A Balanced Review of Show Stannis [Book Spoilers]

[Spotted Cat]

I actually liked show stannis (hate the guy in the books). that whole scene in the blackwater battle was quite awesome. but now he is a fanatic of the lord of light. this stannis would have no qualms about burning edric storm . am i right?
therefore i hate show stannis more than book stannis. we could always say that book guy is just posing, that he is still just etc. this fellow has 0 redeeming qualities.

[Mithras]

From Mel's POV:

Melisandre had spent the night in her chair by the fire, as she often did. With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use.

[aFeastForDragons]

Nobody here forgets the Battle of Blackwater and how Stannis was portrayed as the "Mannis" character a lot of people fictionalise here. Its the way that character was supposed to come back after Davos's paper shield. I always got the idea that when he hears Davos out he comes to his senses and goes into Mannis mode gathering his amy, burning Florent and setting sail for the wall as fast as possible.

It does really bug me that its always Stannis mentioned. Is nobody as annoyed as I am that Davos's greatest moment was taken from him and made look like it was Mel's idea? Daniel or David has said Davos is one of their favourite characters yet they butchered his paper shield scene. It would be like Qyburn fending off the bear so Jaime could then escape or The Hound finishing off Polliver.

Actually (and this may have been brought up in the few days I haven't posted), I realized the burning of Florent is really fucking stupider than I first thought.

How can take down "idols" to lands he can't even reach (and quite possibly doesn't even hold)?

Same way an unconscious Theon travelled hundreds of miles back to the Dreadfort without waking up, didn't even know who the Boltons were despite travelling & conferring with Roose Bolton at Robb's war council and somehow grew back his little finger. The show is full of inconsistencies. They could really do with someone double checking things. Just little things that annoy us readers.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

I actually liked show stannis (hate the guy in the books). that whole scene in the blackwater battle was quite awesome. but now he is a fanatic of the lord of light. this stannis would have no qualms about burning edric storm . am i right?

therefore i hate show stannis more than book stannis. we could always say that book guy is just posing, that he is still just etc. this fellow has 0 redeeming qualities.

Really zero redeeming qualities?

Not sure why he has such a large fanbase if he had no redeeming qualities.

Edit: I don't believe in whatever baazigar believes. ;)

[aFeastForDragons]

Really zero redeeming qualities?

Not sure why he has such a large fanbase if he had no redeeming qualities.

When I hear people say someone has zero redeeming qualities it makes me wonder if they even understand the books and their complicated characters.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Same way an unconscious Theon travelled hundreds of miles back to the Dreadfort without waking up, didn't even know who the Boltons were despite travelling & conferring with Roose Bolton at Robb's war council and somehow grew back his little finger. The show is full of inconsistencies. They could really do with someone double checking things. Just little things that annoy us readers.

That is a bit of a reach. There is no indication whatsoever that the scene we see where his blindfold is removed was actually the first time he was conscious. The argument is the same as claiming that because we didn't see Jaime and Brienne travel from Harrenhall to KL that it is some kind of inconsistency. Also, Theon crying "Cut it off!" does not actually mean the finger was cut off. Book Theon had some fingers removed and some others were flayed but he still had them. Attempting to condemn the show on those points lacks rationality.

[Konradsmith]

^Indeed. If Theon didn't know where he was and hadn't been told yet, he would still ask desperately. I think the implication WAS that he lost his little finger but I didn't expect too much consistency on that front so I'm fine with a glimpse of it here and there.

[Lady Meera Reed]

Nobody here forgets the Battle of Blackwater and how Stannis was portrayed as the "Mannis" character a lot of people fictionalise here. Its the way that character was supposed to come back after Davos's paper shield. I always got the idea that when he hears Davos out he comes to his senses and goes into Mannis mode gathering his amy, burning Florent and setting sail for the wall as fast as possible.

It does really bug me that its always Stannis mentioned. Is nobody as annoyed as I am that Davos's greatest moment was taken from him and made look like it was Mel's idea? Daniel or David has said Davos is one of their favourite characters yet they butchered his paper shield scene. It would be like Qyburn fending off the bear so Jaime could then escape or The Hound finishing off Polliver.

