Rolling Stone Interview with GRRM

[chrisdaw]

He doesn't say Tyrells, he only says QOT, and leaves it open for a further twist down the line.

But from what he said my interpretation is the QOT wanted the blame, if blame did occur, to fall on Sansa as a precaution from it falling closer to home. LF gave the impression he was on board with this but instead planned to spirit Sansa away without the QOT's knowledge. And so why they had Sansa bring the poison in the hairnet now makes sense to me.

It was the QOT's plan and LF went along with it because he planned to have Sansa out of there anyway.

[SeanF]

The point of framing Sansa for the murder of Joffrey escapes me. Yes, they needed a fall guy, and Sansa does have, in part thanks to them, both motive and opportunity, but why her? Also, there is the question of the poison: the strangler is not something Sansa would be likely to be able to lay hands on. That fact is used against Tyrion in the trial, as one may recall.

It seems to me that the plot has to include Tyrion as the one who would be chiefly blamed.

I suppose that the Tyrells who were a party to this may have had in mind thwarting Tywin in some way, and probably did not know about the fake Arya possibility. Perhaps they thought that if they implicated Tyrion, and got him out of the way, then Tywin would just find some other Lannister to wed to Sansa, e.g. Lancel, and one way or another, would keep the claim to Winterfell in Lannister hands. Thus the only sure way to stop this would be to eliminate Sansa herself. That Tywin would then come up with "Arya" and use her to secure control of the North indirectly via the Boltons must have startled even Lady Olenna.

I don't think anyone would have assumed Sansa was involved without Tyrion also being part of it.

But, there was no way they could marry Willas to Sansa after Joffrey's death without showing their approval for the plot. Sansa would have been condemned with Tyrion, had she been caught.

[Moondancer]

Excellent read. Love when we get a glimpse at the workings of GRRM's creative genius.

"We should be able to be forgiven. Because if there is no possibility of redemption, what's the answer then?"

"Why do we recognize power instead of individual autonomy? These questions are fascinating to me. It's all this strange illusion, isn't it?"

Also -

"Those final works, though, won't be anytime soon."

*slaps Rolling Stone*

[ovis alba]

I'm pretty convinced right now there is still more to the PW. I don't think the initial reveal (LF and QoT plotted including Sansa and the necklace) itself is wrong, but I think there might be another "layer" involved.

[Chillboy]

*The interviewer then goes on to say that everyone wields power badly except Dany. This is a laugh and I'm not sure why GRRM didn't call him on it. He must be used to questions even stupider than this, so he just goes on with his pat answer. Of course Dany in Meereen is one of the prime examples of wielding power badly.

Why? Dany is the only ruler who seeks actively peace for the good of her people.

I suggest reading these amazing essays.

[Guest Thorrand]

Why? Dany is the only ruler who seeks actively peace for the good of her people.

I suggest reading these amazing essays.

I had PTSD of reading dance again reading those. Still don't care.

[Formerly Tetrarch42]

I had PTSD of reading dance again reading those. Still don't care.

You really disliked Dance that much?

[The Sleeper]

It seems highly unlikely that someone would frame Sansa if it could be helped. She has the best lineage and blood claims in Westeros and better she is for the most friendless and defenceless. It would make much more sense to use her to lay claim to the North and Riverlands than waste her for a patchy. This seems to be confirmed by Olena Tyrell's renewal of her invitation to visit Highgarden at the start of the Purple Wedding. Her unwitting involvement in Joffrey's death can be of use of keeping her compliant, which fits with the agenda of both the QoT and LF.

[SeanF]

It seems highly unlikely that someone would frame Sansa if it could be helped. She has the best lineage and blood claims in Westeros and better she is for the most friendless and defenceless. It would make much more sense to use her to lay claim to the North and Riverlands than waste her for a patchy. This seems to be confirmed by Olena Tyrell's renewal of her invitation to visit Highgarden at the start of the Purple Wedding. Her unwitting involvement in Joffrey's death can be of use of keeping her compliant, which fits with the agenda of both the QoT and LF.

But, Sansa was intended to be framed. Her hairnet put her in grave danger, as she realised, when she was in the godswood.

I expect it was nothing personal on the part of the Tyrells. They just needed a handy scapegoat. Sansa and Tyrion had the motive, means, and opportunity to kill Joffrey.

