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[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion

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I always felt that the Tyrells didn't want sansa caught so they could continue the original plan and marry her to Willas.. I feel they wanted either Tyrion or Oberyn to get the blame 100% so they could get her reign in the North just my thoughts... she was just an easy way to smuggle the strangler in



Im kind of sad at how blunt theyre making the show the vagueness and open ended events are what makes me so drawn to the books... in the preview for next week it looks like QoT and Marg are talking about how they did it when in the books it was LFs suggestion (and the end of that chapter just blew my mind the first time I read it when he introduces the "game")



The Shae deal is just boring and you can see that theyre just setting her up to testify at the trial.. Bran seems so emo right now to me just brooding while he eats his bread but the weirwood tree prophecy was pretty cool



it was a great idea that they have Reek shaving Ramsay while he learns of Robbs death but I would atleast like to have seen 1 finger gone or something... at least he was limping while he ran



that scene between Tywin/Cersei and Oberyn/Elaria was so rushed and fast! I could hardly understand what they were saying... im betting they were short on time but I feel like that scene could have been awesome if they slowed it down and let Oberyn be more subtle and cool about it



Stannis loves Shereen which im glad they emphasized there and Mel is crazy but Celese is just bat shit crazy.. between her and Lysa idk who is crazier (kind of sad she doesn't have a mustache or prominent ears)


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Olenna either broght the poison to the wedding on her person or she had it in Margery's necklace. The Sansa theory would have been far to risky and difficult. Margery had to be in on it.

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I always felt that the Tyrells didn't want sansa caught so they could continue the original plan and marry her to Willas.. I feel they wanted either Tyrion or Oberyn to get the blame 100% so they could get her reign in the North

The Lannisters wouldn't have let her go that easy, they'd have married her to Daven or somebody even though he's probably tied down to the Freys by now.

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That makes no sense whatsoever, and you would have to completely ignore the actual events. If Tywin wanted rid of Joffrey, there were a million was to do it that didn't needlessly squander strategic assets like Sansa (whose loss makes a ruin of Tywin's Northern dynastic strategy).

Never mind, you know, that he started a war over the dwarf son he despises....but he's going to murder his grandson, LOL, who can quite easily dope up on milk of the poppy for the forseeable future if the sharp lesson doesn't bring him in line. But, people have all kinds of whacked out theories.

Tyrion clearly wasn't willing to rape sansa as Tywin wanted or produce an heir any time soon.It is perfectly plausible that Tywin found out about the promise Tyrion made to Sansa. He may of intended Jaime to marry Sansa after Tyrion was killed. I don't think milk of the poppy would of solved the Joffrey problem he was the king you can't circumvent his Authority all of the time.

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Olenna either broght the poison to the wedding on her person or she had it in Margery's necklace. The Sansa theory would have been far to risky and difficult. Margery had to be in on it.

So it was a production oversight that a stone was missing.

Even though we know a stone was also gone from the hairnet in the books.

Plus the Ghost of High Heart described a young girl. with fangs dripping poison in her hair..Sansa's hairnet from the books.

A hairnet that was replaced in the show with a necklace...a necklace that is now missing a stone.

Edited by NightStark

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Please, let's stop all the nonsensical fantasies about Olenna somehow getting the poison from Sansa's necklace. The close up only shows her hand on a stone; it does not show the stone removed from Sansa's necklace. It never was. Removal would have required much more force than could have been done in a subtle way. I think the whole Sansa necklace gambit is a teaser put in by either or both of GRRM and D&D. I think Dontos imploring Sansa to get away to save her life is part of this con. How did Dontos know at this point that Joff was even dead. Anybody who thinks the whole "Here, Sansa, please take my mother's necklace" crap is part of some conspiracy with Olenna is out of their minds. She'd never trust somebody like Dontos as a co-conspirator.

In the book it's more explicit.

George gives us quick circumstantial evidence when Olenna fools with Sansa's hair net, and later when Sansa noticed that one of the stones is gone, and we know George has already told us what Strangler crystals look like.

Now I must admit reading that part of the book things get sort of murky after that as to who has done what.

My deduction was that Olenna slipped the crystal to Marg ... the show seems to do it differently.

Edited by boojam

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From what I gathered, no. Bronn mentioned he was followed, but he/they believed it was just Varys since he was in on the plan as well. But since we know Tywin ordered Shae to be taken after Cersei pointed her out to him, I think it's safe to say that Bronn believed Shae was safely away before Cersei's people nabbed her.

I hope you're right. I would be seriously bummed if D&D have Bronn betray Tyrion like that.

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I'm sorry. But I have to ask.

Why couldn't Olenna simply just carry the poison herself?

I thought the same. The only thing i can think of is that it would be way too risky for the QoT to attempt to acquire poison in Kings Landing. Remember Littlefinger has a role in orchestrating this .

Besides, there is definitely an attempt by the show to imply that this scheme happened in this way. The first Dontos scene of season has the sole purpose of giving Sansa the necklace (no mention of him helping her escape as in the books). Olenna clearly handles the necklace, and appears to be palming something. She is the closest to the cup right before Joff gets the fatal sip, and they make point to show her face right as Tyrion grabs the cup to hand it to Joff. Joff drops dead, and Dontos suddenly appears to wisk Sansa away as if it was a moment he knew was coming.

The casual watcher (non-reader) likely won't catch it, some one who pays close attention should, and most readers should as well. Its too subtle to be a red herring, yet the connections are there. I think it is what it is.