-snip-

That's one of my favorite moment. Davos ready to die, but managing to appeal to Stannis' sense of duty with nothing but a paper shield was a poignant scene (made even greater by the "cart before the horse" speech later).. I was hoping they'd include bits of that convo in the show because it was really moving "I know that a king protects his people or he is no king at all." I wonder why D&D felt the need to change it. :dunno:

I dont expect they'll use any of the great lines by Stannis/Davos/Mel anymore, especially not after this episode.

[Spotted Cat]

Really zero redeeming qualities?

Not sure why he has such a large fanbase if he had no redeeming qualities.

Edit: I don't believe in whatever baazigar believes. ;)

im sorry what is a baazigar?

When I hear people say someone has zero redeeming qualities it makes me wonder if they even understand the books and their complicated characters.

book stannis is an hypocrite. he is just using the religious fervour of queens men to achieve his own end. You need to be intelligent to do that. show stannis is just a fanatic. do you really think he will resist Mels idea to burn little children ?

[zaphodbrx]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I had some hopes for show!Stannis but after the episode 'Mhysa' , I lost all hope. Let's face it, show!Stannis is either a villain and/or a puppet to Melisandre. That's how it is and deal with it. So I don't particularly mind that show!Stannis burns some infidels because I no longer have any expectations of him to begin with. Book!Stannis will always be there for us and it doesn't matter what the show does. ( I have internalized the same for Littlefinger as well . )

[Denam_Pavel]

I assumed Axel has statues to the Seven set up like they had at Dragonstone, something that would be highly visible.

I don't see why we should assume such.

The infidel line is getting thrown way out of proportion. What term would people suggest they have used besides infidel, given its the appropriate word for what he is saying? It doesn't even make a substantial difference in his reasoning. Axel was ordered to take up the new religion and he refused. Stannis has the fiery heart of the Lord of Light in his sigil, he is going to make it the official religion when/if he conquers Westeros. Disobeying Stannis on this makes Axel both an infidel and a traitor.

All I'm saying is, he is being executed for the former, not the latter. And if he's executed for both it's his infidelity that Stannis vocally cares about.

Ned died because Joffrey is an idiot, and that was only after he had been captured and lost all leverage. There was no guarantee burning Axel was going to make the winds pick up either unless you think, gasp, that Book Stannis's faith actually compelled him to kill a man.

Yes, I do think that, among other reasons. And Shireen was to be sent to King's Landing and stay there and betroth Tommen. What leverage would she have exactly, after Stannis has surrendered and the Florent bannermen have returned to the Reach and Saan sailed away and all that?

You can rationalize it both ways all day long, which was my point about perceptions, Stannis burnt a man alive at the stake and I don't think it paints him in any worse of a light to have done it for disobeying one type of order than another.

Well I see a difference between surrendering to the Lannisters on behalf of Stannis and all of Dragonstone and not personally converting to R'hllor.

None of that has to do with motivation. I meant that Stannis begrudgingly accepting the Lord of Light as opposed to being completely agnostic isn't all that massive of a change.

I don't see Stannis as completely agnotic at this point in the books. But in the books he still values bannermen that are loyal to him in every ascept except their faith and even people like Saan and Davos.

The broad strokes of his uncertainty and pragmatic intentions are still there, they are just playing it a different way. Even then, the things you are mentioning aren't even big changes. They had to stretch Stannis' arc out for pacing reasons. Just because he hasn't went to the Wall yet doesn't mean he isn't going to. We only saw one scene with them and it didn't touch upon what their future plans were in it. That should be next episode after hearing about Joffrey's death.

He'll probably still go but it probably won't be because he cares about what happens on the Wall. As D&D say in "inside the episode", Stannis is still 100% obsessed with the Iron Throne and his birthright and nothing else even though he's already heard about the White Walkers and all that.

[Spotted Cat]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I had some hopes for show!Stannis but after the episode 'Mhysa' , I lost all hope. Let's face it, show!Stannis is either a villain and/or a puppet to Melisandre. That's how it is and deal with it. So I don't particularly mind that show!Stannis burns some infidels because I no longer have any expectations of him to begin with. Book!Stannis will always be there for us and it doesn't matter what the show does. ( I have internalized the same for Littlefinger as well . )

:bowdown:

[Beric175]

I am not sure Martin wants people to cheer for Stannis, honestly. You may invent excuses for why either this scene was not written by Martin in the episode (although how you'd know that for sure is beyond me) but officially this is his episode and we have seen him write Stannis in the past episodes of the show (Blackwater, in which he's fine with the death of "thousands"). I never felt comfortable with that dictator worship with book-Stannis. We know he never intended Stannis to be as popular as he was and frankly he's just a whiny prick to me in the books, who cares naught for the NW rules to not engage politically.

