Book vs. Show Characters: Better, Worse, Mixed, or just Different?

[jentario]

Triple post

Shame on me

[Cyril]

I agree, for the most part, but I do think they could have shown his darker nature to some extent, maybe in a different way than in the books, rather than writing it out entirely.

I was mostly disagreeing with the statement that Tyrion isn't a grey character at the point we've reached on the television series, when he certainly is.

[Annara Snow]

Forgive me for being late, but ...what? He's certainly very grey throughout ACoK and ASoS, not just in ADwD where it's more pronounced. Remember what he did to Tommen? Cersei (and not just the poisoning)? Symon Silver Tongue?

He didn't do anything to Tommen. He just made a threat to Cersei, pretending to be absolutely horrible and twisted (using the fact that she has such an opinion of him), which he, of course, never had an intention to do.

What did he do to Cersei? I can't remember anything apart from poisoning her.

Apart from Symon Silver Tongue, the 'whitewashing' has mostly been in his relationships with women. The show makes him look less needy and insecure, nicer, and his behavior more healthy; the changes to Shae have changed Tyrion a lot, too - he doesn't seem so delusional, he doesn't act possessive and jealous with Shae as he does in the book (she's the jealous one in the show), where he tries to control who she gets to talk to etc. and puts only eunuchs and homosexuals as her guards, and also slaps her once when they have an argument; in the show it's real love and a more equal relationship. And then there are the big changes to the wedding night with Sansa - the show definitely made him look much better there. We also don't get his internal thoughts, some of which are pretty unpleasant, such as his dismissive attitude and lack of compassion for Lollys (because she's not in the show) and we don't see such moments as him being tempted by Sansa's claim to Winterfell when Tywin brings it up as a reason for him to marry Sansa. For that matter, we don't see Tywin mentioning Lollys as an alternative bride and Tyrion refuse with disgust - which is not something I would consider bad on Tyrion's part, but would make a lil' bit more difficult for fanboys to complain that Sansa is oh so 'shallow' for not wanting to be fucked by a guy she doesn't find physically attractive (then again, it's not like it's stopped some of the book fans from doing the same without noticing the double standard...).

[Rill Redthorn]

Apart from Symon Silver Tongue,

Heh, I'm not sure you can set apart the stuff with Symon Silver Tongue. Basically you're saying, "Apart from when Tyrion had a singer who tried to extort money from him killed and eaten, they haven't cleaned up his character at all!"

That is sort of important here.

[Annara Snow]

Heh, I'm not sure you can set apart the stuff with Symon Silver Tongue. Basically you're saying, "Apart from when Tyrion had a singer who tried to extort money from him killed and eaten, they haven't cleaned up his character at all!"

That is sort of important here.

No, I'm basically saying exactly what I actually said: "Apart from Symon Silver Tongue, the 'whitewashing' hasmostly been in his relationship with women."

I've seen a lot of Straw Man, but this one takes it to a whole new level. It's like you just read the first five words of that sentence and stopped reading, imagining the rest in your head.

You know, quoting just the first part of the sentence doesn't help you misconstruct my meaning, when my post is right there above yours for everyone to see.

[Rill Redthorn]

No, I'm basically saying exactly what I actually said: "Apart from Symon Silver Tongue, the 'whitewashing' hasmostly been in his relationship with women."

I've seen a lot of Straw Man, but this one takes it to a whole new level. It's like you just read the first five words of that sentence and stopped reading, imagining the rest in your head.

You know, quoting just the first part of the sentence doesn't help you misconstruct my meaning, when my post is right there above yours for everyone to see.

Er, no. The whole point of your post was that Tyrion's whitewashing was confined to his relationships with women if you ignore what happened to Symon Silver Tongue. I'm saying you can't ignore that if you're trying to argue that Tyrion was somehow not whitewashed except for him being less of a deluded womanizer.