[Moondancer]

Some of your most contemptible characters are also among the story's greatest truth-tellers. One of the most riveting moments in the TV series took place in the Battle of Blackwater episode, which you wrote the script for, when Sandor says to Sansa, "The world was built by killers, so you'd better get used to looking at them.

"Truth is sometimes hard to hear. Two of the central phrases are true, but they are not truths that most human beings like to contemplate. Winter is coming and Valar morghulis all men must die. Mortality is the inescapable truth of all life...and of all stories, too."

:love:

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I liked this quote from GRRM in reference to the execution scene (of Ned) in the show:

"As many times as I've watched this, it still has great effect. Of course for me, there's so much more to the books."

Take that ye Show Runners :) And if Lady Flandrensis is right, take that ye interviewer as well. (Yes, by the sound of it, if he has read the books, he has not yet reached ASoS.)

I still need to finish reading the article, but that little bit did get me, too. First, knowing his feelings on seeing Ned executed gave me a big awwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, and second, a bit of giggle at the little jab that seems to be at the show runners. It seems really appropriate after this week.

I was really looking forward to finishing the article (it seemed like it would be long, I saw the 10 hour visit mentioned, and was running out of time last night), but sounds like GRRM himself will be the only interesting segment of it, it seems. Bummer.

[benalapin]

The point of framing Sansa for the murder of Joffrey escapes me. Yes, they needed a fall guy, and Sansa does have, in part thanks to them, both motive and opportunity, but why her? Also, there is the question of the poison: the strangler is not something Sansa would be likely to be able to lay hands on. That fact is used against Tyrion in the trial, as one may recall.

It seems to me that the plot has to include Tyrion as the one who would be chiefly blamed.

I suppose that the Tyrells who were a party to this may have had in mind thwarting Tywin in some way, and probably did not know about the fake Arya possibility. Perhaps they thought that if they implicated Tyrion, and got him out of the way, then Tywin would just find some other Lannister to wed to Sansa, e.g. Lancel, and one way or another, would keep the claim to Winterfell in Lannister hands. Thus the only sure way to stop this would be to eliminate Sansa herself. That Tywin would then come up with "Arya" and use her to secure control of the North indirectly via the Boltons must have startled even Lady Olenna.

I answered this question in another thread but let me ctrl+v. It's the part in "".

"In eliminating Sansa, Olenna actually stopped a dramatic growth of Lannister power. I think Tyrion, given more time, would have eventually manned up and knocked Sansa up anyway, and Tywin's plan was to eventually eliminate the Bolton hold on the North (which he wouldn't have had any trouble doing). He would probably have used Sansa's stronger claim to Winterfell, being the elder sister of "Arya", to establish Lannister power in the North. Now the Lannister dynasty (Casterly Rock through Tywin and Winterfell through Tyrion) would control two of the seven kingdoms and the power dynamic of the Lannister-Tyrell relationship would have changed. Whereas before the Tyrells were supplying most of the men and food to the devastated King's Landing, having the Lannister's depend on them, the Lannister's growth of power to encompass more than half of Westeros would make the Tyrell's seem more dependent. This shift in the dynamic could possibly have put the Tyrells in more danger.

If Olenna did kill Joffrey, her intent to blame it on Sansa would have been shrewd. Of course, I guess an arguably better thing happened for the Tyrells when Joffrey pointed his finger at Tyrion. The execution of Tyrion would have meant the elimination of the lawful heir of Casterly Rock and a shrewd player. Of course, I guess Tywin would just marry Sansa off to Lancel or someone so perhaps it wasn't the best outcome Olenna was hoping for."

But your comment made me think... did fArya exist before Sansa's disappearance and Tyrion's conviction? Perhaps Tywin's concocted fArya as a plan B -- if the Lannisters could not control the north directly through marriage (Tyrion and Sansa's) they would have to control it indirectly through "rewarding" their allies the Boltons with the Lady Paramount of the North, "Arya Stark". Of course, the Boltons would not have reached their position without the help of the Lannisters, so they would be allies of the upcoming Lannister generations regardless, meaning that the entire North was secure under indirect Lannister control.

