[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa VI: Purple reign

[Colonel Green]

If she asked about her family coming to her wedding while still trying to come to terms with the prospect of marrying a Lannister, or a dwarf, or really just anyone who didn't fit her preconceived notion of knight in shining armor, I can certainly not say it's automatically out of character for either Sansa or any other previously-sheltered young girl. Book or show.

Um, she didn't. She said that when she thought she was marrying Loras.

[Annara Snow]

Sandor is a special, delicate case. None of the remaining actors who play "adults" is in a somewhat romantic relationship with a minor. I don't get you. You say it's creepy to imagine a 27 year old with a 12 year old (which I agree), but you're actually arguing the bigger age gap the better?

If the actor playing Sandor would have been 31 in season 1, he would still have been older than the actors who play Robb, Jon, Dany, Loras etc. And even if he looked closer in age to them, so what? it's not like it matters to the storyline, unlike his age difference with Sansa.

And book Sandor is only a few years older than book Tyrion so making him look a bit younger wouldn't be that much of a deal either. The other characters and their age difference with Sandor are completely irrelevant. The only characters whose age difference with him IS relevant are Sansa and Arya.

You've just provided the reasons why it doesn't matter at all if the actor is 30 or 40. It's "creepy" either way (but less creepy than it would be if they cast according to the book ages), so how does that change anything?

I'm not arguing that "the bigger age difference, the better", I'm arguing that it makes little difference and that it's absurd to argue that the fact that the actor was over 40 was some sort of a "spoiler" that the characters won't ever get romantically involved.

Did anyone really want Sansa to get together with Sandor when she was 12? Those who think this will eventually happen think it will happen when she grows up. We don't know how old she will be the next time they meet, but she'll certainly be two years older than that in the show, and played by an actress who's not a minor anymore. Nobody gives a shit about age difference once when both partners are adults.

[joachim]

Thinking her family was coming to her wedding, in particular, is something she could only have thought if she had completely forgotten there was a war going on.

If I were looking at this from her perspective, it would seem to me that the war is between the Starks and the Lannisters, not the Starks and the Tyrells, so...

[Newstar]

Tyrion is supposed to be a few years younger than Jaime and Cersei, but Peter Dinklage is older than both his on-screen 'siblings'.

Thanks to 4x01 and 2x09, we can pinpoint TV Tyrion's age. Cersei tells Sansa that she was "just four" years old when she prayed just after her mother had died, and as of 4x01 Jaime is 40 (and Cersei as well, obviously), putting Tyrion at 36 as of Season 4. It's a good deal younger than Peter Dinklage's RL age (45 and counting), and a good deal older than Book Tyrion's age, but neither of those things is terribly surprising since most of the older generation is aged up considerably.

I have no idea how old TV Hound is supposed to be, though. Book Hound is three or four years older than Book Tyrion, according to the Wiki, so I guess that would put TV Hound around 39 or 40 or so if they were sticking with that age difference.

Nobody gives a shit about age difference once when both partners are adults.

Pro tip: if you have to use language often trotted out to defend the Doug Hutchisons of the world to argue in favour of a ship, you are very clearly Doing It Wrong.

ETA: Just thought of another instant in which Sansa didn't think things through - despite planning to get away from KL for a while, she was surprised that they were going to the Vale, because she had thought she was going to Winterfell. Winterfell was a half-burnt rubble at that point, and the Boltons were ruling the North, and she must have been aware of that.

Well, Book Sansa's not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[Annara Snow]

Pro tip: if you have to use language often trotted out to defend the Doug Hutchisons of the world to argue in favour of a ship, you are very clearly Doing It Wrong.

I'm not sure either what my posts in this thread have to do with "defending a ship" and even less sure what any of this has to do with Doug Hutchison. I thought the problem was that he married a 16-year old, which is underage in most countries today and below the age of consent in many US states, right? I don't remember people ranting and denouncing Michael Douglas or Harrison Ford, there were jokes but that was it.