[The Drunkard]

We know he never intended Stannis to be as popular as he was and frankly he's just a whiny prick to me in the books, who cares naught for the NW rules to not engage politically.

Mind if you share that quote?

[Señor de la Tormenta]

I am not sure Martin wants people to cheer for Stannis, honestly. You may invent excuses for why either this scene was not written by Martin in the episode (although how you'd know that for sure is beyond me) but officially this is his episode and we have seen him write Stannis in the past episodes of the show (Blackwater, in which he's fine with the death of "thousands"). I never felt comfortable with that dictator worship with book-Stannis. We know he never intended Stannis to be as popular as he was and frankly he's just a whiny prick to me in the books, who cares naught for the NW rules to not engage politically.

dude he is making him fight Boltons and Freys, the bad boys of this story that everybody hates since Book 3. Are you sure he doesnt want Stannis to be popular?

Even more, he is making the main character of the SOIAF to develop a relationship where he respects the guy, cares for him, helps, and wants him to win.

At the same time Daenerys fights cartoonish enemies that we cant even remember their names.

[jons nissa]

Stannis sees a vision with his own eyes, of the Fist of the First Men, and is certain that what Mel is saying about a battle for the Dawn, against a cold that never ends, is true. From that vision he agrees to use the leeches that are already filled with Edric's blood because he was sick and was leeched. The three leeches ending up seeming to perform as required prove that Mel's use of King's Blood indeed has the power she claimed to have.

again, all stannis has seen proof of is that melisandre can kill.

“—is one boy! He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm.” His hand swept across the

Painted Table. “How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all,

she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies . . . a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone . . . she

speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?”

if you want to focus on his own words then let's look at them. he clearly has no idea what she's talking about. he's going on her word alone. why wouldn't he? he's being made to be the greatest hero of all time. who wouldn't respond to that?

He can't take the chance that she is right and he refuses because to try and prove that it works 100% would potentially risk an innocent. There is simply too much on the line here for playing safe.

i totally agree and believe i've said as much in my earlier posts. stannis is desperate and melisandre is promising a huge miracle that will seat him on the throne. words and promises, leeches and deaths.

Stannis rounded on him in a cold fury. "I know his name. Spare me your reproaches. I like this no more than you do, but my duty is to the realm. My duty . . . " He turned back to Melisandre. "You swear there is no other way? Swear it on your life, for I promise, you shall die by inches if you lie."

he is reluctant but he is ready to do it. and that's what i've said. my earlier quote says i'm not clear how so many believe a bit of doubt or even tons and tons of it (which was not the case!) washes away all the ramifications of making a decision like burning someone alive and you've suggested a reread. clearly you didn't understand my confusion. it says that his reluctance doesn't mean he is cleared and absolved of the choice to kill for gain. stannis is indeed facing the classic 1 life versus the world question and how one answers tells what type of person they are. stannis is ready to kill the boy because it will bring him a miracle that will save the realm and give him the throne:

"You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you." Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby throbbing. "Give me this boy," she whispered, "and I will give you your kingdom."

do you think he believes he's the prince that was promised? he doesn't understand any of this just as he doesn't understand how the leeches killed the kings or how renly and pembrose were killed by a shadow. all he knows is melisandre is claiming to be able to do these things. he is willing to follow her and give her what she wants and doesn't seem to fussed about the fact that he really doesn't understand any of it.

and if we look closer at the vision you say stannis saw, we realize that it is at melisandre's bidding that he looks into the flames and sees what he sees. hmmmmm. if we look at the scene closely we realize it is melisandre's interpretation of this vision that puts the seed of the great battle that needs to be fought vs the squabble for the throne. it made me realize why d&d make it seem like it is at melisandre's suggestion that they go to the wall because it is. she is showing stannis this vision and then interpreting it for him:

"It is the great battle His Grace is speaking of," said a woman's voice, rich with the accents of the east. Melisandre stood at the door in her red silks and shimmering satins, holding a covered silver dish in her hands. "These little wars are no more than a scuffle of children before what is to come. The one whose name may not be spoken is marshaling his power, Davos Seaworth, a power fell and evil and strong beyond measure. Soon comes the cold, and the night that never ends." She placed the silver dish on the Painted Table. "Unless true men find the courage to fight it. Men whose hearts are fire."

