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[Book Spoilers] EP404 Discussion

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Don't know why people are going on with the rape in the background, it showed the atmosphere in Craster's keep, the mutineers don't have any qualms about raping. That's why there weren't any focus on the rape, to show that this is their daily routine and they're not making a big deal out of it since they've probably been doing this for weeks?months?

I think you're missing the point. If they had been there a few months, is there really a need to scream, "Fuck 'em till they're dead"? Why are the women being raped outside in the snow? None of this makes sense. This is a long term hostage situation, not a new development. Surely if a guy wants to rape another of them, they will wait until they're inside and not preparing food etc for them.

The scene makes it seem like they just got there in their behavior because that way there can be more naked women on screen.

And again, what purpose does it serve? We already know Westeros is brutal. We know these guys are villains. Why add more rape to the mix other than to show more breasts?

I feel like the next step in the chain is what is missing for the people arguing this. Rape is offensive to see portrayed for many people. Just like murder. So when a show has it, it should serve a purpose. It shouldn't just be so viewers can gawk at breasts week after week. What if the show started every week with someone randomly killing a child? Wouldn't that start to grate on your nerves and make you wonder why the hell they kept doing it?

aussie_ironborn, on 29 Apr 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

the books are harsh regarding rape etc, so is the show. this is westoros being brought alive, if u read the books surely u can stomach the show. its not harry potter

I'd call that a swing and a miss for reading comprehension.

Seriously, why is it ok for people to get into long involved discussions about the differences or what this means etc, but somehow people who think the amount of rape has become gratuitous and unnecessary just can't handle the "realism" of Westeros.

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I think you're missing the point. If they had been there a few months, is there really a need to scream, "Fuck 'em till they're dead"? Why are the women being raped outside in the snow? None of this makes sense. This is a long term hostage situation, not a new development. Surely if a guy wants to rape another of them, they will wait until they're inside and not preparing food etc for them.

The scene makes it seem like they just got there in their behavior because that way there can be more naked women on screen.

And again, what purpose does it serve? We already know Westeros is brutal. We know these guys are villains. Why add more rape to the mix other than to show more breasts?

I feel like the next step in the chain is what is missing for the people arguing this. Rape is offensive to see portrayed for many people. Just like murder. So when a show has it, it should serve a purpose. It shouldn't just be so viewers can gawk at breasts week after week. What if the show started every week with someone randomly killing a child? Wouldn't that start to grate on your nerves and make you wonder why the hell they kept doing it?

aussie_ironborn, on 29 Apr 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

I'd call that a swing and a miss for reading comprehension.

Seriously, why is it ok for people to get into long involved discussions about the differences or what this means etc, but somehow people who think the amount of rape has become gratuitous and unnecessary just can't handle the "realism" of Westeros.

Because they don't show rape every week and every time they do it does serve a purpose, you just dislike the purpose or you insist on pretending to be outraged to hop aboard the circlejerk of whiners and complainers. If it wasn't rape this episode it would be character assassination or some other flavor of the week thing to complain about. By the way I rewatched that episode and there's like 4 seconds of actual rape on the screen.

But on the flipside, did GRRM really need to tell us about Septa's being raped, their tits being chewed off, or half the things Shagwell says? We already knew Westeros was a brutal place, so he could've spared our sensitive sensibilities and cut that stuff out, surely? Not a great argument. Just because you want to find something to complain about, it doesn't mean it has no purpose. Everything is wonderful gospel and brilliance when GRRM does it, but when D&D do it it's redundant, gratuituous, distasteful, or whatever keyword you're all using these days to parrot each other's arguments.

Edited by DarkAndFullOfTurnips

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Finally made an account to say..



WTH JUST HAPPENED?!?!? ARE THEY EVEN TRYING TO FOLLOW THE BOOKS?? DID WE JUST SEE THE GREAT OTHER!?!??



SOMEONE PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME :stillsick:


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Finally made an account to say..

WTH JUST HAPPENED?!?!? ARE THEY EVEN TRYING TO FOLLOW THE BOOKS?? DID WE JUST SEE THE GREAT OTHER!?!??