If you wanted to say something different, it would have been: "I agree he's been whitewashed, especially where they left out the murdering of Symon and sticking him in a public food source, and they've also whitewashed his behavior with women as well."

[Annara Snow]

Er, no. The whole point of your post was that Tyrion's whitewashing was confined to his relationships with women if you ignore what happened to Symon Silver Tongue. I'm saying you can't ignore that if you're trying to argue that Tyrion was somehow not whitewashed except for him being less of a deluded womanizer.

If you wanted to say something different, it would have been: "I agree he's been whitewashed, especially where they left out the murdering of Symon and sticking him in a public food source, and they've also whitewashed his behavior with women as well."

Er, no. Something I never said, such as that Symon Silver Tongue is unimportant of should be ignored, cannot be "the whole point of my post", since, you know, I never said any such thing. In order for something to even qualify as "the whole point" of something, it has, for starters, to be a part of that.

If I wrote the sentence you suggested above, I wouldn't be saying something different, I would be saying the exact same thing in a slightly different way. Apart from this there was that, besides this there was that, in addition to this there's that, there's this and there's that. There are several different ways to say the exact same thing.

[The Drunkard]

Early in ASOS, Stannis was burning people just like in season 4. Early in ASOS, Stannis was Melisandre's bitch. Early in ASOS, Stannis was ready and wiling to kill his child nephew (and in this scenario the show actually made him look better since Gendry is a grown man) and ready and willing to execute Davos when he sent Edric away... We don't see as much of Stannis's good side in the show, but it's hard to say that they are making him a villain when he isn't really doing anything worse than in the books.

Stannis had four people burned on Dragonstone in the books, at most. Sunglass, because he refused to serve Stannis after Stannis publicly adopted R'hllor. The two Rambtons, because they attacked Stannis' men as they looted Stannis' sept. And Alester, who was using his position as Hand to organize a surrender with Tywin that involved Shireen being given over as a hostage. He makes no demands on individuals to change religion, and, in fact, appoints a man renowned for his worship of the Seven as his castellan. On the show, Stannis burns everyone that speaks against Melisandre, or disobeys his order to convert. These burnings occur for very different reasons, one fitting with Stannis' harsh, unfeeling sense of justice, the other for intolerant, tyrannical and wholly unnecessary reasons.

Early in ASOS Stannis was the opposite of ready and willing to kill Edric, that's blatantly and explicitly untrue. He was adamantly opposed, refusing Melisandre, Selyse and Axell multiple times over multiple chapters, only agreeing to the sacrifice after:

- All three kings had died. Before that point he was still refusing, even laughing at Melisandre when Davos cracks his 'a smuggler knows two onions from three' quip.

- Threatening Melisandre with a painful death if she was deceiving him. It displays a level of independence not demonstrated by the character on the show. This Stannis has a code, and the consequences of having him break it due to lies would be severe, even for Melisandre.

- Suggesting pardons, and suggesting that the kingdom "must" turn to him after Joffrey's death. He was still looking for ways to avoid the sacrifice.

Book Stannis was clearly not Melisandre's "bitch", and clearly not easily swayed into sacrificing Edric. Convincing him was a long process that took the majority of the book (certainly not 'early in ASOS'), and he tested Melisandre to a far greater degree before ultimately deciding on it.

Stannis was definitely willing to execute Davos after having learned of him smuggling Edric away, but the situation immediately following that was entirely different. In the book it Davos tells Stannis that he has his 'cart before the horse', that he should be doing his duty to win the throne rather than winning the throne to do his duty, prompting Stannis to travel to the Wall and save the Night's Watch. In the show, we have none of that, Stannis is still intent on killing Davos until Melisandre orders him not to. No speech about the cart before the horse, no speech about saving the kingdom to win the throne, just Melisandre telling him that the war of the five kings is meaningless and that they should prepare to go north, which he obeys.

[Red Tiger]

Ridiculously awesome post

This 100%

Im liking show Oberyn more than the book version

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

-snip-

The Drunkard does it again. Great post.

