[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa VI: Purple reign

['96Buck]

The series messed up, though. The way they played it, Margeary really did seem to have control over Joffrey, even at the wedding. Cersei's fears about that were justified. In the series, it doesn't logically follow that they would want Joffrey dead. They seemed to have control of the king.

she may have had some influence, sure. That's a lot different than control. Margarey didn't want her brother humiliated in front of (figuratively) the whole kingdom. She didn't want a scene with the book and snubbing Sansa. She didn't want the scene with Tyrion.

And that's in front of Tywin and Cersei and the Realm. What happens behind closed doors?

[Woman of War]

It's to make up for it being underused in Sansa's plot.

And I think discussing her agency is useful, because Show!Sansa is still a passive victim. It was a big character moment for Book!Sansa to be proactive about her escape. It's sad we've been robbed of it.

Then maybe Sansa is meant to be a more or less passive victim at this point of the story, getting fooled by Dontos does not exactly make her have impact on her own story, it's still getting fooled, an illusion of "agency".

I think the way the episode goes Sansa transfers far more getting a grip of the situation than that pseudo-active escape. In the books she may not be shipped in a literal barrel with Dontos but for sure in a mental one.

Edit: we are actually comparing two storylines by Martin himself. He adapted (imo improved) the HBO solution since now we have a far older and more mature Sansa who deserves to be taken seriously in a different way.

[Colonel Green]

Then maybe Sansa is meant to be a more or less passive victim at this point of the story

But she's not a passive victim. She's active in trying to escape, and showing courage in doing so; she isn't just sitting around, which is what the show version is doing. She doesn't understand everything going on around her, but that she's ultimately being manipulated doesn't take away from her being an active agent.

Edit: we are actually comparing two storylines by Martin himself. He adapted (imo improved) the HBO solution since now we have a far older and more mature Sansa who deserves to be taken seriously in a different way.

The book Sansa was far more mature than the show's version to date, and her ability to act for herself was part of that. Indeed, TV Sansa has acted younger than the book version for most of the show's run, in particular last year, where she seemed to forget there was a war going on.

This storyline isn't "by Martin himself". The showrunners plot the series, and Martin works from their template. The decision to cut Sansa's agency was theirs, not his.

[Little Lark]

No, the idea enters her head at the same time:

“Arrest my brother,” she commanded him. “He did this, the dwarf. Him and his little wife. They killed my son. Your king. Take them! Take them both!”

I have no idea what your point is. You indeed cite situations where the characters didn't have agency, but Sansa had agency in this situation in the books. Especially important in that it was virtually her only vehicle to have any to date (unlike Tyrion and Dany). And the show cut it, leaving her consistently without agency for the last three seasons.

Ahh, totally forgot about that. It's been a while since I've re-read ASoS. Thanks for pointing it out!

[Raksha 2014]

Then maybe Sansa is meant to be a more or less passive victim at this point of the story, getting fooled by Dontos does not exactly make her have impact on her own story, it's still getting fooled, an illusion of "agency".

I think the way the episode goes Sansa transfers far more getting a grip of the situation than that pseudo-active escape. In the books she may not be shipped in a literal barrel with Dontos but for sure in a mental one.

Edit: we are actually comparing two storylines by Martin himself. He adapted (imo improved) the HBO solution since now we have a far older and more mature Sansa who deserves to be taken seriously in a different way.

Neither book nor TV Sansa had a lot of agency. Sansa was operating in an information void in a viper's nest; and had to judge things pretty much on face value, and she was already quite nervous about trusting the wrong people.

As I recall, book-Sansa realized, during the course of her meetings with Dontos, that he was not exactly the Florian of her girlish dreams, i.e. his slobbering and drinking and making her wait so long for the actual escape. She had agency enough to decide to marry Willas Tyrell instead of continuing in Dontos' escape conspiracy; but foolishly told Dontos about that decision, because she didn't know Dontos was reporting to Littlefinger who wanted Sansa for himself (and Sansa had no way of knowing that). So she was making decisions that would affect her life, even though she did not have all the information about what was going on behind the scenes. And after Sansa was married to Tyrion, she faced the choice of staying with Tyrion, maybe traveling with him to Casterly Rock or Essos (as he had offered) and still being subject to King Joffrey's whims, or continuing to work with Dontos, a man she suspected of being not totally competent and knew was a drunkard, for the chance of an escape. Sansa took a chance and opted for the escape plan, despite her frustration and concerns with the man who presented it. To me, that shows more agency than the girl in the TV show, who rejected two less chancy offers of escape (from TV-Sandor who had not threatened to rape her, and TV-Littlefinger who had directly offered to take her away), who is suddenly, when the poisoning of Joffrey casts all into chaos, is told by Dontos that she has to go with him, and does.