SOMEONE PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME :stillsick:

I've always seen the Great Other as a god, not a physical being. Similar to R'hllor in that he/she may not exist at all, and we'll likely never get a confirmation one way or the other (much like in real life). So no, I do not think that was the Great Other. It may have been the leader of the Others, and I don't think it's ridiculous to assume that they have a leader, or a group of leaders. They're clearly an intelligent race of creatures that likely have some sort of greater motive behind their actions other than simply wiping out humanity.

And yes, they are still trying to follow the books. They just decided to have Bran do something interesting, since he really doesn't do much of consequence for most of books three and five and only has a couple of chapters in five at all. It's probably safe to assume that Bran is an important character, so giving him screen time is something that the showrunners would want to do, lest we forget about him. And if they continued to show him just being dragged around, viewers would start to grow increasingly bored like they did last season. This is a solution to that problem.

Not that this has anything to do with your quote above, but I also don't understand the people complaining about how this is a plot hole or a huge coincidence. The books are literally filled with ridiculous coincidences and characters improbably meeting. Cat and Tyrion. Tyrion and Jorah. Arya and Sam. Etc. It happens constantly in the books and people rarely complain. It's also hard to call it a plot hole until we see how it plays out next week.

Edited by briantw

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Context is everything. The guys at Crasters were sentenced to the Wall for (in their minds) unfair reasons or for being rapers, killers, or other brands of psychopath. They disobeyed guest right and killed their own LC. Some had been plotting an escape earlier on the Fist with a plan that included killing Brothers. I don't know why they kept Edd and the other guy or Ghost but they aren't exactly planners. They might have kept them as a zoo, maybe a torturing or tormenting zoo. The women were an exhibit of generations of learned helplessness. Also they were terrified of whatever Craster told them was out there and that's why they gave up the boy babies.

Cersei's rape was different. Jaime in the book had been doing nothing but trying to get home to Cersei, same as book. She was repelled by his missing hand - it symbolized he wasn't the same guy who had left, same as book. She gave into him in the book. In the show he overpowered her. Not book. Saying she was OK the next day proves it wasn't rape reveals ignorance. First, sex with Jaime wasn't a new thing. The force was. It was like a date rape or rape by a husband. Also there wasn't anything she could do about it at the time and even if she was inclined she can't even imagine using physical force for all her talk about wishing she were male. (Brienne must have awakened some disturbing thoughts in her BTW. Her excuse of being female suddenly looked a little fake). She got him in the books by sending him away. Likely that's how she'll get him now. She is getting even with him in the books for changing and that would also fit the show. Women get raped all the time and stuff it. People who say it wasn't rape - well even if she secretly wanted it, she never said Yes - and Book Jaime wouldn't have kept on without her expressed consent so the way they showed it, consensual or not in her secret thoughts, was not in character. Even of she secretly consented she fought him the whole time. Book Jaime takes No for an answer.

Edited by rmholt

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Finally made an account to say..

WTH JUST HAPPENED?!?!? ARE THEY EVEN TRYING TO FOLLOW THE BOOKS?? DID WE JUST SEE THE GREAT OTHER!?!??

SOMEONE PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME :stillsick:

I heard people saying the White Walker Maul scene was from TWOW...maybe the prologue? I can't find the source that though.

And yes, they're definitely following the books. They know how it ends. They know they have to get from point A to point B. The books may be taking the meandering, scenic route, and the show may be taking the highway, but I think where the story ends will be quite similar.

Edited by Chebyshov

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I heard people saying the White Walker Maul scene was from TWOW...maybe the prologue? I can't find the source that though.

There's no source. It's just speculation. Personally, I think it's more likely that D&D just asked Martin what the Others do with the babies they take from Craster and decided to show it.

Of course, maybe the prologue in Winds will be Benjen. I tend to think he'll appear again at some point since people keep mentioning him. That would be as good a place as any.

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Finally made an account to say..

WTH JUST HAPPENED?!?!? ARE THEY EVEN TRYING TO FOLLOW THE BOOKS?? DID WE JUST SEE THE GREAT OTHER!?!??

SOMEONE PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME :stillsick:

You'll fit in perfectly on this board.....

