Rolling Stone Interview with GRRM

[Petyr Patter]

They wanted to implicate Tyrion (if it was discovered as poison) then take the still maiden Sansa (everyone knew Tyrion never consummated her ass) and give her to Willas.

I am quoting to you just to say the bolded phrase is one of the most curious amalgamations of speech I have ever read.

I answered this question in another thread but let me ctrl+v. It's the part in "".

"In eliminating Sansa, Olenna actually stopped a dramatic growth of Lannister power. I think Tyrion, given more time, would have eventually manned up and knocked Sansa up anyway, and Tywin's plan was to eventually eliminate the Bolton hold on the North (which he wouldn't have had any trouble doing). He would probably have used Sansa's stronger claim to Winterfell, being the elder sister of "Arya", to establish Lannister power in the North. Now the Lannister dynasty (Casterly Rock through Tywin and Winterfell through Tyrion) would control two of the seven kingdoms and the power dynamic of the Lannister-Tyrell relationship would have changed. Whereas before the Tyrells were supplying most of the men and food to the devastated King's Landing, having the Lannister's depend on them, the Lannister's growth of power to encompass more than half of Westeros would make the Tyrell's seem more dependent. This shift in the dynamic could possibly have put the Tyrells in more danger.

If Olenna did kill Joffrey, her intent to blame it on Sansa would have been shrewd. Of course, I guess an arguably better thing happened for the Tyrells when Joffrey pointed his finger at Tyrion. The execution of Tyrion would have meant the elimination of the lawful heir of Casterly Rock and a shrewd player. Of course, I guess Tywin would just marry Sansa off to Lancel or someone so perhaps it wasn't the best outcome Olenna was hoping for."

But your comment made me think... did fArya exist before Sansa's disappearance and Tyrion's conviction? Perhaps Tywin's concocted fArya as a plan B -- if the Lannisters could not control the north directly through marriage (Tyrion and Sansa's) they would have to control it indirectly through "rewarding" their allies the Boltons with the Lady Paramount of the North, "Arya Stark". Of course, the Boltons would not have reached their position without the help of the Lannisters, so they would be allies of the upcoming Lannister generations regardless, meaning that the entire North was secure under indirect Lannister control.

Of course, Olenna would have been startled by this, but I guess she was satisfied with removing Tywin's lawful heir (and the smartest Lannister after Tywin himself) from play, preventing the Lannisters from "inheriting" the North through Sansa and Tyrion's child. Or maybe she saw right through the ploy to pass Jeyne Poole off as Arya Stark and realised there was no way they could hold that up for long, and did not want to prevent the chaos that would result when the Boltons -- some of the Lannisters' staunchest supporters -- discovered they had been lied to. And that's why she decides to leave KL.

Hmmm... this is an interesting theory that I find myself buying into. They had already tried to wed Sansa to Willas, but Tywin made it clear he wasn't going to let that happen. A dead Tyrion and an innocent Sansa just means Tywin finds another Lannister husband for her. I think Lancel might have been off the market for the time being, but Tywin himself could always have stepped forward. Point being, Olena had to view Sansa as a "lost" objective.

Regardless, there were more Baratheon inheritances to distribute, and Olena needing to maintain a balance of power saw framing Tyrion and Sansa as a couple a good way to do so.

I'm pretty certain they main change will be that Olenna did not put the poison in the cup which most people don't believe any way but it's what LS claimed happened.

The other thing is that Sansa got the hair net before the Tyrells got involved so implicating Sansa was not the Olenna's plan it was LF's. Sansa already had the hair net and she would have got suspicious if Dontos asked for it back then saw Marg wearing it at the wedding. In fact the hair net plan could have had a completely different target before Olenna decided she needed to get rid of Joff, Sansa never going to be near Joff and LF had no one to deliver the poison to the head table.

Hmmm, I might have to re-read, but I'm fairly certain the hairnet is a later, Storm of Swords addition. Dontos himself made contact with Sansa right after Petyr was offered (falsely) Harrenhall for getting Lysa to declare for Joffrey. However, he then began to delay the escape plans with Sansa until after the Blackwater. The necklace itself didn't come up until the royal wedding approached. I think we have Littlefinger modifying his original plan (escape with Sansa before Stannis attacks King's Landing) to the actual events (time Sansa's escape so she looks guilty of regicide and thus more in my power).

[Hodor the Articulate]

I'm still reading the Rolling Stone interview and I do think just by the question about Joffrey's murder, it does seem the interviewer didn't read. He seems to be trying to pass off the idea that Joff died in the books long ago as definate knowledge, LOL. Although, I suppose that it could also be a case of just reading season by season to be up on information for the show, for the interview, and for a little extra knowledge. I don't get how the interviewer could possibly stop himself from continuing to read until the end of ADWD, but either way, I was wondering about these quotes from GRRM about the QoT, the killing of Joffrey, and the framing of Sansa.

In the books – and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal – the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa's hairnet, so that if anyone did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.

The reason I bring this up is because that's an interesting question of redemption. That's more like killing Hitler. Does the Queen of Thorns need redemption? Did the Queen of Thorns kill Hitler, or did she murder a 13-year-old boy? Or both? She had good reasons to remove Joffrey. Is it a case where the end justifies the means? I don't know. That's what I want the reader or viewer to wrestle with, and to debate.