Of course, Olenna would have been startled by this, but I guess she was satisfied with removing Tywin's lawful heir (and the smartest Lannister after Tywin himself) from play, preventing the Lannisters from "inheriting" the North through Sansa and Tyrion's child. Or maybe she saw right through the ploy to pass Jeyne Poole off as Arya Stark and realised there was no way they could hold that up for long, and did not want to prevent the chaos that would result when the Boltons -- some of the Lannisters' staunchest supporters -- discovered they had been lied to. And that's why she decides to leave KL.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Anyone else check out the Rolling Stone interview with GRRM? Ran posted a link: http://www.westeros.org/ASoWS/News/Entry/Rolling_Stone_Interviews_GRRM

A couple of things I thought were interesting:

*GRRM asks the interviewer if he read the books and he says "yes" then he asks "who killed Joffrey" and the interviewer dodges the question, which I think is kind of funny. Was he just kissing ass? But then George goes on to talk about how the Tyrells wanted to pin the blame on Sansa if they decided that Joff was poisoned. It seems like it must be more complicated than that, otherwise why all the fuss with Littlefinger and the dwarfs to piss Tyrion off? Unless this was a side plot by LF to focus the blame on Tyrion while the Tyrells wanted to pin it on Sansa? Or was the idea that since Tyrion and Sansa are husband and wife pinning it on one is as good as pinning it on the other?

*The interviewer then goes on to say that everyone wields power badly except Dany. This is a laugh and I'm not sure why GRRM didn't call him on it. He must be used to questions even stupider than this, so he just goes on with his pat answer. Of course Dany in Meereen is one of the prime examples of wielding power badly.

Anyway it seems like George must have the patience of a saint if he really talked to this guy for 10 hours like he says. I don't mean to bash him but he seems just a small step above the usual vapid interviewers. (I assume he's a "he," but I suppose "Mikal" could be a girl's name?)

Well if GRRM disagreed about Dany I am sure he would have said something. Maybe he thinks Dany wields power properly.

[The Prophet of Patch]

I don't think he's out of character. He loved men and women, and on the show he has a strong masculine presence. He fights hard and loves hard and is man enough for everyone.

:agree:...I don't get why so many people are bothered by Show-Oberyn, he's supposedly bi and extremely sexual in the books. Pretty faithful to that so far, I'd say...

[willowbark]

I also think that the Queen of Thorns suspected that Sansa might one day be a rival for Margery, and thought it wouldn't hurt to take Sansa out early.

[Moondancer]

Well if GRRM disagreed about Dany I am sure he would have said something. Maybe he thinks Dany wields power properly.

Here's a wild thought - maybe people (the writer of the books included) who don't frequent this forum have a different, fresh take on the matter? :D

GRRM's always said that he explores the challenges of ruling, and that ruling is hard; Dany is certainly one of the characters to move that narrative vessel.

I'd venture to say he'd be very surprised to know how much Dany is demonised around here.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Here's a wild thought - maybe people (the writer of the books included) who don't frequent this forum have a different, fresh take on the matter? :D

GRRM's always said that he explores the challenges of ruling, and that ruling is hard; Dany is certainly one of the characters to move that narrative vessel.

I'd venture to say he'd be very surprised to know how much Dany is demonised around here.

this is the only place in the world she is so villainized (?) or demonized like this. Of course same goes for the people who defend the Red Wedding. All of Westeros agrees it was a monstrous tragedy, but not on here.

She is GRRM's 2nd favorite character next to Tyrion and I 100% understand why (she's clearly so awesome). This place makes me feel like I am eating crazy pills sometimes. But whatever, if people misinterpret the novels it's no sweat off my back, I enjoy them thoroughly and feel sorry for those that only look for things to hate.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I'm still reading the Rolling Stone interview and I do think just by the question about Joffrey's murder, it does seem the interviewer didn't read. He seems to be trying to pass off the idea that Joff died in the books long ago as definate knowledge, LOL. Although, I suppose that it could also be a case of just reading season by season to be up on information for the show, for the interview, and for a little extra knowledge. I don't get how the interviewer could possibly stop himself from continuing to read until the end of ADWD, but either way, I was wondering about these quotes from GRRM about the QoT, the killing of Joffrey, and the framing of Sansa.

In the books – and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal – the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa's hairnet, so that if anyone did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.

