrothed with him.

[Woman of War]

.....

but the whole 'rape speech' to Arya was, IMO unless GRRM says otherwise, him trying to egg Arya on into killing him.

I could be wrong, I get that, but I just thought it was more so about Sandor's complex feelings for Sansa, his fear that she really was raped by Tyrion, and his desire to force Arya to kill him.

I think at some point Sandor wanted to rape Sansa, only he did not. There is that intentional parallel of Tyrion and Sandor in the books, both did not in the end but considered it at some point - just as it has been mitigated in both cases by HBO. And that cooling down in both cases makes it difficult to establish the emotions in both cases. Martin wanted to parallel the two men.

And I do not really get at all why Sandor would have wanted to provoke Arya into killing him. He could have done it himself. Did he want that karmic punishment by Sansa's sister since he knew quite well about the evil intentions he had in the books? He need not have them in HBO though. And then there may be no provocation. How will Arya and Sandor part then?

[Le Cygne]

Thanks, I've never been up on all the SSMs around here. That's always been my take on the scenes, but wasn't exactly sure.

I'm sure some of the issues with Sansa and Sandor will come up, especially being as we've had PigBoy Polliver look at even Arya in a sexual manner. I love the hell out of Rory as The Hound, but I wonder if his age in comparison to Sophie's will effect things in a severe manner. He does seem older than the Hound. Granted, they don't give him an age in the show really, but I think it's obvious that Rory himself is older than Sandor, or it seems that way to me, maybe I'm wrong?

ETA: Those are good observations on the show, too. All the new FUCK THE KING from him is telling, that and I do agree, as I've seen posted previously that the comment about not stealing from Joffrey was not taking Joff's betrothed with him.

You're right, there's a 15 year age difference in the books, that's the same as Dany and Drogo and Daario, Jaime and Brienne, etc. He's 29 in the books. But I think Rory is playing down in age, like most of the male actors.

[Karmarni]

That torture line from Polliver, both Arya and Sandor know exactly what that meant from Gregor and his men. The camera shows both their faces and we know what must be going through their minds. I think that will play a part later.

No, never saw Sandor as a rapist and neither does Jaime in his ADwD thoughts. The show is all about the difference between the Clegane brothers. Sandor is shouting that out to the Brotherhood in his pre-trial speech. Couldn't be plainer. Also, pretty certain he won't die. No book spoiler on that one. And foreshadowed on the show with the "Have you found god?" sneer and the "Go in peace, Sandor Clegane" from Beric.

As for the dying request for mercy, all the Hound has to do is say he failed to protect Sansa, that he meant to steal her. And his regret for Mycah. That Arya in the books says she can't even recall him that much is just GRRM highlighting how regretful Sandor must be. Perhaps he angers her in other ways on the show. They aren't playing by the books 100% obviously. Arya has had a few lines that seem to suggest she herself wishes she had cared more for Sansa, I recall the delivery of her line to Ja'qen.

And just for the record, I too think Sandor went to her room to take her with him. That he asked for Florian and Jonquil because that's the song she said she'd sing. Even though he initially was talking about 'singing' in the ASOIAF slang way. At Blackwater, she couldn't look at him. Angered him, and so he went for a real song. It was all he was going to get and then he must've assumed he'd never see her again. He does that in the same way as in Dunk and Egg. He cries because he's leaving.

The show Hound looked pretty sad to leave her too. I am pretty certain they'll go there with that.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

I thought the dialogue was weird and kinda lame. I know its not a popular opinion. I enjoyed the scene during the show, loved the whole episode, but I didn't get the chicken joke. I also guess I was expecting a more heated confrontation like in the novels.

That's funny - I thought the setup and aftermath were tremendous but the fight itself was both horribly conceived and executed.

The shaky handheld camera made it difficult to follow the action and made me nauseous. It was confusing to see Arya stand there doing nothing for 90% of the brawl (did she think that things would have ended well for her after they killed the Hound??). Sandor is fighting with 3 guys at once but rather than finish any of them off he knocks each them to the ground, allowing them to recover and overtake him. Despite being flat on his back on the ground, he suddenly morphs to his feet and pops into frame from out of nowhere to step on a guy's sword and punch him in the face.

Then we have my favorite part: despite having rather easily handled these guys in 2-on-1 and 3-on-1 situations, Sandor finds himself 1-on-1 with the smallest of the bunch - so of course the guy takes him to the ground with almost no effort at all. Luckily for the Hound, however, the guy decides not to kill him but rather rest the blade of his knife on Sandor's neck while he recovers. He pushes the guy's head away, which accomplishes nothing as the knife blade is still easily within range of his neck, but eventually the Hound regains the upper hand.

A little pokey pokey to the face, Arya finally wakes up, executes the weirdest and slowest stabbing in the history of sword fighting, and our good friend Polliver decides to ignore the loud smashing of the vase and screaming of his friend being killed 8 feet behind him and take a very casual stroll in the opposite direction. He's slashed from behind, falls face first to the ground, is unable to scramble away but manages to flip onto his back to facilitate a close up and some dialogue with his killer.

I read someone describe it as "amateur hour" and I couldn't agree more.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I think at some point Sandor wanted to rape Sansa, only he did not. There is that intentional parallel of Tyrion and Sandor in the books, both did not in the end but considered it at some point - just as it has been mitigated in both cases by HBO. And that cooling down in both cases makes it difficult to establish the emotions in both cases. Martin wanted to parallel the two men.

And I do not really get at all why Sandor would have wanted to provoke Arya into killing him. He could have done it himself. Did he want that karmic punishment by Sansa's sister since he knew quite well about the evil intentions he had in the books? He need not have them in HBO though. And then there may be no provocation. How will Arya and Sandor part then?

I'm not sure that I get why he wanted Arya to do it either, some people, regardless of the many other type of things they do, are just chicken (not intended to be a pun, but, LOL) when it comes to killing themselves. Perhaps even a part of him wanted to hear Arya dispute that he deserved to die.

I don't deny that Sandor wanted her, but I do think his overall rough manner gets interpreted the wrong way, not saying you specifically. Regardless of his speech, I take him to be the equivalent of a "Shitmouth," he talks a nasty game but I wouldn't be surprised if his POV in his own mind was quite different.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

You're right, there's a 15 year age difference in the books, that's the same as Dany and Drogo and Daario, Jaime and Brienne, etc. He's 29 in the books. But I think Rory is playing down in age, like most of the male actors.

I think they haven't told us his age on the show and they are or will play his age down, ITA. I'm not even sure how old Rory is, but just by old pictures of him, and various things I've picked up in interviews, I'd say it's definately not 29, LOL

[Chebyshov]

Rory is 44. I think if Sansa and Sandor was going to be a thing they would have cast younger. 15 years in Westeros standards isn't that much, so you could see that pairing happen eventually. But the actors are what, 26 years apart?

Maybe D&D want Sansa's storyline to go in a different direction, or maybe when the cast for the pilot episode they didn't even think to check if the Hound was going to end up with someone. It will be interesting to see if/how Show!Sansa is discussed between the Hound and Arya for the rest of the season, though.