[BOOK SPOILERS] The Brawl at the Tavern

[Woman of War]

I don't deny that Sandor wanted her, but I do think his overall rough manner gets interpreted the wrong way, not saying you specifically. Regardless of his speech, I take him to be the equivalent of a "Shitmouth," he talks a nasty game but I wouldn't be surprised if his POV in his own mind was quite different.

I agree at least that Sandor did not enter Sansa's room with the intention to rape Sansa. But his story is sooo much more interesting if he oscillated between rough sexual agression and paternal protection than if he only was her true knight, as HBO chose to interpret it. Just like the original wedding night chapter of Sansa and Tyrion was so much more complex than what HBO could, for obvious reasons, Sansa's age and no boner, present.

I'm not sure that I get why he wanted Arya to do it either, some people, regardless of the many other type of things they do, are just chicken (not intended to be a pun, but, LOL) when it comes to killing themselves. Perhaps even a part of him wanted to hear Arya dispute that he deserved to die.

This may be spot on, especially the last sentence. Sandor hoped that he in a way had won Arya over, he had started to respect her and wanted to be valued by her.

Edit: I love the dynamics of those two characters.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I agree at least that Sandor did not enter Sansa's room with the intention to rape Sansa. But his story is sooo much more interesting if he oscillated between rough sexual agression and paternal protection than if he only was her true knight, as HBO chose to interpret it. Just like the original wedding night chapter of Sansa and Tyrion was so much more complex than what HBO could, for obvious reasons, Sansa's age and no boner, present.

This may be spot on, especially the last sentence. Sandor hoped that he in a way had won Arya over, he had started to respect her and wanted to be valued by her.

Edit: I love the dynamics of those two characters.

I really, really do think that Sandor respected the hell out of Arya, and I've always thought that he did want to hear her say: I had you all wrong. He may have even been willing to kill himself then, so I'm grateful Arya was well, Arya. I love the Hound and Arya dynamics as much, if not moreso, than the one with Sansa.

I do think Sandor was fighting urges, and who knows, with how drunk he was, he might have even scared himself. He might have been afraid he couldn't control himself. But, things like rape are one of his hot button issues, it's obvious how much he hates to see abuse, he hates to see power used to hurt others, just for the jollies.

I think they will get into some of the romance/love issues with Sansa and Sandor. I have no idea of the true endgame of anything in the books, but........perhaps the age thing with Rory shows us that he may not be her end game, romantically. It's all the inbetween that we'll have to wait for, books and show. I HATE WAITING, LOL

ETA: I do think lots of things have been changed because of Sophie's true age. I think even the laws are stricter now with actors and certain sexual scenes than they were years ago. It's strange, with HBO's boobfest being always present, and the expectation of such things with sex or almost sex scenes or scenes of a sexual nature, might be what has led to some of these changes. No boobs, no..........book scene? No peen shown to a minor? nvrmind, it could be that simple.

ETA: Excuse typing and grammar, taking care of sick hubby inbetween posting.

[Le Cygne]

That's funny - I thought the setup and aftermath were tremendous but the fight itself was both horribly conceived and executed.

I do see some of your issues with the brawl. At any rate, those of us who characterized it as being like the wild west, that seems to be the intention. At the end of the script, "Two killers ride off into the sunset."

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Rory is 44. I think if Sansa and Sandor was going to be a thing they would have cast younger. 15 years in Westeros standards isn't that much, so you could see that pairing happen eventually. But the actors are what, 26 years apart?

Maybe D&D want Sansa's storyline to go in a different direction, or maybe when the cast for the pilot episode they didn't even think to check if the Hound was going to end up with someone. It will be interesting to see if/how Show!Sansa is discussed between the Hound and Arya for the rest of the season, though.

Thank you. His age looks hard to peg, but I knew it wasn't 29.

[Le Cygne]

I think they will get into some of the romance/love issues with Sansa and Sandor.

I hope so, I want to see it on the show, it's fiction, it's fantasy, they have dragons, let's see it all. Books I'm sure we will. Never seen so much build up for a kiss, ever. GRRM seems to like age gaps, look at Nettles and Daemon. I always get the impression he's this really polite sort of guy, but he thumbs his nose at his critics.

Thank you. His age looks hard to peg, but I knew it wasn't 29.

In the pilot, they set Sandor as 30's.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I do see some of your issues with the brawl. At any rate, those of us who characterized it as being like the wild west, that seems to be the intention. At the end of the script, "Two killers ride off into the sunset."