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423#ixzz2zoxNmQUt

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While, yes, the questions of redemption and the idea of killing Hitler are interesting, I'm wondering this: IF The Queen of Thorns did murder Joffrey with the express purpose of Sansa being the scapegoat if the poisoning should be found out, isn't that a question that concerns if the QoT should be forgiven or redeemed for that? Sansa might have wound up being executed if she hadn't escaped King's Landing. Not to mention, Sansa jumping from the frying pan of the capital to the fire of being stuck at the possible mercy of Littlefinger is something that should be weighed in itself. What about forgiveness or redemption for Lady Olenna if she really did intend that Sansa take the fall? Yes, she may have rid the world of a Hitler-type, but what about what she did to Sansa.

Being as I like both of them, Sansa and The QoT, I find that question to almost be the more interesting one. One that I would have to confront without a certain bias, being as I do like both of them. That, to me, is the more interesting question, although, GRRM did leave some wiggle room for QoT. He's presenting the idea as if we may learn that Sansa wasn't supposed to be a fallgirl. Hmmmmm, interesting.

Back to my spot reading, LOL. Read a spot of the article now, read some later.

I don't know that this is a "killing Hilter" situation. Offing Joffrey may have been for the greater good, but that doesn't seem to have been Olenna's motive. She did it for her family, not for the realm.

[The Sleeper]

But, Sansa was intended to be framed. Her hairnet put her in grave danger, as she realised, when she was in the godswood.

I expect it was nothing personal on the part of the Tyrells. They just needed a handy scapegoat. Sansa and Tyrion had the motive, means, and opportunity to kill Joffrey.

She was more than framed. She was made an unwitting accomplice. There are more handy and disposable scapegoats and if Sansa were caught it would lead to questions on how she got her hands on a rare and expensive poison. When Cressen explained the origin of the poison it was stated that both the ingredients were rare and the manufacture difficult and known to only a few. Dontos would not suffice as a source of the poison and he would lead to LF and potentially the QoT.

Sansa's capture would not have been convenient at all, though it may not have been out of the question. Her possession of the hairnet can serve as leverage for her in case other means of manipulation fail. Either way it eliminates her as an asset for the Lannisters. On the other hand Tyrion's frame job appears much more opportunistic. However its was only Taena Merryweather who actually claimed to have seen Tyrion put the strangler in Joffrey's cup. Merryweather obviously intended to get in Cersei's good graces with her perjury, but it was also the only testimony that Tyrion had actually committed the murder. This suggests active Tyrrell participation in Tyrion's frame job. This is supported by Olena's invitation to Sansa to go to Highgarden, as if she knew Tyrion would not be an issue.

These are indications not proof certainly, but it leads me to believe that the QoT's ideal scenario was to have Tyrion executed and Sansa widowed and in Highgarden, perhaps even grateful to the Tyrrell's for having avenged her and released her from a hateful husband, but in any case under threat of revelation of her complicity in Joffrey's murder.

[bent branch]

This is maddening. Littlefinger has even given the perfect Evil Villain speech gloating about the conspiracy - yet GRRM is still leaving himself an out to re-frame the Purple Wedding at a later date. What is the purpose of hedging about the events at this point, unless the conclusion that the Careful Reader draws is ultimately incorrect?

I also noticed this in the interview. From this I am assuming that whoever is responsible in the show won't be who is responsible in the books. Further, as you say, it suggests that the majority opinion on who killed Joffrey is likely wrong.

[Guest Thorrand]

I feel the same about Arya, but apparently, she's a popular character.

She was in the thick of the war until storm of swords. Only recently detached. Danaerys has never been a part of the war.

[Fool of a Book]

Has anyone bought the issue? I want to read Kit's interview because of this "teaser" on the RS site:

"Harington also revealed that once the show has its final colorful wedding – which could still be five or more years away – he hopes to enjoy different sorts of roles."

Read more: here (not the full interview - not sure when the whole thing will be available online).

This statement has huge implications for book readers.

[DragonDreamer]

Has anyone bought the issue? I want to read Kit's interview because of this "teaser" on the RS site:

"Harington also revealed that once the show has its final colorful wedding which could still be five or more years away he hopes to enjoy different sorts of roles."

Read more: here (not the full interview - not sure when the whole thing will be available online).

This statement has huge implications for book readers.

Ooooh. That is a bit of a spoiler, I'm really curious to see what he meant. Perhaps it'll be a Stark wedding where all debts will finally be settled. (*_^).

[Fool of a Book]

Ooooh. That is a bit of a spoiler, I'm really curious to see what he meant. Perhaps it'll be a Stark wedding where all debts will finally be settled. (*_^).

Sounds like Jon's wedding, if you ask me. And that Jon obviously lives and is in a state to be married i.e. not UnJon. IMO. Not sure what else he could mean, the interview is about Kit's character after all.

I hope to pick up the issue today to find out the context of his statement.

[DragonDreamer]

Sounds like Jon's wedding, if you ask me. And that Jon obviously lives and is in a state to be married i.e. not UnJon. IMO. Not sure what else he could mean, the interview is about Kit's character after all.

I hope to pick up the issue today to find out the context of his statement.

Well, a Jon wedding where shit goes down against those who hurt the Starks would be a great way to end it. :)

Let us know in what context was the spoiler given. Tx

[Fool of a Book]

Well, a Jon wedding where shit goes down against those who hurt the Starks would be a great way to end it. :)

Let us know in what context was the spoiler given. Tx

On the cover:

The Man Who Would Be King: Kit Harington

Spoilers much? !!!! He's not even in the running where we left off after aDwD. We've all been merely speculating what could happen/be revealed in the future. Quite a confirmation for book readers, but show watchers are probably like WTH?

[chrisdaw]

I doubt whoever wrote that knows more about what is coming than we do.