I'm also not sure what your point is. Are you actually supporting Rhaenys' argument that SanSan would look more likely on the show if Sansa was the same age as she is - or even younger (as she is in the book) if Sandor was played by a 30-year old actor? I don't get your stance on this. Are you trying to defend 30-year olds to hook up with teenage girls while ranting about the skeeviness of 40-year olds who do the same and trying to establish some sort of a reverse age of consent (it's OK for dudes to hook up with underage girls if they are not older than...25? 30? 35? What is the cutoff age)? Are you saying that it's "creepy" for a 29-year old to hook up with a 55-year old, but not for a 29-year old to hook up with a 13-year old? Please elaborate. :huh:

I guess I could say now:

'"Pro tip: if you're defending Jerry Lee Lewises of this world in order to put down a ship, you're Doing It Wrong".

It would make about as much sense. :dunno:

[Newstar]

I'm not sure either what my posts in this thread have to do with "defending a ship" and even less sure what any of this has to do with Doug Hutchison. I thought the problem was that he married a 16-year old, which is underage in most countries today and below the age of consent in many US states, right? I don't remember people ranting and denouncing Michael Douglas or Harrison Ford, there were jokes but that was it.

People didn't stop denouncing Doug Hutchison once Courtney Stodden aged up, as you recall, nor Woody Allen once Soon-Yi Previn aged up. The younger partner aging up does not magically negate the relationship's creepy origins or the prior interactions between the adult and the other partner as a minor, something you seemed to suggest with your creepy and hilariously inaccurate "Nobody gives a shit about age difference once both partners are adults." It would be one thing if adult Sandor met twentysomething adult Sansa and struck up a relationship with her with no prior interaction, let alone creepy or sexualized interactions with her when he was an adult and she was a minor. That would be questionable (Johnny Depp's getting flack over the Amber Heard age difference), maybe, but not inherently creepy. That is of course not the case with either Book Sandor or with TV Sandor. There's a big distinction there, one you seem to be ignoring in your haste to argue that a relationship between adult Sandor and adult Sansa once she ages up would not bother anyone.

If you can't argue a point without spouting creepy and wrongheaded shit, maybe you shouldn't be arguing it. Just a thought.

[Rhaenys Reborn]

Ok, let's make things straight:

Age differences between the characters or alterations from the book ages do not matter as long as that doesn't mess with the characters' relationships. They actually do not matter in any case but SanSan, like I said before, as it is the only "relationship" where a kid (both a character and an actress) is involved with a proper adult (and not an adult passing for a teen). That is why I don't get why you guys keep bringing up Tyrion, Cersei, Ned and a whole bunch of other characters who do not matter in this discussion.

For me there is a huge difference between a 16 year gap and a 27 year gap, ESPECIALLY given that both Sansa and Sophie are still teenagers. 16 years is a lot, but 27 is disturbing.

But whatever. Age is not the only issue I have with TV Sandor anyway.

[Annara Snow]

People didn't stop denouncing Doug Hutchison once Courtney Stodden aged up, as you recall, nor Woody Allen once Soon-Yi Previn aged up. The younger partner aging up does not magically negate the relationship's creepy origins or the prior interactions between the adult and the other partner as a minor, something you seemed to suggest with your creepy and hilariously inaccurate "Nobody gives a shit about age difference once both partners are adults." It would be one thing if adult Sandor met twentysomething adult Sansa and struck up a relationship with her with no prior interaction, let alone creepy or sexualized interactions with her when he was an adult and she was a minor. That would be questionable (Johnny Depp's getting flack over the Amber Heard age difference), maybe, but not inherently creepy. That is of course not the case with either Book Sandor or with TV Sandor. There's a big distinction there, one you seem to be ignoring in your haste to argue that a relationship between adult Sandor and adult Sansa once she ages up would not bother anyone.