With a pony and some CHICKEN!! :lmao:

Hell, that ALMOST made me forget about Needle. Almost. I loved how Arya added that 'my brother gave me that sword.' I suppose Jon Snow and The Wall will come up between Arya and Sandor. Afterall, they have to try the Lysa idea, give up on it, and maybe even, play father and daughter at a village somewhere? I can't wait.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I hope so, I want to see it on the show, it's fiction, it's fantasy, they have dragons, let's see it all. Books I'm sure we will. Never seen so much build up for a kiss, ever. GRRM seems to like age gaps, look at Nettles and Daemon. I always get the impression he's this really polite sort of guy, but he thumbs his nose at his critics.

I like age gaps myself. ;) I FINALLY figured out who Rory McCann reminds me of...........Sean Connery, just not as good looking. Speaking of age gaps, I hated Sean Connery when I was real young (blame my father and James Bond movie marathons, LOL), and it wasn't til he was much older that I thought he was good looking. Connery was much more handsome as an older man. Rory looks like he could be his cousin, especially when I see him without the Hound wig.

And, soon, Sophie will be of age, if she's not already, LOL

[Le Cygne]

I like age gaps myself. ;) I FINALLY figured out who Rory McCann reminds me of...........Sean Connery, just not as good looking. Speaking of age gaps, I hated Sean Connery when I was real young (blame my father and James Bond movie marathons, LOL), and it wasn't til he was much older that I thought he was good looking. Connery was much more handsome as an older man. Rory looks like he could be his cousin, especially when I see him without the Hound wig.

And, soon, Sophie will be of age, if she's not already, LOL

She's 18. She's in a new movie with a 40 something costar. Something between them, too.

Sean Connery, oh, my, fans self. He's ageless. Cary Grant, too.

[Hound's She-wolf]

Thank you. His age looks hard to peg, but I knew it wasn't 29.

What I find funny is they have a 44 year old actor playing someone who should be in his twenties in the books, but is in his thirties in the show while the new New Mountain is 25 in RL so he is 20 years younger than his 'younger' brother.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

What I find funny is they have a 44 year old actor playing someone who should be in his twenties in the books, but is in his thirties in the show while the new New Mountain is 25 in RL so he is 20 years younger than his 'younger' brother.

As far as The Mountain, I just give up, LOL I'm just hoping this one comes off like the one from the first season and a bit of the books.

I don't have a problem with recasting when absolutely necessary. It's a shame how much The Mountain's character has suffered, I do wonder how much of his ominous presence non readers really feel. One character I wish that they had recast was The Great Jon. I think it was important to show that Robb, first off, still had fiercely loyal and supportive bannermen, and well, I think his presence was greatly missed for that and the RW. Considering that The Great Jon is still a prisoner of the Frey family and being used to blackmail half of the North, I wonder if that's a problem that D&D will pay for, later on.

[Lord Spark of House Spark]

I thought the scene was done pretty damn well, however I'm on board with the "psychotic repeating of questions while brutually stabbing him" being more impactful. The problem is they basically took two great revenge kills from Arya (The Tickler & Raff) and morphed them into 1. It was a good scene, but it all goes back to why the hell did they have to kill the Tickler??? Just sucks that the best part of the TWOW Mercy sample chapter is now eliminated from the show. Oh well, still quite the scene.

:agree: this

[boojam]

I thought the scene was done pretty damn well, however I'm on board with the "psychotic repeating of questions while brutually stabbing him" being more impactful. The problem is they basically took two great revenge kills from Arya (The Tickler & Raff) and morphed them into 1. It was a good scene, but it all goes back to why the hell did they have to kill the Tickler??? Just sucks that the best part of the TWOW Mercy sample chapter is now eliminated from the show. Oh well, still quite the scene.

I am ok with this version since it mirrors the TWOW Mercy chapter, which is almost Shakespearian in George's development.

The show had already framed Arya's actions here in Season 2, and I was guessing all along it would play out this way since Raff was never a character.

I too do puzzle why they made the Tickler the torturer at Harrenhal , it could have been almost any new character they wanted.

In fact don't know why they even had Ian Whyte as The Mountain, season 2, biggest casting bungle they ever made.

I can see why they had to condense and modify Arya's stay at Harrenhal, that worked out fine, but the Tickler thing is odd.

O well it's a nit anyway.

[Colonel Green]

I thought the scene was done pretty damn well, however I'm on board with the "psychotic repeating of questions while brutually stabbing him" being more impactful. The problem is they basically took two great revenge kills from Arya (The Tickler & Raff) and morphed them into 1. It was a good scene, but it all goes back to why the hell did they have to kill the Tickler??? Just sucks that the best part of the TWOW Mercy sample chapter is now eliminated from the show. Oh well, still quite the scene.

Really, the problem isn't even that they killed the Tickler, it's that they combined Polliver (the guy who stole the sword) and Raff (the guy who killed Lommy). If they hadn't done that Arya could have done the same to Polliver as she did to the Tickler.

