[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa VI: Purple reign

[Colonel Green]

Well, yeah, but Tywin really had no use for Tyrion. Killing Sansa, on the other hand, could have easily re-ignited the war with the North. Tywin's nothing if not practical, after all.

There is no way Tywin would have allowed Sansa to live if he thought she had committed regicide.

[channamasala]

Totally agree. The Tyrells are taking an enormous risk, and it makes much less sense if we don't see Margaery under threat.

Actually, I felt that at the wedding, she had some control - she is very good at basic graces like turning situations around, distracting people, making people feel good (she probably would have made a pretty good queen in fact, conniving and scheming aside seeing as everyone does that anyway) but she was clearly worried about losing it as Joffrey acted out. She knew when to stay silent and wait for an opening to distract people, true, but she sure looked worried in some of those scenes.

So generally I agree, and Cersei's fears are quite founded, but I do feel like even Margaery worried about losing control of Joffrey at the wedding itself.

[channamasala]

There is no way Tywin would have allowed Sansa to live if he thought she had committed regicide.

I agree with this.

Also, re-ignited the war...with whom? There are still a lot of Stark loyalists but without banners to rally around, I don't see that as a major threat. Had Sansa stayed in King's Landing she'd either be dead or in very real danger of it.

[channamasala]

I assumed it was because she disliked Cersei, somewhat like the Red Viper's takedown of the "former queen regent." Plus, Margaery going to be Joffrey's queen, meaning, in Sansa's mind, it's going to be pretty unhappy for Margaery regardless of her title.

I agree with this. I don't think Sansa's eyeroll was an attack on Margaery but a very smart acknowledgement of how things are with kings and queens in her world. If anything, I felt this gave her back a tiny bit of agency.

To go back to the above, I'm sorry, but I did feel that the Dontos storyline in the book got repetitive. I just wasn't feeling it - whatever GRRM was trying to do with the "deconstruction of the romantic fantasy trope" worked in other parts of her story but not that particular thread. At least for me. I just didn't really miss it being gone from the TV show, although after Book 1 I was one of the few people who liked Sansa, having sensed (correctly, I think) that her character was going to end up on a sympathetic arc the way Jaime's did.

The Sansa storyline I wish they'd shown more of was the Sansa/Margaery one. Going in depth about what it means to be a noblewoman with few real friends, then making what she thinks is a real friend about her age, and then quickly losing that "friend" (although I don't think Sansa ever came to dislike Margaery) was a storyline I found fascinating and not repetitive or dull the way I found the "Dontos will save me!" one. They shouldn't have reduced it to a few quick scenes.

But then I still feel like Turner's acting - her face, her short comments, her little actions - give her a quiet agency that I felt was, if anything, missing from the books.

I'm not saying y'all are "wrong" that they took away her agency when they changed the Dontos storyline, just that I see it very differently.

Of all the characters, I'm the most excited to see what happens in future books and seasons with Sansa and Arya (I like Arya and the Hound as a combo but was getting sick of them roving around Westeros - it's time for a change). That - and this is unrelated to this thread, I'm just thinking "out loud" - I may be the only person who is in fact fascinated with Essos and I would not only like to see Danaerys go to Asshai, I'm curious about Yi Ti! I don't think we'll ever get to see Sothoryos (that's what it's called, right?) though. But I'm a long-term expat who has spent years traveling around Asia - of course I'd be interested in seeing that Parallel-Universe Asia.

[juanml82]

At the same time Olenna takes the stone from Sansa's necklace, listen to what she's saying. She's condemning Lannister actions at the Red Wedding, implying Joffery since he claims credit for winning the war, and subtly calling him a monster for killing a man at a wedding. Notice she also implies herself with this line, albeit a more graceful and wise monster. And as Tyrion says: Monsters are Dangerous.

But the conversation about the RW also reveals Olenna's motive for involving Sansa at all: Justice. Olenna likes Sansa and thinks that what was done to her family was a crime. She also knows Sansa is not in any position to seek any redress of this. So, planning on killing Joffery anyway, she arranges to have the instrument of Joffery's death be borne by the last of the Stark family. That Sansa knew nothing was simply done to protect her, but still... The Starks send their regarrrrrrds.

Olenna put on a show of "this is how you wield power." Joffery is dead. Margery is the queen, or at least has a claim the Lannisters can't ignore. The Starks got some justice. Dontos isn't the type the Lannisters/Joffery would be monitoring, and he and Sansa are entering Witness Protection. No one suspects the Tyrells at all despite the fact that she did it in front of ALL the Lannisters, the Kingsguard and all the Lords of the Realm.

