Do you think Sansa's proposed marriage to Harrold Hardyng will happen?

[Waylin Stark]

I highly doubt it. We've seen similar grand schemes presented to us, only for them to end up failing miserably.

Littlefinger's pride is eventually going to lead to his downfall.

[Hippocras]

Absolutely, but none of them is of age apart from Martyn, so it is likely Genna must be called in to take care of Casterly Rock until they do. I already pointed out Genna is a Frey and not likely to survive. I already pointed out that Sansa being married to Tyrion suits LF. So, I don't see your point in correcting me by repeating my points. People think Lannisters are strong, but they have been decimated by this war. No one is paying attention, but I am sure LF does. I never said Sansa's claim to Casterly Rock is a done deal. I said it had potential and that's why LF actually thinks about her marriage to Tyrion as an added bonus to the Vale, the North and the Riverlands.

Daven is currently in charge and will stay that way. Genna has no role there. I have the impression you like her and want her to be more important than she is. But she is not Warden of the West, Daven is. Martyn will be lord after Cersei if Tyrion dies.

[Modesty Lannister]

1) Yes. I meant CR.

2) If they die it passes to Kevan children. Sansa doesn't have a drop of Lannister blood in her.

3) No. There are many Lanniter aside from Genna who can inherit Casterly Rock.

4) We do know that. That's why Cersei is the Lady of CR and Tyrion is in exile.

5) Why would he want to get back together with Sansa?

She literally has no claim to CR.

Cersei is not the Lady of CR yet. She is the queen regent. Kevan wanted to make her the Lady of CR and remove her for KL, but he died. we don't know what will happen next, but we do know Cersei and her children are going to die, which leaves Jaime and Tyrion. Since it is safe to assume Jaime will kill Cersei (prophecy), I don't see him as a claimant TO CR. Tyrion has the same problem. And if you look down the family tree, you'll see many other problems, which may in the future open the way for Sansa.

[Modesty Lannister]

I highly doubt it. We've seen similar grand schemes presented to us, only for them to end up failing miserably.

Littlefinger's pride is eventually going to lead to his downfall.

I fully agree that LF will not succeed. I'm just stating his plan.

[Lee-Sensei]

Cersei is not the Lady of CR yet. She is the queen regent. Kevan wanted to make her the Lady of CR and remove her for KL, but he died. we don't know what will happen next, but we do know Cersei and her children are going to die, which leaves Jaime and Tyrion. Since it is safe to assume Jaime will kill Cersei (prophecy), I don't see him as a claimant TO CR. Tyrion has the same problem. And if you look down the family tree, you'll see many other problems, which may in the future open the way for Sansa.

1) Cersei is the Lady of CR.

2) There are many other Lannisters that can inherit CR.

3) Sansa will never stand to inherit Casterly Rock in her own right. The only possible way for her to be take over the Westerlands is through a Lannister husband or her having a Lannister baby.

[Modesty Lannister]

Daven is currently in charge and will stay that way. Genna has no role there. I have the impression you like her and want her to be more important than she is. But she is not Warden of the West, Daven is. Martyn will be lord after Cersei if Tyrion dies.

If you look at the family tree, you'll see that Daven as grandson of Tytos's unnamed younger bother has less claim then Tytos's daughter Genna. He is just a caretaker since everyone is in KL. He is not the Lord of CR.

[Modesty Lannister]

1) Cersei is the Lady of CR.

2) There are many other Lannisters that can inherit CR.

3) Sansa will never stand to inherit Casterly Rock in her own right. The only possible way for her to be take over the Westerlands is through a Lannister husband or her having a Lannister baby.

She is married to Tyrion. Remember that odd wedding?

[Lee-Sensei]

She is married to Tyrion. Remember that odd wedding?

An unconsummated wedding that's unlikely to ever go anywhere seeing as she abandoned him when Joffrey died (from his perspective).

[Modesty Lannister]

An unconsummated wedding that's unlikely to ever go anywhere seeing as she abandoned him when Joffrey died (from his perspective).

Who knows it was unconsummated? I've already addressed this issue. I'm not going to repeat it just because you cannot be bothered to read posts of people, but can be bothered to object to them.

[Lee-Sensei]

Who knows it was unconsummated? I've already addressed this issue. I'm not going to repeat it just because you cannot be bothered to read posts of people, but can be bothered to object to them.

Even if they did sleep together she wouldn't inherit anything because she doesn't have his baby and Tyrion's been disinherited.

[Hippocras]

If you look at the family tree, you'll see that Daven as grandson of Tytos's unnamed younger bother has less claim then Tytos's daughter Genna. He is just a caretaker since everyone is in KL. He is not the Lord of CR.