If you can't argue a point without spouting creepy and wrongheaded shit, maybe you shouldn't be arguing it. Just a thought.

Um, that's not what was being argued at all. The topic was not "is SanSan creepy" (if you want my honest opinion, yeah, it is - but so is 90% of stuff in ASOAIF, and about 70% of it is way creepier), it was "is SanSan creepier/less acceptable if Sandor is played by a 40-year old actor rather than a 30-year old" or "is show SanSan less likely to happen than book SanSan because Sandor is played by a 40-year old instead of a 30-year old" and then it evolved into a discussion of whether "age difference" expressed in years is more important than the age of the younger partner.

If you can't argue a point without making an effort to read through and understand what the fuck is being discussed and that you're arguing against "points" that the other person hasn't made, maybe you shouldn't be arguing it. Because that way, you're not contributing to the discussion, you're just making one more of your annoying, creepy, wrongheaded and shitty posts. Just a thought,

[Annara Snow]

Ok, let's make things straight:

Age differences between the characters or alterations from the book ages do not matter as long as that doesn't mess with the characters' relationships. They actually do not matter in any case but SanSan, like I said before, as it is the only "relationship" where a kid (both a character and an actress) is involved with a proper adult (and not an adult passing for a teen). That is why I don't get why you guys keep bringing up Tyrion, Cersei, Ned and a whole bunch of other characters who do not matter in this discussion.

For me there is a huge difference between a 16 year gap and a 27 year gap, ESPECIALLY given that both Sansa and Sophie are still teenagers. 16 years is a lot, but 27 is disturbing.

But whatever. Age is not the only issue I have with TV Sandor anyway.

Since Sansa and Sophie are still teenagers, it is disturbing either way (and even more so in the book, because she's even younger) - or would be, if they were actually 'involved'.

Thing is, they are not and never were actually "involved". Which you probably agree on, since you put the "relationship" in quotation marks.

[Rhaenys Reborn]

Um, that's not what was being argued at all. The topic was not "is SanSan creepy" (if you want my honest opinion, yeah, it is - but so is 90% of stuff in ASOAIF), it was "is SanSan creepier/less acceptable if Sandor is played by a 30-year old actor rather than a 40-year old" or "is show SanSan less likely to happen than book SanSan because Sandor is played by a 40-year old instead of a 30-year old" and then it evolved into a discussion of whether "age difference" expressed in years is more important than the age of the younger partner.

You mean "less creepy/more acceptable" ;) but other than that, that's a perfect sum up of the discussion.

However please keep in mind I do not claim the age of the younger partner is not important - I'm just saying, keeping Sansa as she is (around 14 at this point) SanSan would be much more acceptable if Sandor was played by a 30 year old dude. Or 30-something. Or if he at least looked thirtish.

[Rhaenys Reborn]

Since Sansa and Sophie are still teenagers, it is disturbing either way (and even more so in the book, because she's even younger) - or would be, if they were actually 'involved'.

Thing is, they are not and never were actually "involved". Which you probably agree on, since you put the "relationship" in quotation marks.

Yeah, sorry about that. I used "involved" for the lack of a better word. I meant they have a semi-romantic storyline that will potentially lead to being romatically involved in the future. And then the 27 year old difference will kill me.

[Annara Snow]

You mean "less creepy/more acceptable" ;) but other than that, that's a perfect sum up of the discussion.

However please keep in mind I do not claim the age of the younger partner is not important - I'm just saying, keeping Sansa as she is (around 14 at this point) SanSan would be much more acceptable if Sandor was played by a 30 year old dude. Or 30-something. Or if he at least looked thirtish.

Well, maybe you're right up to a point, what with pop culture telling us that it's perfectly OK when teenage girls hook up/have sex/marry and have babies with 200-year old vampires who look 25/30-year old... ;)

Then again, the show seemed to be trying to go out of its way to make people think that Sansa and Tyrion "had a chance before the Red Wedding" and some entertainment magazine even ran a poll "who would be better for Sansa, Tyrion or Loras" :rolleyes: and that was several orders of magnitude creepier, what with her being a captive forced into marriage by her enemies.