Stannis stared at the silver dish. "She has shown it to me, Lord Davos. In the flames."

"You saw it, sire?" It was not like Stannis Baratheon to lie about such a thing.

"With mine own eyes. After the battle, when I was lost to despair, the Lady Melisandre bid me gaze into the hearthfire. The chimney was drawing strongly, and bits of ash were rising from the fire. I stared at them, feeling half a fool, but she bid me look deeper, and . . . the ashes were white, rising in the updraft, yet all at once it seemed as if they were falling. Snow, I thought. Then the sparks in the air seemed to circle, to become a ring of torches, and I was looking through the fire down on some high hill in a forest. The cinders had become men in black behind the torches, and there were shapes moving through the snow. For all the heat of the fire, I felt a cold so terrible I shivered, and when I did the sight was gone, the fire but a fire once again. But what I saw was real, I'd stake my kingdom on it."

"And have," said Melisandre.

The conviction in the king's voice frightened Davos to the core. "A hill in a forest . . . shapes in the snow . . . I don't . . . "

"It means that the battle is begun," said Melisandre. "The sand is running through the glass more quickly now, and man's hour on earth is almost done. We must act boldly, or all hope is lost. Westeros must unite beneath her one true king, the prince that was promised, Lord of Dragonstone and chosen of R'hllor."

this really doesn't paint stannis as the one making the decisions about anything. many consider davos as the morality and conscious of stannis and he is frightened about what he's hearing. the fact is, stannis is seeing this vision when he is at his lowest and broken of spirit at her bidding. sounds like the best time for manipulation. and of course, as readers, we now know that melisandre's visions are a mixed bag however, stannis doesn't. my point is, at this stage of the story she's only delivered magical deaths and has explained to stannis that there is a greater battle that must be fought in the snow and cold by the savior of r'hollor which is him. she is definitely the one calling the shots at this point. but that changes when they get to the wall. she's still up to her old tricks (burning mance) but stannis is finally removed from her influence, which is very, very great.

it seems d&d are honing in on this scene from the books to explain the relationship between stannis and melisandre on screen and it definitely explains the scene at the end of season 2 when they are staring in the flames and in season 3 when she is the one to confirm what davos says about going to the wall.

after he knows what Sam wrote in the letter about the Others coming, Stannis is still sitting on his hands on Dragonstone,

yeah, i agree, i don't know why they're sitting around dragonstone at their leisure instead of packing up. no clue what d&d are up to with that. very strange.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

yeah, i agree, i don't know why they're sitting around dragonstone at their leisure instead of packing up. no clue what d&d are up to with that. very strange.

I can only guess it is a an actor's contractual screen-time issue. They can 'get away' with having them appear in every second episode and that is why they are inserting the Braavos scenes - so a Team Dragonstone appearance in Eps 2,4,6,8 and 10, with 6 and 8 in Braavos perhaps?

It still would have made much more sense for the Ep 2 scene to be about them trying to deal with the issues they are facing due to logistics instead of what they did.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

We know he never intended Stannis to be as popular as he was and frankly he's just a whiny prick to me in the books, who cares naught for the NW rules to not engage politically.

Pure Bullshit, unless quote provided.

[E-Ro]

You won't find a quote because yes, that is pure bullshit. The equivalent of pulling an argument out of your ass.

The author has called stannis a righteous man, indicating yes, he does not consider him a villain. In fact, he has even said melisandre is the most misunderstood character. Make if that what you will.

Furthermore, if the author did not intend for us to like stannis he would not have given Jon and stannis a sort of friendship, he would not have given stannis any of the great lines that he has, nor would he have pitted stannis against the biggest villains in the series(whites, others, boltons, freys)

[aFeastForDragons]

Can we please have an intelligent discussion without the trollish and absurd posts.

Thinking Stannis is a villain who's never done a single good act is about as stupid as people claiming Eddard Stark is still alive.

I'll never understand this forum and how people pull these odd ideas from there head as fact.