[Quentyn Kartell]

Show Arya avenging Lommy never gave me the chills that book Arya killing the Tickler or

Raff the sweetling

gave me, it feel kind of bland compared to those scenes.

I agree. The fact that they left out arya's prior killings seems to put too much character development into one scene.

[boojam]

I agree. The fact that they left out arya's prior killings seems to put too much character development into one scene.

Well... she 'killed' the fat boy at KL, and the killing of the Frey soldier was a substitute for the Harrell guard.

So by the tavern she has killed two as in the books.

In the show she killed two at the tavern, so we are even with killings in the book, even tho it's different people.

[Koi No Yokan]

Rory talking to Rolling Stone, said "Some of the lines they've given The Hound this year are incredible".

On the tavern scene:

“When I had to drink in that tavern scene, that’s David and Dan going “Give him another beer! Fill it right up to the top! Can you down another?” I was really fit at the time, wasn’t drinking, working out, there was definitely no sugar in my body — and suddenly I had six or seven liters of flat ginger beer that day. I had to go off into the woods to make myself sick. They had this new helper, I didn’t know who he was, and they told him ‘We’ve lost the Hound! We’ve lost the Hound!’ I’m on my hands and knees with my fingers down my throat trying to get this bloody soda out of me. He came up like, ‘Are you — ‘ [growls] ‘FUCK OFF!’ [Laughs] He ran away into the woods. [high-pitched, scared helper voice] ‘He told me to fuck off!’”

Delving a bit more into who The Hound is this year:

My audition was a scene of the Hound describing to Sansa how he got his burned face. It happens in the book, and they were gonna film it in the first episode: "Look at me — this is the reason I am the way I am." Then they decided not to do it. David pushed Dan into my trailer, and I was like, "Why are you pushing the wee guy in? You got something to say?" "We decided we want to bring you in gentler. We don't want you to talk about yourself at the moment. But don't worry!" I go "You're bruising my ego. You're not...firing me?" "No, no, we're not firing you! We're just gonna bring you in slower." It's taken four fucking years, but here we go. [Laughs] That's what's happening. I'm gonna open up this time. The Hound's gonna speak freely.

On Maisie:

She's just such a good actress! Really clever, really bright, she knows everything…she's a real help to me, because I'm a bit goofy and a bit daft. I forget where I am in the story and she knows my lines, my story, where we are, what's going on, the reason we're there. I get in trouble for pulling faces, and she keeps me in check. The great thing is, I don't think she realizes how good she is yet — so don't tell her.

It's a great interview, for those interested:

http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/game-of-thrones-q-a-rory-mccann-on-the-hound-and-season-four-20140407

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Anyone else thinks the singer of the NW in Braavos gets the Mercy treatment?

[JagLover]

Well... she 'killed' the fat boy at KL, and the killing of the Frey soldier was a substitute for the Harrell guard.

So by the tavern she has killed two as in the books.

In the show she killed two at the tavern, so we are even with killings in the book, even tho it's different people.

The killing of the Frey soldier was not a substitute for the Harenhall guard. The key point about that killing was that this was not a killing in self defence, or of an enemy and someone she was angry with, but the killing of someone who just happened to be in her way.

That is the key step they haven't taken with the Arya character yet on the show.

[boojam]

The killing of the Frey soldier was not a substitute for the Harenhall guard. The key point about that killing was that this was not a killing in self defence, or of an enemy and someone she was angry with, but the killing of someone who just happened to be in her way.

That is the key step they haven't taken with the Arya character yet on the show.

The Frey's a friends of the Starks?

The way Frey jerk was going on about the humiliation of her dead brother , he didn't just happen to be in her way but was more deserving.

The guard at Harrenhal was just doing his job.

The other people she had Jaqen kill , probably deserve it but are just mean to her, poor ol Weese was kind of a nobody.

In a way one might say in the books by this time she has killed four and had 2 + I-don't-know-how-many during Weasel Soup ordered killed ... she was responsible for a number of lives.

In the show Jaqen seemed to have killed only two guards,so that was four at Harrenhal.

[JagLover]

The Frey's a friends of the Starks?

The way Frey jerk was going on about the humiliation of her dead brother , he didn't just happen to be in her way but was more deserving.

The guard at Harrenhal was just doing his job.

The other people she had Jaqen kill , probably deserve it but are just mean to her, poor ol Weese was kind of a nobody.

In a way one might say in the books by this time she has killed four and had 2 + I-don't-know-how-many during Weasel Soup ordered killed ... she was responsible for a number of lives.

In the show Jaqen seemed to have killed only two guards,so that was four at Harrenhal.

I think you have misunderstood, I was referring to the book killing of the Harenhall guard.