Well Played Lady Olenna

I didn't see it that way. I saw it as Olenna trying to earn her trust so she goes to Highgarden, they kill Tyrion if he still lives and they marry her for her claim as they've wanted to do all along.

Too bad Olenna was culprit though. The first time I've watched I seriously wondered if the showrunners were leaving option of Sansa executing Joffrey as it befits to a Stark of Winterfell (and maybe that crackpot theory someone posted in the books forums about Sansa being the killer in the books as well had a hint of true). What a pity...

[Good Guy Garlan]

I agree with this.

Also, re-ignited the war...with whom? There are still a lot of Stark loyalists but without banners to rally around, I don't see that as a major threat. Had Sansa stayed in King's Landing she'd either be dead or in very real danger of it.

With the North, of course. The only reason they kind of settled down (or at least pretended to) was because of Ramsey's so-called marriage with a "Stark" girl. And even then several houses remained hostile: the Glovers, the Mormonts, some of the Umbers, the mountain clans, the Manderlys, at least in secret, etc. As soon as Theon got Jeyne out, the others started to make things difficult for Roose.

I do agree that it would be a tough call for Tywin, though. I'd like to believe his pragmatism to hold the North and to keep the Tyrells happy would win in the end.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Sansa fans, just one tiny little question. That weird eye-roll during the wedding ("We have a new queen"), why was that about? Didn't she always get along with Margaery in the show as well?

For such a small moment I still think it served a few things, different from what others have said, and I feel Martin added it for a reason. It's Tyrion's comment I feel that shows what Sansa's eye rolling thing was for, as he says "better her than you" and maybe it's his comment that shows the reason.

At first glance I think it shows Sansa's last little bit of jealously over not being THE queen, as she was raised to be, and spent her whole life wanting to be, to be loved by all, to have her prince. So it's a nice character reminder moment, showing the last remnants of she's still just a normal girl, with a normal reaction, when faced with an unattainable dream... albeit undesirable at this point.

But the more important part for me is the reminder that Sansa was supposed to be THE queen and have it all, so when she naturally experiences this last pang of envy who is the one to remind her to let the remnant go since it is clearly "better her than you"? Sansa's vile little dwarf husband, that she will never want touching her, so it begs the question "is it better me than him"? Only because Tyrion does not appear sadistic... and that's about it, not to mention her loss of the pomp of position.

I feel this simple, quick, eye rolling moment serves to remind us dreamily of what a wondrous life Sansa could have had, what she thought it could be - to remind us of realistically what a horrific life Sansa would have had, and the horrors she has already faced - to remind us of the pathetic life Sansa has been forced to live, and does she have to accept this to be 'as good as it gets'?

It hopefully should set up nicely what's to come with the changes in her character, and the changes for her character, once she is free to let it all go and free from all of that baggage.

I know that's a lot to pack into a simple moment in a show but I cannot help that that the books influence me, and you will have to forgive me if I did not convey my thoughts properly as clear expression when writing eludes me.

[Good Guy Garlan]

For such a small moment I still think it served a few things, different from what others have said, and I feel Martin added it for a reason. It's Tyrion's comment I feel that shows what Sansa's eye rolling thing was for, as he says "better her than you" and maybe it's his comment that shows the reason.

At first glance I think it shows Sansa's last little bit of jealously over not being THE queen, as she was raised to be, and spent her whole life wanting to be, to be loved by all, to have her prince. So it's a nice character reminder moment, showing the last remnants of she's still just a normal girl, with a normal reaction, when faced with an unattainable dream... albeit undesirable at this point.

But the more important part for me is the reminder that Sansa was supposed to be THE queen and have it all, so when she naturally experiences this last pang of envy who is the one to remind her to let the remnant go since it is clearly "better her than you"? Sansa's vile little dwarf husband, that she will never want touching her, so it begs the question "is it better me than him"? Only because Tyrion does not appear sadistic... and that's about it, not to mention her loss of the pomp of position.

I feel this simple, quick, eye rolling moment serves to remind us dreamily of what a wondrous life Sansa could have had, what she thought it could be - to remind us of realistically what a horrific life Sansa would have had, and the horrors she has already faced - to remind us of the pathetic life Sansa has been forced to live, and does she have to accept this to be 'as good as it gets'?

It hopefully should set up nicely what's to come with the changes in her character, and the changes for her character, once she is free to let it all go and free from all of that baggage.

I know that's a lot to pack into a simple moment in a show but I cannot help that that the books influence me, and you will have to forgive me if I did not convey my thoughts properly as clear expression when writing eludes me.

That makes sense (and you conveyed your thoughts excellently :) ) and you're right, it's a nice little moment, especially because it contrasts what season 1 Sansa thought being queen meant and what season 4 Sansa (and Tyrion) really knows it entails.