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Mixed feelings on the episode tbf. No doubt it was a great episode, my problems are more on book deviations.



First though on what I liked:


1) Oberyns scene with Tywin and Cersei, you could feel the tension even before he brought up the rape and murder, and his emphasis on Cersei no longer being Queen Regent was great. I hope we get to see much more of him in the next few episodes while we still can.


2) The first signs showing of crazy Cersei - really setting her up for what she will become.


3) The Ramsay/Roose/Reek scene was well done, it was sad watching Theon's reaction to the news of Robb, and Ramsay and Locke seem like new best friends.


4) The death scene was well done, albeit Cersei's reaction was underwhelming.



What I wasn't fond of:


1) The Stannis scene. Rather than be burning people who committed treason, all they've done is refuse to give up their gods, which is exactly what Davos is also doing, with no punishment.I do however like the care he appears to have for Shireen.


2) This was the perfect chance to reveal Joffrey sent the assassin. Looks like they're just going to leave that plot thread hanging.



There was another negative but its slipped my mind.


Also, Bran's vision, Snow on the throne anyone? Although it probably is less symbolic and more real


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Why on earth would they be singing "The Rains of Castamere" at a wedding?



Anybody who arranged that must have done it in respect of its playing at The Red Wedding".



Who would have had clout enough to get it into the Purple Wedding's song list? Joff was clearly not happy about it being played.



Did Tywin do it? Is he the co-conspirator with Olenna? Makes sense. Why does he need Joff? He's got Tommen. He's aware that Joff is off his nut and will bring big trouble. It's really a simple decision. He's got a ready-made scapegoat in Tyrion as well. Tywin's really pissed at Jaime as well. He's got to know that Joff is the product of his son and daughter's incest. This is the perfect outcome for him



I think I'm going to have to look at the QoT/Twin pre-wedding chat a few more times.


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Using Sansa to "deliver" the poison instead of just bringin it by yourself, to me makes just sense if Sansa can be used as a safety net (which is why a hairnet is much better than a necklace :D ) afterwards to put the blame on.


Maybe it was not even the main plan, but the "in case anyone does notice", she's the one with the poison on her head.


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There was something I found rather perplexing. Tywin's facial expressions. Was he smirking at some points? I can't recall if the books ever mentioned Tywin's expressions throughout the whole farce of the dwarven jousting (and Joffrey's tantrums) but I imagined that he would have disapproved of it (though not openly).


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Why on earth would they be singing "The Rains of Castamere" at a wedding?

It's a song which demonstrates the power and glory of the Lannisters..it's a Lannister wedding so of course they'll play it.

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Why on earth would they be singing "The Rains of Castamere" at a wedding?

Because it's THE Lannister song, letting everyone know, how badass they are. I remember from the books its played until no one can hear it anymore. Olenna has a sentence like: I hope they play Rains of Castamere again, I have not heard it in an hour, I almost forgot how it goes. :D

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The singing of "The Rains of Castamere" at the wedding is some sort of clue to who dunnit, don't you think? It's an understatement to say the song isn't "wedding appropriate".



What do you think it implies as far as identifying the poisoner?



It's the kind of touch Olenna would think of. It's also Tywin's marker, no?


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Using Sansa to "deliver" the poison instead of just bringin it by yourself, to me makes just sense if Sansa can be used as a safety net (which is why a hairnet is much better than a necklace :D ) afterwards to put the blame on.

Maybe it was not even the main plan, but the "in case anyone does notice", she's the one with the poison on her head.

The Tyrells don't care if she gets caught after he's dead.

They know that Tyrion will probably be accused and everyone will look at Sansa as co-conspirator because of what has just happened to her family, close inspection will then turn up the hairnet/necklace with a missing stone...boom..both implicated in it.

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The singing of "The Rains of Castamere" at the wedding is some sort of clue to who dunnit, don't you think? It's an understatement to say the song isn't "wedding appropriate".

What do you think it implies as far as identifying the poisoner?

It's the kind of touch Olenna would think of. It's also Tywin's marker, no?

Why would it be a clue to who did it?

It's a Lannister song being played at a Lannister wedding. It's Tywin's greatest hour afterall.

Edited by NightStark

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He may of intended Jaime to marry Sansa after Tyrion was killed.

No, because if you think Tywin was in on the plan, he would have had to have been in on Littlefinger smuggling Sansa out of King's Landing (or else, known where she was afterward). Moreover, Sansa would have been accused alongside Tyrion had she stayed.

I always felt that the Tyrells didn't want sansa caught so they could continue the original plan and marry her to Willas.

Sansa would have been executed for treason alongside Tyrion.

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My bet is that Cersei’s agents followed Bronn and extracted Shae from the ship or captured Shae when she left the ship. I don’t think Varys or Bronn had anything to do with Shae’s capture.



Varys stuck his neck out twice to get Shae out of Kings Landing. I think he feels guilty about Ros and wants to save Shae. This is a big departure from book Varys, but that seems to be what the show is saying . Varys probably also has been trying to prevent a Lannister meltdown for his murky political purposes. Anyway, if Varys was going to hand Shae over to Tywin, he wouldn’t have given Tyrion the warning that morning.



Bronn is capable of betraying Tyrion, but I think he would have taken his betrayal payout and left town rather than returning to the wedding. He didn’t know that Tyrion would end up a prisoner that night. He had to assume that Tyrion would find out very soon about the betrayal – when Tywin hanged Shae – and that an enraged Tyrion would be a nasty enemy.


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