A Balanced Review of Show Stannis [Book Spoilers]

[Darkbringer]

When he burns some men (for cannibalism) during the snowbound trek to Winterfell,

there is a clear implication that he is doing it as a sacrifice, and hoping that R'hllor will change his fortunes.

This is ridiculous, plainly ridiculous. When his followers ask him for a sacrifice, he says "pray harder'; he is actively planning to change his own fortunes at this point. You have no reason to read into it that way except you don't like him. Stannis never, ever, ever burnt anyone for simply being an unbeliever. Not once. Selyse burnt a couple while he was fighting on the Blackwater, but that's it. if you have spent any time at all on a Stannis thread you have heard this said already, and you need to go check your book facts. Yes, we are upset, the Stan-Stans. because all of Stannis' funny and noble/honourable lines have been cut, and we have been given, basically, a cartoon character instead of a very complex character. I am holding out for the end of this season, but I expect, based on current form, any transition to sympathy for his character will either be tarred somehow, or similarly lacking in nuance.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Oh I get that totally. Extrapolating that to everyone is something that should be done with caution.

For me the scene was pointless. It added nothing. Unsullied I have spoken to have said similar but did say "He just did it to appease the Red Woman and his wife" and are focused more on the "I suffer them just the same" line and Davos's "I am sure they are much happier" line. I feel that they are are setting Stannis up for a redemption at the end of the season but they are creating problems for themselves.

I agree with that. I asked the same question upthread.

There was absolutely no point of that stupid scene.

It would have worked much better if Stannis had said,

" He/They tried to sell MY DAUGHTER to the abomination in King's landing".

Two birds, one stone.

[Ty K]

Can one of the complainers please explain to me why it is more acceptable to burn someone at the stake for negotiating a treaty with your enemies without permission than it is to burn a man at the stake for publicly disobeying your orders to take down your religious symbols? Both are acts of treason, both punishable by death, except one is the way it happened in your gospel and the other isn't. Its all a matter of perception.

What if I put it this way: Stannis burnt a man alive even though his intentions were to end the war and save all of their lives and even though the deal he sought with the Lannisters was more than fair given their meager position. As opposed to burning a man alive for openly disobeying royal orders and insulting the religion whose god has intervened on their side multiple times and is the only reason they still have a chance of winning the war. See what I mean about perception?

Outraged StanStan: "But it subtly changes the motivation of the character, oh noes!" Oh well, get over it. This has happened to a lot of characters and is inevitable. I think its pretty clear Stannis begrudgingly went through that whole process and the beginning of his break-away from Melisandre to being more independent is already being set up, so relax. If he is still unsympathetic at the end of this season, then you will have a reason to be upset. No one really liked Stannis all that much at this point in the book series anyways.

[Konradsmith]

Stan the Man, I won't be able to convince you about the burning or anything, I know that but didn't you at least enjoy some of Stan's lines? Whether it was D and D or GrrM who wrote the dinner scene there were some classic Stannis dead pans like "Meat's off" and "Of course I remember", as well as some great resentful/uncomfortable looks. And look on the bright side, next week Stan will say his line about not being a page in someone else's history book.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Stan the Man, I won't be able to convince you about the burning or anything, I know that but didn't you at least enjoy some of Stan's lines? Whether it was D and D or GrrM who wrote the dinner scene there were some classic Stannis dead pans like "Meat's off" and "Of course I remember", as well as some great resentful/uncomfortable looks. And look on the bright side, next week Stan will say his line about not being a page in someone else's history book.

Yeah i agree. Next week looks promising. Davos x Stannis FTW!

[Konradsmith]

^Apparently the Golden Company gets name-dropped. So that'll be cool.

A new thought: Mayhaps Mel, if she's even present in ep. 3, will cite a correlation between the beach-burning and Joff croaking.

[eyeheartsansa]

He's shown that he would burn someone for not taking their religious idols down.

In the book he is still in charge at Dragonstone, so even if he doesn't personally follow R'llor he is still allowing others to be burned. It is not as though Mel has pulled the wool over his eyes. He made his choices.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

^Apparently the Golden Company gets name-dropped. So that'll be cool.

Yay! I hope their interaction is very elaborate and long, since he is skipping to episode 4 and 5 and in 6 he is already setting sail for

Braavos

[Konradsmith]

^I doubt it will be TOO long, "Breaker of Chains" will be pretty packed, I think. But hopefully we get a solid scene and some lovely bromance.

