[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa VI: Purple reign

[Rhaenys Reborn]

I think book Sansa does have more agency than show Sansa, for the reasons already named. I always dreaded the fact they eliminated the Willas part of the book and replaced him with - of all people - Loras. It's just so unfair to her character. While book Sansa also fancied Loras and would have most likely jumped at the opportunity to marry him, still the way she taught herself to be excited about Willas did tell us a lot about her. And then her disappointment when she realized the Tyrells only wanted her for her rights. At that point she didn't want to be queen anymore, she didn't want a handsome gallant knight, she just wanted to be loved and to have a safe place she could call home. Show Sansa was deprived of this kind of emotions.

And then the way they made her marry Tyrion. Book Sansa had minutes to accept the situation and to realize Tyrion wasn't the worst husband she could've got. He offers her Lancel, but she chooses Tyrion. Again we are shown she's done with dreaming about pretty knights. Show Sansa has days to prepare for the wedding and that leads her to complain to Margaery that her husband to be is a dwarf.

Not kneeling - as bad as it made me feel for Tyrion - was an awesome Stark pride moment they probably took away from her to make her more likeable by the viewers. Her entire relationship with Tyrion is more sweet and understanding and a little too friendly. As much as it hurt seing them both so miserable in the books, it made more sense.

And then we have all the show viewers who can't understand why she didn't escape with the Hound since he asked so nicely. The entire SanSan storyline was made wrong from the beginning and I can see the show makers with severe headaches if GRRM decides to finally act on the romantic slash sexual tension between these characters. Show Sansa and show Sandor in a sexual scene? gah

[Gregor Blows in the Wind]

I'm slightly amused by the amount of posts using "agency" as a catchall for Sansa's possible decisions in King's Landing (but if some posters will adopt ideas and present them as their own, why not words?). I understand and sympathize with the frustrations that come with adapting any book to the screen, but let's not forget that she won't be going butch and shacking up with Ser Boros just because it tickles her fancy. She's a prisoner. And on television, for non-book followers, following her growing period from Ned's death through the Purple Wedding would have just come across as sappy. Instead we watch as she endures.

Not that the book-version of Sansa's story was sappy, nor that it couldn't be interesting. But character studies are tough to do when there's only so much screen time allowed. I thought that with the cuts made, they allowed Sophie Turner quite a lot of "agency" in which to sell this character's story. And she nailed it.

[Colonel Green]

I understand and sympathize with the frustrations that come with adapting any book to the screen, but let's not forget that she won't be going butch and shacking up with Ser Boros just because it tickles her fancy.

...what? What does that have to do with anything? We're discussing them cutting what she actually did in the books.

And on television, for non-book followers, following her growing period from Ned's death through the Purple Wedding would have just come across as sappy.

Why? There's nothing sappy about that story. It's full of drama. Her first visit to the Godswood would have been excellent TV.

Instead we watch as she endures.

Well, actually, we watched her be a joke on the show for a while, and sit around doing nothing (the thing that book readers often incorrectly accuse her of).

[Gregor Blows in the Wind]

what? What does that have to do with anything? We're discussing them cutting what she actually did in the books.

It was in response to the silly, continuing use of the word "agency" in this thread.

Why? There's nothing sappy about that story. It's full of drama. Her first visit to the Godswood would have been excellent TV.

I don't disagree. But I'm quite invested in her story. Weekly watchers of the show aren't necessarily too interested in being presented her emotional options. It takes time that only a book can utilize to get that across, and as I said, I think it could have really gotten bogged down. The show-runners gave her a chunk of time, and presented her as a naïve, good-hearted young lady in spite of each new horror. Which is right in line with what the book was. She was spoiled and a bit entitled. She suffered. She came out of it much better than most (arguably all).

Well, actually, we watched her be a joke on the show for a while, and sit around doing nothing (the thing that book readers often incorrectly accuse her of).

And I say you incorrectly accuse her of sitting around. I mean, yeah she doesn't pick a sword up and slay each of her tormentors, but "sitting around," in the context of her role? Nah. She was a joke in King's Landing, not the production team's office, and the portrayal is close IMO. Book Sansa is allowed room to grow through her interior monologue, which Show Sansa does not have the luxury of. So we only get to see her reactions, her kindnesses, and the person she was just as she was forced to run.