Yes he is a caretaker, and in charge as long as any Lord or Lady of the Rock is away or not of age. Genna has no part. THAT is the point. Your claim was that somehow Genna was the best bet to survive and end up with the Rock and it is a baseless assumption. She will be neither the Lady of the Rock, nor the regent for whoever is. Many Lannisters ahead of her in line.

Anyway, the thread is about Sansa. So back to her.

My point regarding Tyrion was different from yours in that what I was saying was not that LF will use her current marriage to Tyrion, but that SHE will.

She may discover that Harry is not so much what she wants, and also that LF's plan would seem to involve murdering Robert Arryn. My point was that SHE may use her existing marriage to undermine his plans herself, and possibly save Robert's life.

[Modesty Lannister]

My point regarding Tyrion was different from yours in that what I was saying was not that LF will use her current marriage to Tyrion, but that SHE will.

She may discover that Harry is not so much what she wants, and also that LF's plan would seem to involve murdering Robert Arryn. My point was that SHE may use her existing marriage to undermine his plans herself, and possibly save Robert's life.

That's quite plausible from her point of view. I never said she would not oppose LF's plans (if she manages to figure them out). He is filtering all the information he feeds her heavily. What I explained is what I assume might be LF's plan and Sansa's potential role in it. I never said Sansa would readily agree to everything and just go along or that the plan would succeed in the end. There are too many factors at play that LF didn't take into account. But, since he is the puppet-master behind most major Westerosi events so far one would underestimate him if one tought LF did not have the grand plan. That was my vision of it.

[Hippocras]

That's quite plausible from her point of view. I never said she would not oppose LF's plans (if she manages to figure them out). He is filtering all the information he feeds her heavily. What I explained is what I assume might be LF's plan and Sansa's potential role in it. I never said Sansa would readily agree to everything and just go along or that the plan would succeed in the end. There are too many factors at play that LF didn't take into account. But, since he is the puppet-master behind most major Westerosi events so far one would underestimate him if one tought LF did not have the grand plan. That was my vision of it.

Ok then :)

[Mad Monkey]

I take your point about Tyrion being disinherited. But, was he? We don't see it in books or did I miss that? Even if he is, his grieving innocent young widow may seem better claimant in Westerlands than anyone else after Tywin's and Kevan's deaths.

Tyrion refers to himself as attainted in ADWD. Realistically, though, do you see someone as meticulous as Tywin or as fanatically hateful as Cersei just forgetting to attaint a convicted regicide? They're busy people but not THAT busy.

Who thinks she is innocent? Why should all of the Lannisters who are still alive -- the ones who are not part of Tywin's line -- defer to Sansa, a northerner who has never even been to the Westerlands? If the main House Lannister was extinguished, the Westerlands could far more easily dig up a cadet branch (House Lannister of Lannisport?)

As for the Iron Bank of Braavos, LF's family is from Braavos. As the master of coin, he plunged the realm into heavy debt with the said bank. So, we can safely assume he is well connected in Braavos and maybe even working for the bank from day 1.

Not really. LF's great-grandfather emigrated from Braavos a long time ago, and that is the extent of his Braavosi connections. As far as the amount of debt, if you look at the numbers it's actually not as bad as it seems. The realm was 6 million dragons in debt, but that was a total figure spread across the many creditors. 1/2 of that money was owed to House Lannister. Of the other 1/2, 1/3rd of that was owed to the Faith of the Seven (which we learn in AFFC), which means that the remaining 2 million of debt has to be divided evenly among the Iron Bank, the Tyrells, other banks in the Free Cities, assorted merchants, etc. LF did run up a lot of debts in total but only a small fraction of that was to the Iron Bank specifically. Based on this evidence, it's just as safe to assume that LF was working for the Lannisters or even the High Septon to shackle Robert -- he's helped them far more than he has helped the Iron Bank.

He is now removing Stannis from the board, because Stannis took over his brother's debts while taking further loans. In the long term, he would have to dance to LF's tune if he wants his debt repaid (bought by LF). JS took a loan as well (although I don't think it is a part of LF's plan, it's just an added bonus).

There's no reason to think that Stannis will require or even want LF's assistance in paying off the debts. If Stannis wins the war, he can use the incomes of the Seven Kingdoms to resume payments to the Iron Bank. In fact, a Stannis win will help the debt situation greatly since he will be in a position of strength to negotiate with the other creditors (most notably the Lannisters and the Tyrells) for debt forgiveness and more generous payment windows. Even if LF was behind the Iron Bank there isn't much that he can do to hamstring Stannis barring unforeseen circumstances.

[Modesty Lannister]

Tyrion refers to himself as attainted in ADWD. Realistically, though, do you see someone as meticulous as Tywin or as fanatically hateful as Cersei just forgetting to attaint a convicted regicide? They're busy people but not THAT busy.