And this is also a series where two arguably main heroes (according to many people at least) found their true loves with the people who initially raped them for all intents and purposes - and the show made it even worse in Dany's case. So I don't really know if arguing that they avoid creepy and uncomfortable makes sense after that... :uhoh:

[Newstar]

but so is 90% of stuff in ASOAIF, and about 70% of it is way creepier

Aaaand there it is. :D Charming.

it was "is SanSan creepier/less acceptable if Sandor is played by a 40-year old actor rather than a 30-year old" or "is show SanSan less likely to happen than book SanSan because Sandor is played by a 40-year old instead of a 30-year old" and then it evolved into a discussion of whether "age difference" expressed in years is more important than the age of the younger partner.

Well, sure, but your basis for arguing that show SanSan is no less likely to happen for the use of a 40-something actor as opposed to a younger actor was to invoke a creepy, inaccurate argument about how age differences are not perceived as a big deal once the minor partner ages up, something demonstrably untrue for RL relationships analogous to SanSan where the adult engaged in creepy or sexualized interactions with the other partner when that partner was a minor and where the relationship's creepiness wasn't seen to be magically erased once the minor partner became an adult.

And if you can't argue your point without saying creepy, erroneous bullshit, which "Nobody gives a shit about age differences once both partners are adults," in the context of a relationship like SanSan which involved creepy, sexualized interactions between an adult and a minor, most certainly is, then you probably shouldn't be arguing it. What's next, a fevered treatise on how everyone should just leave Woody Allen alone?

Because that way, you're not contributing to the discussion, you're just making one more of your annoying, creepy, wrongheaded and shitty posts.

Aw, I love you too, Annara Snow! Kisses!

[juanml82]

You mean "less creepy/more acceptable" ;) but other than that, that's a perfect sum up of the discussion.

However please keep in mind I do not claim the age of the younger partner is not important - I'm just saying, keeping Sansa as she is (around 14 at this point) SanSan would be much more acceptable if Sandor was played by a 30 year old dude. Or 30-something. Or if he at least looked thirtish.

If TV!Sansa looked 14, I don't think it would be much more acceptable. The thing is, TV!Sansa pretty much looks of age, so I don't think any romantic relationships she may develop would visually look disturbing. A bit kinky perhaps, but it wouldn't look like a Lolita or that Natalie Portman movie in which she plays a 12 years old assassin and has some sort of relationship with Jean Reno.

Now, the storyline can make any such relationships undesirables from the viewer's viewpoint and the character age might have to be brought forward and emphasized again, because she clearly looks older than the reported age of her character.

[Gregor Blows in the Wind]

Um, she didn't. She said that when she thought she was marrying Loras.

Well there you go. Didn't even remember which possible wedding it was. Couldn't have been too traumatizing a deviation for me.

Anyhoodles: my point stands regardless of potential husband. Sorry it bothers you. I thought it was spot on for Sansa's character. She kinda WAS the butt of the jokes to the highborn of the Capitol.

[Annara Snow]

Aaaand there it is. :D Charming.

Well, sure, but your basis for arguing that show SanSan is no less likely to happen for the use of a 40-something actor as opposed to a younger actor was to invoke a creepy, inaccurate argument about how age differences are not perceived as a big deal once the minor partner ages up, something demonstrably untrue for RL relationships analogous to SanSan where the adult engaged in creepy or sexualized interactions with the other partner when that partner was a minor and where the relationship's creepiness wasn't seen to be magically erased once the minor partner became an adult.