[jons nissa]

And then we have all the show viewers who can't understand why she didn't escape with the Hound since he asked so nicely. The entire SanSan storyline was made wrong from the beginning and I can see the show makers with severe headaches if GRRM decides to finally act on the romantic slash sexual tension between these characters. Show Sansa and show Sandor in a sexual scene? gah

the show won't have any headaches about how they've portrayed sansan. this plotline will either not amount to anything "romantic slash sexual" as you put it or it will become that after a few years, when sansa is older. either way, its a win-win for the show. sansa is 14 on the show. if sansa stays hidden during the long winter, and it's possible that she will, she'll be an adult in the eyes of modern viewers. and if not, and she meets sandor and they become best buddies, still no problem.

there's a joke that every time sean bean is cast, it's an automatic spoiler that the character he's playing will die, since it happens so often. i think the moment they cast rory, it looked a lot like a spoiler of what wouldn't be happening between sansa and sandor, but that's just one opinion. it all remains to be seen.

[Annara Snow]

I think book Sansa does have more agency than show Sansa, for the reasons already named. I always dreaded the fact they eliminated the Willas part of the book and replaced him with - of all people - Loras. It's just so unfair to her character. While book Sansa also fancied Loras and would have most likely jumped at the opportunity to marry him, still the way she taught herself to be excited about Willas did tell us a lot about her. And then her disappointment when she realized the Tyrells only wanted her for her rights. At that point she didn't want to be queen anymore, she didn't want a handsome gallant knight, she just wanted to be loved and to have a safe place she could call home. Show Sansa was deprived of this kind of emotions.

And then the way they made her marry Tyrion. Book Sansa had minutes to accept the situation and to realize Tyrion wasn't the worst husband she could've got. He offers her Lancel, but she chooses Tyrion. Again we are shown she's done with dreaming about pretty knights. Show Sansa has days to prepare for the wedding and that leads her to complain to Margaery that her husband to be is a dwarf.

Not kneeling - as bad as it made me feel for Tyrion - was an awesome Stark pride moment they probably took away from her to make her more likeable by the viewers. Her entire relationship with Tyrion is more sweet and understanding and a little too friendly. As much as it hurt seing them both so miserable in the books, it made more sense.

And then we have all the show viewers who can't understand why she didn't escape with the Hound since he asked so nicely. The entire SanSan storyline was made wrong from the beginning and I can see the show makers with severe headaches if GRRM decides to finally act on the romantic slash sexual tension between these characters. Show Sansa and show Sandor in a sexual scene? gah

Why not?

the show won't have any headaches about how they've portrayed sansan. this plotline will either not amount to anything "romantic slash sexual" as you put it or it will become that after a few years, when sansa is older. either way, its a win-win for the show. sansa is 14 on the show. if sansa stays hidden during the long winter, and it's possible that she will, she'll be an adult in the eyes of modern viewers. and if not, and she meets sandor and they become best buddies, still no problem.

there's a joke that every time sean bean is cast, it's an automatic spoiler that the character he's playing will die, since it happens so often. i think the moment they cast rory, it looked a lot like a spoiler of what wouldn't be happening between sansa and sandor, but that's just one opinion. it all remains to be seen.

Again - why? I don't get it. Could you please explain?

[Le Cygne]

i think the moment they cast rory, it looked a lot like a spoiler of what wouldn't be happening between sansa and sandor, but that's just one opinion. it all remains to be seen.

SanSan was always super popular in the fandom, and became even more so after the show. Many of them have never read the books. He's playing down in age, they had him listed in his 30's in the pilot. She's 18 but playing 15, she had her name day since the last time she said her age. She seemed pretty stoked to have sex with Loras last season. Seems like a lot of interest in the story. And GRRM wrote a scene with him sticking out his tongue and staring at her, he said it was beautiful (GRRM seems to really dig age gaps, there's one in his latest story with a 16 year old and a 49 year old).

You've said you want Sansa to end up with Tyrion. Are you making the same prediction about that? Pretty sure the actors who play both characters are about the same age.

[Colonel Green]

She was a joke in King's Landing, not the production team's office

No, she was a joke within the show too. Hence, several scenes in season 3 which all make her into a punchline about how dumb she is.

[Gregor Blows in the Wind]

No, she was a joke within the show too. Hence, several scenes in season 3 which all make her into a punchline about how dumb she is.

A punchline used by characters? Or by members here?

[Colonel Green]

A punchline used by characters? Or by members here?