[solidviper]

Tyrion is definitely whitewashed, but I like it. Every time someone brings up Tyrion being whitewashed it has a negative attitude associated with it, but I love it. I guess there are just purists that dislike any deviation from the book canon though.

I liked show Catelyn better and show Tywin better too.

[Rill Redthorn]

Tyrion is definitely whitewashed, but I like it. Every time someone brings up Tyrion being whitewashed it has a negative attitude associated with it, but I love it. I guess there are just purists that dislike any deviation from the book canon though.

Nope, it doesn't have anything to do with deviations, at least not for me. I enjoy many of the changes made for the show and actually love some of them. But Tyrion is a very complex character, and making him a pure good guy cheapens his struggles (and what I hope will be his eventual triumph) for me. You measure a hero by the size of the obstacles he overcomes. Removing Tyrion's internal obstacles reduces his status as a heroic character.

[Magnar of Fens]

Tormund is so much better in the books, haven't heard him mention his gigantic member once on the show :thumbsdown:

[Oberyn2cool4Westeros]

Better in the show:

Jorah - A lot less creepy and an overall more interesting character.

Tywin - again, way more interesting to watch/listen to.

Beric - his epicness was upped in the show.

Thoros - ^

Worse in the show:

Stannis - butchered him, douched him up, and enslaved him to Mel.

The Mountain (v 2.0) - Uh, no - just no. First dude was perfect, second one was way off.

Coldhands - in the show he's a tree. Wow.

Shae - really annoying.

[Ser Eric]

All the book characters are better. Only Bronn comes to eclipsing his character.

Barring a few exceptions most of the characters have been cast very well though especially the likes of Hound, Tywin, Joffrey.

[Drake Heath]

Yeah, they really messed up with Show Stannis, he's a douche who barely listens to Davos when he's supposed to respect and listen to him.

Tywin is better in the show, by maybe it's just Charles Dance.

[Magnar of Fens]

Khal Drogo on the show was a brilliant reflection of book Drogo

[Nymeria Stone]

Better in the books:

Stannis- Not a Stannis fan, don't really like him, but... He really is better in the books. I'm waiting for the battle on the Wall and hoping they will save his character somehow

Jon- I think Jon seems smarter on the books. I hated how they changed the way Ygritte got away, It made him look like a complete idiot.

Catelyn- I love Michelle's performance, but her character on the show was pretty much "Robb's mom"

Better in the show:

Margaery- More manipulative and interesting

Tywin- I really liked show Tywin.

I should also say that Sophie Turner pretty much saved show Sansa for me.

[Fae Boleyn]

Better: Margaery, the Renly/Loras dynamic if not the characters - I like show!Renly and early show!Loras but Loras now not as much. Bronn is more entertaining, I adore Shireen, and the age-up has definitely benefited Rickon if none of the other Starks. Joffrey was much better in the show, as was Viserys. Two cardboard villains in the books given a bit more depth, at least in my view.

Worse: Hard to say because a lot of the actors - like Stephen Dillane and Michelle Fairley - are good at what they do even given crap, but I really didn't like show Robb, I kind of wanted to punch him, and making Edmure a total joke sucked. He was a bit clueless in the books but I've loved him since he told Cat he took the peasants into his keep because they were his people and scared. And show Edmure doesn't get to be that guy.

Mix of good and bad: Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, Melisandre

About the same: Ned, Varys (Conleth Hill embodies Varys), Aemon, LC Mormont, Tywin

Total change: Shae, though I like show Shae? Jeyne/Talisa too though, again, I liked Talisa but the change was unnecessary.

[Daske]

For me, almost all of the characters in the show are improvements for TV over those in the books.

But especially Tryion, Varys, Tywin, Visarys, The Hound and Arya (which says a lot as Arya was my favourite in the books). But most of the rest are pretty good too.

To portray Tyrion as more sympathetic was a good move imo. It works well for that character/portrayal.