Who thinks she is innocent? Why should all of the Lannisters who are still alive -- the ones who are not part of Tywin's line -- defer to Sansa, a northerner who has never even been to the Westerlands? If the main House Lannister was extinguished, the Westerlands could far more easily dig up a cadet branch (House Lannister of Lannisport?)

Not really. LF's great-grandfather emigrated from Braavos a long time ago, and that is the extent of his Braavosi connections. As far as the amount of debt, if you look at the numbers it's actually not as bad as it seems. The realm was 6 million dragons in debt, but that was a total figure spread across the many creditors. 1/2 of that money was owed to House Lannister. Of the other 1/2, 1/3rd of that was owed to the Faith of the Seven (which we learn in AFFC), which means that the remaining 2 million of debt has to be divided evenly among the Iron Bank, the Tyrells, other banks in the Free Cities, assorted merchants, etc. LF did run up a lot of debts in total but only a small fraction of that was to the Iron Bank specifically. Based on this evidence, it's just as safe to assume that LF was working for the Lannisters or even the High Septon to shackle Robert -- he's helped them far more than he has helped the Iron Bank.

There's no reason to think that Stannis will require or even want LF's assistance in paying off the debts. If Stannis wins the war, he can use the incomes of the Seven Kingdoms to resume payments to the Iron Bank. In fact, a Stannis win will help the debt situation greatly since he will be in a position of strength to negotiate with the other creditors (most notably the Lannisters and the Tyrells) for debt forgiveness and more generous payment windows. Even if LF was behind the Iron Bank there isn't much that he can do to hamstring Stannis barring unforeseen circumstances.

Have you read Stannis chapter from book 6?

[Mad Monkey]

The Theon one? A while ago, why? I missed something, didn't I?

[Tywin Manderly]

There's no reason to think that Stannis will require or even want LF's assistance in paying off the debts. If Stannis wins the war, he can use the incomes of the Seven Kingdoms to resume payments to the Iron Bank. In fact, a Stannis win will help the debt situation greatly since he will be in a position of strength to negotiate with the other creditors (most notably the Lannisters and the Tyrells) for debt forgiveness and more generous payment windows. Even if LF was behind the Iron Bank there isn't much that he can do to hamstring Stannis barring unforeseen circumstances.

Stannis could even cancel the debts to the Lannisters and the Tyrells due to their treason towards him.

[Tywin Manderly]

This is a cocky young knight with two bastard children, the heir who can have any girl he wants. Alayne has nothing going for her except a huge dowry, her charm and good looks. He's not going to want to settle down with Selyse Florent 2.0 just for that.

Alayne's huge dowry, charm and good looks are much more than most maidens have got to offer. On top of that is Alayne also the daughter of a Lord Paramount twice over as well as the future Lady Paramount of the Riverlands in her own right. Due to the combination of all those factors Sansa very much trumps any marriageable maiden in the Seven Kingdoms.

Futhermore, in Westeros is knocking up a couple of peasant girls a piece of cake for any highborn male, and very much a different kettle of fish than selecting wife material.

[Carter209]

Yes, I think it will happen and they'll end up married in the long term, ruling the Riverlands and not the Vale.

The way I see it, LF's blind spot for Sansa is really starting to show. She's Robert Arryn's maternal figure, giving her a HUGE influence over the boy lord. Now LF is going to have her seduce Harry so they can be married? I mean, come on now, he's giving Sansa the keys to the Vale and telling her to run with them. Plus, there's no way that Lady Waynwood doesn't know who Alayne Stone really is. We can talk monetary dowries all we want, there's no way the bastard daughter of LF, lord of a seat he has no interest in, would be given first crack at, possibly, the most eligible bachelor of marital age in Westeros. Along with that, if Harry were to marry Sansa, he's looking at the potential of being Lord of not one, but possibly three of the Seven Kingdoms.

IMO, Sansa's best hope for helping her brothers in the North is to, at the very least, forge a strong bond between SR and Harry to counter LF's influence. For once LF is disposed of, SR is going to need a regent, and I believe that Sansa will use Harry to rule in SR's name, while at the same time promising her hand in marriage to Harry to keep Rickon safe in the North. Sansa has shown some great potential in the Game, and if she doesn't advantage of what she's got and will soon get, meaning her current maternal-like relationship with SR and the almost certain affections of Robert Baratheon 2.0, then she has no hope of mastering the Game and beating LF once and for all.

[FC_Lymond]

I think Sansa's marriage to Tyrion will play a big part in events to come. It won't just be shrugged off and ignored. It could be used in different ways though. Sansa might still marry Harry as either Sansa or Alayne.

However, I think that will be some scene when Tyrion returns to Westeros where they meet, and there's some uncomfortable moment when Sansa has to introduce Tyrion to her lover/husband as also her husband. That's too good of an opportunity to pass up.