TV-Sansa makes a sudden decision in a moment when her environment has changed from relatively safe to totally chaotic and possibly dangerous; book-Sansa makes a difficult (considering who offers it) decision weeks earlier, conceals it from her captors and works to implement it (going to the Godswood for secret meetings with Dontos, smuggling in the clothes, etc.). I think book-Sansa shows more of what I would consider "agency". I do think it's great that the TV writers finally let TV Sansa make any decision, i.e. decide to go with Dontos as Joffrey is dying, but they have made the TV version of the character more passive than the original book character of Sansa, in my opinion.

[Three sisters]

I thought it pretty neat that you can hear the 'pling' when Olenna drops the poisoned stone in the cup. When you watch carefully, you see her removing the stone, casually walking by the table, and then the 'pling' of the falling stone, subtle, but not completely hidden by the music.

[Rohanne4]

So, my brother who has not read the books really likes Sansa. He doesn't find her terribly interesting, but he thinks she is the only realistic characters in the whole series, even how she was in the beginning of the show. And after all that has happened to her, she has remained kind and good (he thinks she is a lot like Ned). He believes she has a quiet strength and that she will not tolerate being there forever. After this episode, he was glad she chose to go with Dontos. He thinks she will head to the Eyrie. Anyways, thought I would share that some show fans do pick up on her subtleties, and that not a lot of dialogue is needed to convey how she feels, especially since Sophie does such an amazing job.

[joachim]

It occurs to me that they might've omitted her part in the planning so as not to tip off that something was going to happen at the wedding.

[Colonel Green]

It occurs to me that they might've omitted her part in the planning so as not to tip off that something was going to happen at the wedding.

That may well have been their thinking, but it's poorly considered on several levels, chief among them: the sense that something will happen at the wedding is what's generally called building suspense, and the fact that Sansa will be planning an escape doesn't somehow equal to the audience that Joffrey will die, so it does not spoil anything. The books managed things just fine.

[ground_control]

In the show, Petyr *talks* to Sansa about leaving, but doesn't actually offer a plan until after she's agreed to marry Loras, so she turns him down.

Petyr then screws that up, and Sansa is regretting not taking that offer after being married off to Tyrion, and then Joff dies in front of her and Dontos offers an escape and she jets.

I'm not sure how this isn't close enough to the books, or how this doesn't show Sansa's "agency" (she chooses to decline Petyr's offer of escape because she wants to marry Loras). Dontos's dialog may be a bit lame, but Sansa doesn't have to take his offer, she sees a chance to get out of Lannisterville and she takes it.

I'm not sure how adding several (probably boring and awkwardly written) scenes establishing a relationship with Dontos would make the show *better* than the admittedly less subtle, but also less painful, faster way the show did it.

[Colonel Green]

That's not nearly the same, particularly in terms of how active Sansa is (she just stands around and people come up to her), and who she's interacting with (all her interactions with Littlefinger do is allow the audience to call her dumb for thinking about going with him since he's so obviously a villain).

[juanml82]

That's not nearly the same, particularly in terms of how active Sansa is (she just stands around and people come up to her), and who she's interacting with (all her interactions with Littlefinger do is allow the audience to call her dumb for thinking about going with him since he's so obviously a villain).

Errr... Sansa rejects Littlefinger in Season 3, by being an active character who makes her own choices, which some people define as "agency"

[Colonel Green]

Errr... Sansa rejects Littlefinger in Season 3, by being an active character who makes her own choices, which some people define as "agency"

Like I said, I don't think it's nearly the same thing, beginning with her continued passivity throughout, and extending to the way the people she interacts with are framed.

[Annara Snow]

That's not nearly the same, particularly in terms of how active Sansa is (she just stands around and people come up to her), and who she's interacting with (all her interactions with Littlefinger do is allow the audience to call her dumb for thinking about going with him since he's so obviously a villain).

I generally agree, but to be fair here... wouldn't planning to run away with Dontos do the same, since he's not incredibly trustworthy either? It could have gotten her desperation to get away from KL across, but in the show, he just comes out of the blue ages after she saved him, and in the books, he's a bit creepy and seems full of shit (constantly going on about being her Florian and asking for a kiss), and in both of these, he is a pathetic drunk who doesn't seem incredibly capable. And book Sansa even trusted him enough to tell him about her planned marriage to Willas (an instance in which the show made someone else do something "stupid" instead of Sansa). Not to mention book!Dontos telling Sansa that the hairnet is "magic" and will help her get home and not explaining how.