[Ran]

Can one of the complainers please explain to me why it is more acceptable to burn someone at the stake for negotiating a treaty with your enemies without permission than it is to burn a man at the stake for publicly disobeying your orders to take down your religious symbols? Both are acts of treason, both punishable by death, except one is the way it happened in your gospel and the other isn't. Its all a matter of perception.

It's because Stannis would never make life-or-death decisions on the basis of people's religious beliefs conforming to his own...

Oh, wait. He makes the wildlings convert if they want to get south of the Wall. Never mind.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

^I doubt it will be TOO long, "Breaker of Chains" will be pretty packed, I think. But hopefully we get a solid scene and some lovely bromance.

Well whatever it is. I hope the material is solid and not downright fanfiction from that episode.

[Konradsmith]

I could jump on you for saying fanfiction, Stan, because obviously they have the rights and whatnot. But clearly you know that that's a loaded phrase and used it anyways, so there isn't really a point.

Just remember that we don't know definitively that D and D wrote those scenes. It is likely, but right now Carice van Houten twitter picture of the premiere script cover is our only piece of evidence. You have to accept the possibility that GrrM drafted that scene that you think of so venomously. (If people REALLY want to know they could ask Bryan Cogman on twitter or ask GrrM via comment on Notablog. Both sometimes answer such things.)

EDIT: Ah, Ran has made a welcome return! I love it! I don't know if there is counterargument/justification for that letting the wildlings south of the Wall via conversion business...

[Mithras]

I don't think it matters whether he burns people from treason or blasphemy. The simple fact is that he burns them alive. Only Aerys was known to commit this atrocity. Book Stannis is the last thing I would call a hero.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Only Aerys was known to commit this atrocity.

Pssst: and Carly See.

[Ty K]

It's because Stannis would never make life-or-death decisions on the basis of people's religious beliefs conforming to his own...

Oh, wait. He makes the wildlings convert if they want to get south of the Wall. Never mind.

Good point! Not to mention that the bigger problem for Stannis was more likely that he had given the Florent (I think they used Axel not Alester in the show but can't remember...) a direct order and he disobeyed him in a really public manner by leaving those statues of the Seven up. He almost put Davos to death after the Gendry/Edric incident and that was done in secret. This was left up for all his men to see; Stannis would not allow someone to undermine his authority like that. Its no different than what Jon did to Janos Slynt, which as you probably remember Stannis gave a nod of approval to.

[Sunglass]

I don't think it matters whether he burns people from treason or blasphemy. The simple fact is that he burns them alive. Only Aerys was known to commit this atrocity. Book Stannis is the last thing I would call a hero.

Tyrion has burned thousands alive ...

and Daenery let her Dragoons burn people alive ...

Edit: Paper Waver is using a Victarion Greyjoy picture on his profile ... :rofl:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/user/78802-paper-waver/

He is burning people alive for R'hllor in ADwD :bang:

[averde]

I am legitimately afraid that the battle at the wall at the end of this season will play out with Jon killing the "bad" Wildlings the Thenns, then trying to get to Mance and sign a peace treaty and all of sudden Stannis shows up and massacres a bunch of "good" Wildlings, maybe even Ygritte.

[averde]

In most parts of the world the word infidel does not equate with Osama. The only place I have seen such a link made is on these boards by Stannis fans who would have decried any word used.

I would say Americans make up a pretty large basis of the GoT tv fans. Go out and ask them what they think of when they hear the word infidel, most Americans picture the classic image of afghan mujahideen fighters and terrorists along with specifically Osama bin Laden as the face of the Taliban. I'm not saying that it's right or anything like that but it is a reality.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

I am legitimately afraid that the battle at the wall at the end of this season will play out with Jon killing the "bad" Wildlings the Thenns, then trying to get to Mance and sign a peace treaty and all of sudden Stannis shows up and massacres a bunch of "good" Wildlings, maybe even Ygritte.

I personally also think that.

In one of the features released, Jon is shown fighting the Magnar of Thenn, so most certainly he is killing the bad wildlings while the good wildlings will be left for Stannis to kill, just as Mance and Jon reach to a conclusion to stabilize the realm.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

I would say Americans make up a pretty large basis of the GoT tv fans. Go out and ask them what they think of when they hear the word infidel, most Americans picture the classic image of afghan mujahideen fighters and terrorists along with specifically Osama bin Laden as the face of the Taliban. I'm not saying that it's right or anything like that but it is a reality.

I recognise that point and have acknowledged as much above.