A punchline within the show. Like the scene built around her not knowing the word "shit", for instance. Or the one where she thinks her family will be coming to her wedding. Or the "sex talk" which ends with Margaery giving up because she's dumb and missed the point of everything Margaery was saying. Or the scenes built around making a joke of how she doesn't know Loras is gay. All of those scenes are there to make the audience laugh at her.

[Annara Snow]

SanSan was always super popular in the fandom, and became even more so after the show. Many of them have never read the books. He's playing down in age, they had him listed in his 30's in the pilot. She's 15, she had her name day since the last time she said her age. She seemed pretty stoked to have sex with Loras last season. Seems like a lot of interest in the story. And GRRM wrote a scene with him sticking out his tongue and staring at her, he said it was beautiful (GRRM seems to really dig age gaps, there's one in his latest story with a 16 year old and a 49 year old).

You've said you want Sansa to end up with Tyrion. Are you making the same prediction about that? Pretty sure the actors who play both characters are about the same age.

the show won't have any headaches about how they've portrayed sansan. this plotline will either not amount to anything "romantic slash sexual" as you put it or it will become that after a few years, when sansa is older. either way, its a win-win for the show. sansa is 14 on the show. if sansa stays hidden during the long winter, and it's possible that she will, she'll be an adult in the eyes of modern viewers. and if not, and she meets sandor and they become best buddies, still no problem.

there's a joke that every time sean bean is cast, it's an automatic spoiler that the character he's playing will die, since it happens so often. i think the moment they cast rory, it looked a lot like a spoiler of what wouldn't be happening between sansa and sandor, but that's just one opinion. it all remains to be seen.

Peter Dinklage and Rory McCann were both born in 1969. Rory is turning 45 the next week (on the 24th), Peter in June. (Interesting fact - Aidan Gillen has the same birthday as Rory, but he's a year older and will be turning 46 next week.)

I'm pretty sure everyone on the show is playing down their age, with the exception of Peter Vaughn, Julian Glover and David Bradley, who are playing older than they are, for obvious reasons, and the new Mountain, who is a special case. (Jason Momoa may have been the only actor who was exactly his character's age.) Ned is certainly not meant to be 50 in season 1 and Catelyn is not meant to be in her late 40s, it makes no sense. It's not like they waited till they were 30+ till they got married and had kids, in their kind of society. Tyrion is supposed to be a few years younger than Jaime and Cersei, but Peter Dinklage is older than both his on-screen 'siblings'. The actors playing 17-year olds or 16-year olds (Richard Madden, Kit Harrington, Emilia Clarke, Joe Dempsie) are all in their late 20s. It would be ridiculous to expect a 27-year old actor to be cast as Sandor. Imagine someone who looks the same age as Sansa's "teenage" brothers playing Sandor. The show has also tried to make people like Dany/Jorah and has even tried to make Tyrion/Sansa more palatable or rootable, so to speak (which I find mind-boggling, but I guess it's a consequence of D&D's feelings for Tyrion). And they've played with Arya/Gendry, too.

I've seen that argument before and I've always found it mind-boggling. I mean, really, Sansa is 11 in the books and 12 at the time of the Blackwater battle. Sandor is supposed to look old enough to pass for Arya's father, at least. How is it less appropriate to play with future romantic possibilities between a 14-year old girl played by a 16-year old and a (probably) 30-something played by a 43-year old man - compared to a 12-year old an a 27-year old man? Her age is the problem. Imagine if they actually had cast a 26/27-year old guy and an 11-year old actress and what that would look like. Say, imagine an ambiguously-romantic scene between Richard Madden and the actress who played Lizzie on The Walking Dead. Can anyone imagine people shipping that if they saw it on screen?

It's also funny because Hollywood is infamous for casting younger actresses (15 years younger on average, often more) as love interests for older, famous male leads. It's normal for Hollywood as long as the woman is of age. It's the opposite that happens rarely, though some brave movies and TV shows have done it (the pairing of Nick Stahl and Adrienne Barbeau on Carnivale, for instance, though they eventually abandoned that in season 2 in favor of an age appropriate ship tease).

I sometimes think that some book fans may have created some unlikely images in their head of what the characters look like, with a Sandor who looks like a modern-day 27-year old guy (basically, the age that Richard Madden, Kit Harington and Joe Dempsie are) and a Sansa who looks like she's 18-20 (though Sophie Turner actually has turned 18 now and has looked like she could have been 20+ since season 2 at least). Basically, something similar to how Jack from Will and Grace described The O.C.: "...25-year-old teenagers and 35-year-old parents."