My original interpretation was that Sansa was just resigned to her fate and thought everything would remain the same for her even with a new queen, but then I remembered their little bonding moment last season when Margaery was telling Sansa all the good things about Tyrion and found the eye-roll a bit weird, but now that you mention it I can see a bit of a sarcastic "hope you're happy Margaery, congrats"

[joachim]

I think people are missing the point when they talk about Sansa and agency. In the book, she wants to escape and go home. In the show, forget about escape, she doesn't want to go on living.

[Colonel Green]

I think people are missing the point when they talk about Sansa and agency. In the book, she wants to escape and go home. In the show, forget about escape, she doesn't want to go on living.

How is that missing the point? They changed the story to remove her plan of escape, hence she's got nothing to look forward to. That was a deliberate choice, which has removed her agency.

[lil_z]

This is a very detailed look at stills from the episode that goes over the squence of events. That make the most sense in my eyes.

I looked through the previous posts to be sure this wasn't posted yet, but I am human if that's wrong

http://imgur.com/gallery/2DtPH

Up until seeing that I was mystified about how the Qot managed to make it from the necklace to the kings cup without notice. But it all fits particularlly the conversations with Margaery and Qot in season 3, starting with Sansa's admission, professing Joffery's cruelty. It certainly makes sense that the wedding feast was sort of an open display of the disgust held by the Tyrells for Joffery. And this being Game of Thrones, it makes sense on that front as well, Tyrells commit regicide to achieve greater power and remove a cruel tyrannt in the making. It was a master stroke of luck I believe that rather than complete mystery surrounding Joffery's death, that the blame fell squarly on Tyrion and Sansa. I highly doubt that Tyrion and Sansa where the actually targets of suspicion...easy to blame a nameless assasign, or hapless servant.

[Annara Snow]

I bet it will continue from a distance, whoever wrote the viewer's guide, while making sure to take the name Sansa Stark from her, neglected to mention she was forcibly married, and felt that was a very important point to make the point that Tyrion always treated her with the utmost respect. She doesn't even star in her own bio.

Ouch. Clearly not written by anyone who had read the book and her near rape at the hands of Tyrion then.

Well, since the viewer's guide is based on show canon and not book canon, that's hardly surprising, is it? :D

Um, no? Unless I've missed something, her marriage was forced in the show, too.

And I would hardly call not raping someone "treating with utmost respect".

Also, has it really been established in the show that she is called "Sansa Lannister" now? I thought that was just the stupid Viewer's Guide.

But Le Cygne, it is St Tyrion and he can do no wrong......

All of your reasons above are ample explanation of why he didn't treat her well. Yet the show has chosen to run with the bodice ripper trope of forced marriage to an enemy being really what you needed all along and forget your own decisions and dreams because they are clearly going to be stupid.

They've showed that the forced marriage to Tyrion is what she really needed all along?

[The Prince of Newcastle]

Ive not read the thread so don’t know what has been said, but what I really enjoyed about Sansa this episode was just how close to her book counterpart she was.

Just stoney faced silence. I like how in the book Tyrion says something about ‘If anything, her grief only made her more beautiful’ and in the show, maybe because ST is getting older, she is actually more beautiful than ever.

I felt like I could feel her inner monologue, even though the PW is Tyrions chapter. Great stuff from a Sansa POV.

I was a bit disappointed the Dontonator just turned up and said ‘Come with me if you want to live’ though. Still, better than nothing.

I cant remember in the book, did she help Tyrion pick up the cup? Small detail.

[Woman of War]

I agree with this. I don't think Sansa's eyeroll was an attack on Margaery but a very smart acknowledgement of how things are with kings and queens in her world. If anything, I felt this gave her back a tiny bit of agency.

To go back to the above, I'm sorry, but I did feel that the Dontos storyline in the book got repetitive. I just wasn't feeling it - whatever GRRM was trying to do with the "deconstruction of the romantic fantasy trope" worked in other parts of her story but not that particular thread. At least for me. I just didn't really miss it being gone from the TV show, although after Book 1 I was one of the few people who liked Sansa, having sensed (correctly, I think) that her character was going to end up on a sympathetic arc the way Jaime's did.

The Sansa storyline I wish they'd shown more of was the Sansa/Margaery one. Going in depth about what it means to be a noblewoman with few real friends, then making what she thinks is a real friend about her age, and then quickly losing that "friend" (although I don't think Sansa ever came to dislike Margaery) was a storyline I found fascinating and not repetitive or dull the way I found the "Dontos will save me!" one. They shouldn't have reduced it to a few quick scenes.