The reason I bring this up is because that's an interesting question of redemption. That's more like killing Hitler. Does the Queen of Thorns need redemption? Did the Queen of Thorns kill Hitler, or did she murder a 13-year-old boy? Or both? She had good reasons to remove Joffrey. Is it a case where the end justifies the means? I don't know. That's what I want the reader or viewer to wrestle with, and to debate.

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423#ixzz2zoxNmQUt
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook

.

While, yes, the questions of redemption and the idea of killing Hitler are interesting, I'm wondering this: IF The Queen of Thorns did murder Joffrey with the express purpose of Sansa being the scapegoat if the poisoning should be found out, isn't that a question that concerns if the QoT should be forgiven or redeemed for that? Sansa might have wound up being executed if she hadn't escaped King's Landing. Not to mention, Sansa jumping from the frying pan of the capital to the fire of being stuck at the possible mercy of Littlefinger is something that should be weighed in itself. What about forgiveness or redemption for Lady Olenna if she really did intend that Sansa take the fall? Yes, she may have rid the world of a Hitler-type, but what about what she did to Sansa.

Being as I like both of them, Sansa and The QoT, I find that question to almost be the more interesting one. One that I would have to confront without a certain bias, being as I do like both of them. That, to me, is the more interesting question, although, GRRM did leave some wiggle room for QoT. He's presenting the idea as if we may learn that Sansa wasn't supposed to be a fallgirl. Hmmmmm, interesting.

Back to my spot reading, LOL. Read a spot of the article now, read some later.

[LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger]

:agree:...I don't get why so many people are bothered by Show-Oberyn, he's supposedly bi and extremely sexual in the books. Pretty faithful to that so far, I'd say...

:agree: Seconded. Oberyn's sexuality has nothing to do with how badass he is. So he likes to fuck any pretty thing that comes across his path, whether it be male or female - which I think has come across pretty well. He is still one cool cat. Isn't that right, former regent Cersei?

For OP - in the interview I couldn't get past anything once the guy stated that Dany was the only good ruler. I think it is pretty clear that they have not read the books.

[SeanF]

I'm still reading the Rolling Stone interview and I do think just by the question about Joffrey's murder, it does seem the interviewer didn't read. He seems to be trying to pass off the idea that Joff died in the books long ago as definate knowledge, LOL. Although, I suppose that it could also be a case of just reading season by season to be up on information for the show, for the interview, and for a little extra knowledge. I don't get how the interviewer could possibly stop himself from continuing to read until the end of ADWD, but either way, I was wondering about these quotes from GRRM about the QoT, the killing of Joffrey, and the framing of Sansa.

In the books – and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal – the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa's hairnet, so that if anyone did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.

The reason I bring this up is because that's an interesting question of redemption. That's more like killing Hitler. Does the Queen of Thorns need redemption? Did the Queen of Thorns kill Hitler, or did she murder a 13-year-old boy? Or both? She had good reasons to remove Joffrey. Is it a case where the end justifies the means? I don't know. That's what I want the reader or viewer to wrestle with, and to debate.

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423#ixzz2zoxNmQUt

Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook

.

While, yes, the questions of redemption and the idea of killing Hitler are interesting, I'm wondering this: IF The Queen of Thorns did murder Joffrey with the express purpose of Sansa being the scapegoat if the poisoning should be found out, isn't that a question that concerns if the QoT should be forgiven or redeemed for that? Sansa might have wound up being executed if she hadn't escaped King's Landing. Not to mention, Sansa jumping from the frying pan of the capital to the fire of being stuck at the possible mercy of Littlefinger is something that should be weighed in itself. What about forgiveness or redemption for Lady Olenna if she really did intend that Sansa take the fall? Yes, she may have rid the world of a Hitler-type, but what about what she did to Sansa.

Being as I like both of them, Sansa and The QoT, I find that question to almost be the more interesting one. One that I would have to confront without a certain bias, being as I do like both of them. That, to me, is the more interesting question, although, GRRM did leave some wiggle room for QoT. He's presenting the idea as if we may learn that Sansa wasn't supposed to be a fallgirl. Hmmmmm, interesting.

Back to my spot reading, LOL. Read a spot of the article now, read some later.

Sansa would certainly have been executed if she'd been caught. Perhaps LF told the Q o T of his plans to rescue her; perhaps not. But, I've no doubt that Sansa was dispensable as far as the Q o T was concerned.