And it's also interesting to note that GRRM, when asked who he saw in the role of Sandor when he was writing the books, said Ron Perlman.

And yep, I've seen lots of SanSan shipping by the Unsullied during the first two seasons. But it seems almost forgotten now, simply because the characters are have been in different locations and don't talk about each other.

[Rhaenys Reborn]

I've seen that argument before and I've always found it mind-boggling. I mean, really, Sansa is 11 in the books and 12 at the time of the Blackwater battle. Sandor is supposed to look old enough to pass for Arya's father, at least. How is it less appropriate to play with future romantic possibilities between a 14-year old girl played by a 16-year old and a (probably) 30-something played by a 43-year old man - compared to a 12-year old an a 27-year old man? Her age is the problem. Imagine if they actually had cast a 26/27-year old guy and an 11-year old actress and what that would look like.

But it's not about how old the characters are (of course we don't want a 12 year old during the Blackwater scene... although on the other hand that scene was so watered down compared to the books that it wouldn't be inappropriate at all), it's about how big the age difference is. There is more or less 16 years between book!Sansa and book!Sandor. There is 27 years between Sophie and Rory.

Now tell me that doesn't make a huge difference.

[Le Cygne]

I put the link in the next post.

[Annara Snow]

But it's not about how old the characters are (of course we don't want a 12 year old during the Blackwater scene... although on the other hand that scene was so watered down compared to the books that it wouldn't be inappropriate at all), it's about how big the age difference is. There is more or less 16 years between book!Sansa and book!Sandor. There is 27 years between Sophie and Rory.

Now tell me that doesn't make a huge difference.

Um. See the rest of my post.

Sansa is 11 in the first book and 12 in the second.

Now tell me how you would feel if you saw a "romantic" scene between Richard Madden (27) and this girl (11).

If you really think that a relationship between a pre-teen and a guy in his late 20s in more acceptable and less squicky than one between two adults with a 26-years difference... well, that's just nuts.

In real life, the latter will raise a few eyebrows and cause a bit of gossip or ridicule. (Like, say, Michael Douglas marrying Catherine Zeta Jones, or ) The former gets one of them straight into jail and sex offenders list.

Sansa was not an adult and neither was Sophie when she was filming season 2 (or season 3, but that didn't stop some TV viewers and TV articles writer from shipping her from Tyrion. Just like her age difference with Rory didn't stop the SanSan shipping among the Unsullied). But it would have looked 100 times more uncomfortable if she was meant to be 12 and was played by an actress who was actually 12 (if we are going by "actors' age = characters' age").

Bottom line, age differences matter a whole lot less the older the younger person is.

[Gregor Blows in the Wind]

A punchline within the show. Like the scene built around her not knowing the word "shit", for instance. Or the one where she thinks her family will be coming to her wedding. Or the "sex talk" which ends with Margaery giving up because she's dumb and missed the point of everything Margaery was saying. Or the scenes built around making a joke of how she doesn't know Loras is gay. All of those scenes are there to make the audience laugh at her.

That's what bothers you?

Honestly, it's the character Martin wrote. Those are new scenes written for the show, but it isn't a rethinking of Sansa by any stretch. It actually really helps show just how much she's kept her innocence. And that to me is important to her arc.

[Colonel Green]

That's what bothers you?

One of the things.

Honestly, it's the character Martin wrote. Those are new scenes written for the show, but it isn't a rethinking of Sansa by any stretch. It actually really helps show just how much she's kept her innocence.

No, it makes her look dumb. Thinking her family was coming to her wedding, in particular, is something she could only have thought if she had completely forgotten there was a war going on.

[Rhaenys Reborn]

Um. See the rest of my post.

Sansa is 11 in the first book and 12 in the second.

Now tell me how you would feel if you saw a "romantic" scene between Richard Madden (27) and this girl (11).

If you really think that a relationship between a pre-teen and a guy in his late 20s in more acceptable and less squicky than one between two adults with a 26-years difference... well, that's just nuts.

In real life, the latter will raise a few eyebrows and cause a bit of gossip or ridicule. (Like, say, Michael Douglas marrying Catherine Zeta Jones, or ) The former gets one of them straight into jail and sex offenders list.