But then I still feel like Turner's acting - her face, her short comments, her little actions - give her a quiet agency that I felt was, if anything, missing from the books.

I'm not saying y'all are "wrong" that they took away her agency when they changed the Dontos storyline, just that I see it very differently.

Of all the characters, I'm the most excited to see what happens in future books and seasons with Sansa and Arya (I like Arya and the Hound as a combo but was getting sick of them roving around Westeros - it's time for a change). That - and this is unrelated to this thread, I'm just thinking "out loud" - I may be the only person who is in fact fascinated with Essos and I would not only like to see Danaerys go to Asshai, I'm curious about Yi Ti! I don't think we'll ever get to see Sothoryos (that's what it's called, right?) though. But I'm a long-term expat who has spent years traveling around Asia - of course I'd be interested in seeing that Parallel-Universe Asia.

I very much agree with you (except that I was one of those who found little Sansa ridiculous and boring). But Sophie Turner has given the character of Sansa more agency with her subtle play than this somewhat childish Dontos-Florian story ever could. That part was ridiculous and not more than an illusion sold as "agency", to fool little Sansa, while in the show Sansa has dignity and strength in dealing with her situation. She makes her viewpoint clear, towards Tyrion and even in extreme danger and distress at Joffrey's provocations - one wrong move could get her and Tyrion killed - and yet she is very much there, the actress uses a minimum of actions to be very active and tense. While book Sansa at that point of the story seems to be caught in some foggy minor parallel universe.

And you are for sure not the only one who is fascinated by Essos. I as well would like to see more of Martin's world.

[1234567]

They've showed that the forced marriage to Tyrion is what she really needed all along?

Partly a joking response to Le Cygne, however there is a parallel to bodice ripper type novels. In deed rather than even slightly focus on how Tyrion broke his word or having her disinherited due to the marriage or the chances she'd be killed off, the TV show had Marg basically telling her she was a lucky girl and her and Tyrion chatting as friends after the wedding, when they could have focused on the fact that the was her captor.

One of the Unsullied over at TWOP (or new Previously TV) described him as the perfect husband. Which I think rather shows to what extent the whitewashing has gone.

[Eddard the Builder]

I don't fault the Tyrells for that. Arranged political marriage usually are mutually beneficial, and the Starks weren't being shafted. Sansa would get her fairytale marriage/life and be safe.

Remember she's a girl....no matter who she marries, the Stark line ends with her (so far as anyone knows). Winterfell WILL pass to another family. Period. No matter what.

So what family should get the Keys to the North? The Lannisters or the Tyrells?

Not true. Maege Mormont bears the name Mormont, and as do all five of her daughters. I am positive that the Northerners would let Sansa and her children bear the Stark name if it'd keep their liege lords name alive.

[ZeroGravity]

First post here, thought I'd share some interesting screenshots that might clue us into who poisoned our beloved King.

Notice the missing gemstone from the necklace that Sir Dontos gave her after Olena Tyrell tells Sansa that she's sorry for what happens to Robb.

http://imgur.com/Jzlxife

http://imgur.com/uah4QCM

Watch her hand when that scene plays, and it looks like she's taking something from the necklace. The angle makes it hard to tell definitely, but it's pretty suspect.

...i hope this is the right place to post this. XD

[elenhay]

Not true. Maege Mormont bears the name Mormont, and as do all five of her daughters. I am positive that the Northerners would let Sansa and her children bear the Stark name if it'd keep their liege lords name alive.

And Joffrey is described as 'Joffrey, of the houses Lannister and Baratheon' so Sansa's hypothetical Lannister/Stark child would be 'Name, of the houses Lannister and Stark'.

I'm not completed sure, but I always thought the house name wasn't neccessarily like a surname the way we think of one.

[Not a kneeler]

Kudos to Sophie Turner for bringing added dimension and likability to the character that book Sansa lacked. I kept wondering what people saw in her, and now Sophie has showed me that it was my perception that had failed. I do believe now that she can become a driving force behind real change and not just a pawn in the hands of stronger players. And (surprise) I like her!

[Colonel Green]

while in the show Sansa has dignity and strength in dealing with her situation. She makes her viewpoint clear, towards Tyrion and even in extreme danger and distress at Joffrey's provocations

Which the book Sansa also does. Book Sansa had far more dignity than TV Sansa, particular after a third season that spent half its time with scenes depicting her as an absolute fool.

While book Sansa at that point of the story seems to be caught in some foggy minor parallel universe.

If you're referring to the ceremony, that's because she's tense because she's planning to escape.

The idea that her picking up a cup is somehow more agency than her planning to escape is bizarre.