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But on the flipside, did GRRM really need to tell us about Septa's being raped, their tits being chewed off, or half the things Shagwell says? We already knew Westeros was a brutal place, so he could've spared our sensitive sensibilities and cut that stuff out, surely? Not a great argument. Just because you want to find something to complain about, it doesn't mean it has no purpose. Everything is wonderful gospel and brilliance when GRRM does it, but when D&D do it it's redundant, gratuituous, distasteful, or whatever keyword you're all using these days to parrot each other's arguments.

Actually the reason it is OK when Martin does it is because he has gone out of his way to actually write believable and meaningful female characters along with this entire story and world. When Martin does it, I give him the benefit of the doubt that he wants to do something important with the story or demonstrate something about the world.

The show writers? Not so much. Not since they've made two consensual sex acts rape.

There's no source. It's just speculation. Personally, I think it's more likely that D&D just asked Martin what the Others do with the babies they take from Craster and decided to show it.

Of course, maybe the prologue in Winds will be Benjen. I tend to think he'll appear again at some point since people keep mentioning him. That would be as good a place as any.

I agree. I really think those were just Craster's sons. Interestingly HBO had the recap saying the Night King for a while and changed it to the other. I see two options

1) That was the NK and they messed up putting it in the recap. So they immediately took it down.

2) It wasn't the NK and they messed up putting it in the recap. So they immediately took it down.

I lean towards two at the moment just because we saw that there were many other WW dressed the same way. Also I want CH to be the NK.

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I didn't like that the WW looked like the devil.

Agree. That leaves everyone to think that they are pure evil. And there is no reason for their survival outside of killing humans.

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Agree. That leaves everyone to think that they are pure evil. And there is no reason for their survival outside of killing humans.

I thought the "horns" were supposed to be like a crown?

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I thought the "horns" were supposed to be like a crown?

Maybe they will show more of their point of view, but I wouldn't be surprised of we don't see them anymore this season, well besides when Bran reaches his destination.

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I think you're missing the point. If they had been there a few months, is there really a need to scream, "Fuck 'em till they're dead"? Why are the women being raped outside in the snow? None of this makes sense. This is a long term hostage situation, not a new development. Surely if a guy wants to rape another of them, they will wait until they're inside and not preparing food etc for them.

The scene makes it seem like they just got there in their behavior because that way there can be more naked women on screen.

Thank you for posting this. I didn't understand the complaints people had about the scene, beyond rape and sexual abuse obviously being a tough thing to watch, but I hadn't thought about it from this perspective.

I guess my mind was too busy dwelling on Karl drinking wine from the Old Bear's skull. :ack:

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I'm only halfway through the comments and already kind of disturbed that people who had a problem with the rape scene at Craster's are getting a lot of hate. One commenter on winteriscoming.com said something like "Oh, the feminists are not gonna like that rape scene". WTF? What on earth does one have to do with the other? People who feel the show is too insensitive on the subject are told to go read Harry Potter and stop watching. Again, WTF? Is that what came out of the crypt scene last week? Are there no limits just because "it happened in the books"? In the books, children are raped and mutilated - should we get that onscreen as well? Had Rorge done to Arya what he said he'd do, should we have seen this in close-up?



Nobody argues that the show should not show rape or sex - but it has to serve a purpose to show it, it should be narratologically necessary. If it's not, it's showing rape for the sake of rape, which is problematic. The scene at Craster's was stylising rape in a very uncomfortable way, showing it like this served no purpose. I like that the show doesn't shy away from nudity - but it's getting to a point where it's becoming ridiculous. I sometimes feel that HBO is a teenager testing its limits – which at least for people used to European TV and cinema seems infantile and pathetic - a lame attempt at provocation.


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Nobody argues that the show should not show rape or sex - but it has to serve a purpose to show it, it should be narratologically necessary. If it's not, it's showing rape for the sake of rape, which is problematic. The scene at Craster's was stylising rape in a very uncomfortable way, showing it like this served no purpose. I like that the show doesn't shy away from nudity - but it's getting to a point where it's becoming ridiculous. I sometimes feel that HBO is a teenager testing its limits – which at least for people used to European TV and cinema seems infantile and pathetic - a lame attempt at provocation.