Sansa was not an adult and neither was Sophie when she was filming season 2 (or season 3, but that didn't stop some TV viewers and TV articles writer from shipping her from Tyrion. Just like her age difference with Rory didn't stop the SanSan shipping among the Unsullied). But it would have looked 100 times more uncomfortable if she was meant to be 12 and was played by an actress who was actually 12 (if we are going by "actors' age = characters' age").

Bottom line, age differences matter a whole lot less the older the younger person is.

You're not getting my point. Of course I agree with aging the kids up. But if they aged show Sansa up to 13 at the beginning (the actress was about 14-15), then they should have cast a more or less 31 year old guy to play Sandor. Not a 40-something year old.

[Gregor Blows in the Wind]

No, it makes her look dumb. Thinking her family was coming to her wedding, in particular, is something she could only have thought if she had completely forgotten there was a war going on.

You say dumb, I say naïve. I suppose the family at the wedding bit could be more accurately described as flighty, or hell, if you want to call it dumb that's fine with me. But I don't think it's a damning piece of dumb. She's a scared girl, in over her head, and maintained a semblance of dignity and a full-blown good heart. Book and show. She was petty at times because, to her, that was her only way to act out without fearing for her life (or maybe just the only way she knew how). Book and show.

If she asked about her family coming to her wedding while still trying to come to terms with the prospect of marrying a Lannister, or a dwarf, or really just anyone who didn't fit her preconceived notion of knight in shining armor, I can certainly not say it's automatically out of character for either Sansa or any other previously-sheltered young girl. Book or show.

[Annara Snow]

You're not getting my point. Of course I agree with aging the kids up. But if they aged show Sansa up to 13 at the beginning (the actress was about 14-15), then they should have cast a more or less 31 year old guy to play Sandor. Not a 40-something year old.

Together with casting a 37-year old to play Ned, a 33-year old s Littlefinger, a 25-year old to play Tyrion, and teenagers to play Robb, Jon, Dany, Margaery, Loras and Gendry?

You're not getting my point. Why should Sandor be cast with an actor of the character's age, when all the other characters are not? Why should they cast someone as Sandor who's about the same age as the characters who are playing older teenagers? Should he look the same age as Robb and Jon? Shouldn't he look older than Tyrion, just a few years younger than Littlefinger, no more than 8-9 years younger than Ned? It would look awfully weird if Sandor looked the same age as Robb.

Should he look younger than all the adults around him? Why should there be an exception just for him? To make his relationship with Sansa look more age appropriate for shipping and less weird and uncomfortable? It's not supposed to be age appropriate, he's supposed to look at least old enough for people to think he's Arya's father (and Arya is just 2 years younger than Sansa) and it is weird and uncomfortable in the books. She was 12 the last time they've seen each other.

[Rhaenys Reborn]

Together with casting a 37-year old to play Ned, a 33-year old s Littlefinger, a 25-year old to play Tyrion, and teenagers to play Robb, Jon, Dany, Margaery, Loras and Gendry?

You're not getting my point. Why should Sandor be cast with an actor of the character's age, when all the other characters are not? Why should they cast someone as Sandor who's about the same age as the characters who are playing older teenagers? Should he look the same age as Robb and Jon? Shouldn't he look older than Tyrion, just a few years younger than Littlefinger, no more than 8-9 years younger than Ned? It would look awfully weird if Sandor looked the same age as Robb.

Should he look younger than all the adults around him? Why should there be an exception just for him? To make his relationship with Sansa look more age appropriate for shipping and less weird and uncomfortable? It's not supposed to be age appropriate, he's supposed to look at least old enough for people to think he's Arya's father (and Arya is just 2 years younger than Sansa) and it is weird and uncomfortable in the books. She was 12 the last time they've seen each other.

Sandor is a special, delicate case. None of the remaining actors who play "adults" is in a somewhat romantic relationship with a minor. I don't get you. You say it's creepy to imagine a 27 year old with a 12 year old (which I agree), but you're actually arguing the bigger age gap the better?

If the actor playing Sandor would have been 31 in season 1, he would still have been older than the actors who play Robb, Jon, Dany, Loras etc. And even if he looked closer in age to them, so what? it's not like it matters to the storyline, unlike his age difference with Sansa.

And book Sandor is only a few years older than book Tyrion so making him look a bit younger wouldn't be that much of a deal either. The other characters and their age difference with Sandor are completely irrelevant. The only characters whose age difference with him IS relevant are Sansa and Arya.