When it comes to Sansa trying to get away from King's Landing/trusting people to get her out, however you do it, she can always be called either naive ("stupid" as some would say) or passive. It's a no-win situation. Either she decides to trust some of these shady people to get her out (or is simply too desperate to care, but people are not going to see the difference) or she does nothing because she correctly thinks none of them can be trusted.

ETA: Just thought of another instant in which Sansa didn't think things through - despite planning to get away from KL for a while, she was surprised that they were going to the Vale, because she had thought she was going to Winterfell. Winterfell was a half-burnt rubble at that point, and the Boltons were ruling the North, and she must have been aware of that. I hope they don't include that line in the show.

[Konradsmith]

^Maybe LF will say "I'm taking you to your family" instead of "taking you home". Either way he's telling the truth in a selective way to give her a false impression of what to expect from him.

[ground_control]

To the people saying Sansa has "no agency", I'm curious -- what are you expecting (wanting) her to do in order to show "agency"?

She's a 13-16 year old female noble of an "out of favor" House forcibly married to the least popular male noble in King's Landing. She's continually watched and guarded and largely restricted to the Red Keep. She hadn't been in King's Landing very long (a few months) long enough to make many acquaintances (much less friends) outside of her family's retainers before the sh*t went down, and then her family, friends, and retainers were all killed (or worse). She's surrounded by people of varying degrees of friendliness who all see her as "the key to the North" before anything else.

Despite whatever freedoms of movement she appears to have, she has to (correctly) assume that her enemies will see and hear almost anything she does, and she has little basis to know if anybody is truly on her side. She is a pawn in other people's games, and she's just beginning to learn the game. The reality is that her main "moves" are pretty much choosing how to react to other people's attempts to use/move her. In the book we can literally read her mind, but from an "outside" view -- i.e., what she shows to all the people watching her, both in-show and a television audience, shes showing us (the audience) exactly what she *should* want the Lannisters (her captors) to see -- a quiet, dutiful young Lady who does what she's told.

She has a very limited range of things she can do (even before captivity), but the choices she makes do have consequences:

1) She declines to testify against Joff or Arya at the Trident

2) She runs to the Queen when she's about to be shipped back to Winterfell

3) She almost kills King Joff (per Book and Show, it's pretty clear that only the Hound stepping in between her and Joff prevents her from pushing him off the wall at the end of AGOT)

4) She saves Ser Dontos

5) She agrees to marry Willas in order to get free of the Lannisters (declining Littlefinger's offer)

6) She chooses which Lannister to help at her wedding (I prefer the Book version, but I don't think the show version is wrong -- Tyrion was going to use a stool and not make her kneel, Joff removes the stool, so while kneeling may be seen as choosing to be nice to Tyrion, it can be seen as countering Joff)

7) She chooses to go with Dontos

[Pimphand Giantfinger]

If anybody is a close watcher of the show and an astute reader of the books you'll notice that LF has stolen two of the Hounds lines from the book.

Why is this the case? ( besides the obvious, its just easier for the show pace to have it done this way.)

1. In season one it is Petyr not Sandor whom tells her about how his face was burned. ( the Lying game in my opinion. Just testing her to see if she can keep a secret and she only tells her sister which is expected since Arya will never divulge the secret.)

2. At the end of season two he yet again steals a Sandor line when he tells her they are all better liars here, after she is dismissed for Margery. ( adaptation of the little bird sequence.)

I think the Sandor/Arya plotine will connect to the Littefinger/Sansa/Lysa/Vale for the show. The boat the brought the troop of dwarfs from Braavos and took Sansa to the Vale will also be used to carry Arya to Braavos after her and hound cut their way through moonbrothers and stormcrows in the " mountains" .

[Beric175]

They'll telegraph another meet-up between Arya and her relatives but then the Hound dies by Rorge and she escapes, leaving him to die. Also, LF, stop stealing the Hound's lines, you sly trickster.

[Colonel Green]

To the people saying Sansa has "no agency", I'm curious -- what are you expecting (wanting) her to do in order to show "agency"?

The stuff she did in the books.

^Maybe LF will say "I'm taking you to your family" instead of "taking you home". Either way he's telling the truth in a selective way to give her a false impression of what to expect from him.

I suspect they'll drop that altogether. It's one of GRRM's kind of cheap misdirects at the end of a chapter, and while it might work okay in a book with a lot of space between chapters, on the show having him imply they're going north in episode 3 and then turn around and reveal they aren't in episode 4/5 would look really lame.

[Skore]

i don't know. it's impossible to think that given cersei screaming "murder". it also doesn't help that joffrey had just finished completely humiliating tyrion in a very public way which already had everyone on edge. there's no way the tyrells could have anticipated that.

We have more info on this from the books. Joffrey didn't want the dwarf jousters until a certain person pointed out how much his uncle would hate it.