I think the flippant way in which rape was tossed in served to vilify the mutineers more, and raise the stakes for next episode. But it was so absolutely not needed. They so overdid painting these guys as "bad." I mean, seriously, drinking from Old Bear's skull? Tormenting Ghost with water? We already hated these men...they're mutineers after all.

It was disgusting and voyeuristic. Maybe they thought they needed to make everything really explicitly terrible (and "realistic" to how the mutineers behaved), but this was so overboard. I defended the show heavily on this subject last week; I was very disappointed by this moment.

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The whitewashing of Cersei’s character from the first season of the series is now in jeopardy of nullifying any reason that the High Sparrow would have to bring Cersei to trial. In the books, the HS has knowledge of Cersei being responsible for



Conniving with Lancel to distract Robert during the boar hunt


Having Robert’s bastard children killed


Having Osney Kettleblack kill the High Septon


Conniving with Osney Kettleblack to say he was Margaery’s lover


Conniving with Osney that after his trial he temporarily goes to the Wall to kill Jon



The accusations that Cersei is on trial for: regicide, deicide and incest. Regicide and deicide are two of which the HS has witnesses for. If the series eliminates killing the High Septon, there wouldn’t be the new High Sparrow, the Faith Militant, a reason for a “Walk of Shame,” or a trail for Cersei.

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As distasteful as the mutineer's rape scene was, it does get them over as antagonists in a major way. I want to see Jon and his crew kill them all SO bad right now. I imagine every show fan on the planet suddenly has those guys at the top of their GOT hit list.

This ^^ is the purpose is serves. We can sit here and debate all day about the Jaime/Cersei scene. That's a legitimate argument.

The one at Craster's in pretty clear cut. The mutineers are rapists, murderers, thieves, etc. and the show runners want us to HATE them. These pathetic scum who are treating these women this way, as a viewer I want to now see them get obliterated. That's why they had to put it in there. If all we saw is these guys sitting around eating with the women just sitting their quietly, there is no WAY the audience is going to reach the level of hate for these guys as intended. When the questioning of rape in the show is happening we need to separate these instances.

I think just because we saw it very distastefully done last week with Jaime/Cersei people can't separate the context anymore. Now it's just, 'There's a rape scene, showrunners are perverts who just need to hit their nude quota, terribly done'. Clearly, that's not the case in this one particular instance.

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Actually the reason it is OK when Martin does it is because he has gone out of his way to actually write believable and meaningful female characters along with this entire story and world. When Martin does it, I give him the benefit of the doubt that he wants to do something important with the story or demonstrate something about the world.

The show writers? Not so much. Not since they've made two consensual sex acts rape.

I agree. I really think those were just Craster's sons. Interestingly HBO had the recap saying the Night King for a while and changed it to the other. I see two options

1) That was the NK and they messed up putting it in the recap. So they immediately took it down.

2) It wasn't the NK and they messed up putting it in the recap. So they immediately took it down.

I lean towards two at the moment just because we saw that there were many other WW dressed the same way. Also I want CH to be the NK.

That's the first time I've thought of CH as the NK. I've personally always leaned towards him being Benjen Stark, but your idea is intriguing. Perhaps the CotF have found a way for the NK to redeem himself for his behaviour 8,000 years ago (see the bottom of the wiki page for the timeline of the NW's Lord Commanders)?

Can someone remind me why Alliser Thorne isn't training the men?

I'm pretty sure that Mormont (in the show) didn't send Thorne to KL with Flowers' moving hand in a jar, in order to provide proof of the NW's dire need to have assistance from the Iron Throne.

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It was disgusting and voyeuristic. Maybe they thought they needed to make everything really explicitly terrible (and "realistic" to how the mutineers behaved), but this was so overboard. I defended the show heavily on this subject last week; I was very disappointed by this moment.

Thanks, glad some people agree on this. In season one, so many scenes were pretty subtle but very powerful, and they established characters and atmosphere well with simple moments. Now one extreme is following another and the storytelling is neglected because the pace is increasing so much. It worries me.

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