And if you can't argue your point without saying creepy, erroneous bullshit, which "Nobody gives a shit about age differences once both partners are adults," in the context of a relationship like SanSan which involved creepy, sexualized interactions between an adult and a minor, most certainly is, then you probably shouldn't be arguing it. What's next, a fevered treatise on how everyone should just leave Woody Allen alone?

Aw, I love you too, Annara Snow! Kisses!

I am disappointed. This post contains a perfectly satisfying number of Straw Men, gross misrepresentations of another's position, ridiculously off base comparisons, taking things out of context, inflammatory language, the usual self righteous bullshit, and attempts to stir a fight, but just one passive aggressive smiley? JUST ONE?

So disappointed now. :( I was expecting at least one after each paragraph. This is unacceptable. Where's the ignore button?

[Colonel Green]

She kinda WAS the butt of the jokes to the highborn of the Capitol.

Which is not the same thing as being a joke within the narrative, which was treating her with zero respect in those moments.

[Newstar]

Which is not the same thing as being a joke within the narrative, which was treating her with zero respect in those moments.

I've gone back and forth on this, but I think TV Sansa's naive belief that her family would be permitted to attend the wedding is on about the same level of stupidity as Book Sansa 1) thinking that Olenna meant to marry her to Loras, a Kingsguard, 2) needing to be told that the Tyrells only want her for her claim, 3) not understanding why Willas Tyrell would want Winterfell when he already had Highgarden, 4) taking everything Book Margaery tells her about Willas' virtues at face value, and 5) ignoring Dontos' warning in favour of fantasies of puppies and barges. Book Sansa is pretty egregiously stupid in those parts of ASOS as well, so I can't really object to TV Sansa being equally stupid, if under different circumstances and involving a different suitor, in the show. Six of one, half dozen of the other, really.

Sansa's stupidity is a bit of a joke within the books' narrative, as well, in between all the characters she interacts with who mock her stupidity or allude to it, and goodness, there are a lot of them. You might not have TV Shae smiling to herself about Sansa gushing about Loras' love of brocade, or TV Tyrion trying not to laugh at Sansa getting "shit" and "shift" confused, but you do have Book Olenna alluding to Sansa's reputation for stupidity ("...some say that you are as big a fool as Butterbumps here"), Sansa thinking "Maybe I truly am as stupid as Cersei Lannister says," and similar.

Going back a page:

It was in response to the silly, continuing use of the word "agency" in this thread.

"Agency" is a pretty common buzzword when it comes to discussing Sansa's arc, as many Sansa fans believe that Sansa's journey is primarily or even entirely about her having more control over her life and exercising agency over her life choices: from powerless to powerful, pawn to player, etc. etc. It sounds delightfully grand and high-minded, but it's usually just an argument that gets trotted out to argue that a SanSan endgame or at least hookup is inevitable. The whole obsession with agency strikes me as a bit odd, frankly, especially when it comes to those fans who get so tied up in the idea of Sansa's agency that they discuss her as if she's a sentient being or even a beloved surrogate daughter and not as a fictional character dancing on GRRM's strings (and the less said about them, the better), but yeah, it's an often seen concept in these discussions.

I am disappointed.

I live for no other aim than pleasing you, Annara Snow, dear heart. Accept my humblest apologies: :D

...For real, I think we can leave that particular point there, since you've embarrassed yourself enough already and I have no wish to create further opportunities for you to dig yourself any deeper. Let's move on, shall we?

[Black Words]

Peter Dinklage and Rory McCann were both born in 1960. Rory is turning 45 the next week (on the 24th), Peter in June. (Interesting fact - Aidan Gillen has the same birthday as Rory, but he's a year older and will be turning 46 next week.)

People born in 1960 would not be turning 45 this year.

[Annara Snow]

People born in 1960 would not be turning 45 this year.

Oh, really? Thank you for your math knowledge. It's obvious that it was a typo and that I meant 1969. But I guess it's more fun to act like you don't get it's a typo just to be annoying.

But at least you're trying to be annoying in a short post.