The History of the Wheel of Time (aka WoT's Christopher Tolkienizing)

[mgambino]

I have to ask... are there any notes that give a clue as to what parts of the final book were entirely Sanderson's invention? I have a hard time believing that a few of things that happened in AMOL would have if RJ had been alive to write it.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Oh I absolutely understood that Cadsuane was closer to Egwene than Egwene was to Nynaeve. What I meant was that the upper reaches weren't very widely spread out. Like, Egwene isn't half Nynaeve's strength, closer to 15-20% weaker than her. I know you can't give numbers, but it'd be great to know if I'm in the right ball park.

Interesting. So there's a 33 point full scale, with Aes Sedai occupying 21. I'm guessing there are both women weaker than and stronger than Aes Sedai occupying the other 12 levels?

RJ once said that about 62.5% of the channeling population would be strong enough to be raised Aes Sedai. So a few levels for that strength range, for women ranging from Morghase to Sorelia to Alise, etc. Then we have 21 levels up to Moiraine/Romanda, etc. and then a few for the upper echelons?

Makes sense. Wonder where Alivia is. That was a major point of debate too.

On the Egwene vs. Nynaeve combat post, of all things.

Wish I'd known he was coming and there was a WoT meet in Chicago. I'd have made the 3 hour drive.

I can't make a long post now, but will later.

What Terez has confirmed thus far is that he didn't say that Nynaeve and Egwene are close in strength, and that Nynaeve is actually a number of levels above Egwene - depending on level of potential reached. Given that Egwene for most of the series is at a higher level of potential than Nynaeve, this would mean that the gap between the two would only grow bigger as the series progressed and Nynaeve came closer to her full potential.

Hence, it is quite clear that Nynaeve is quite some distance above Egwene, when both of their full potentials are reached.

Secondly, Terez confirmed that there are 12 additional levels above level 21, on which Siuan and Moiraine are located, and that everyone above Moiraine level falls on these 12 levels, with Lanfear at level 33.

I will go into more detail later, but this is what stands out.

[SilentRoamer]

I have to ask... are there any notes that give a clue as to what parts of the final book were entirely Sanderson's invention? I have a hard time believing that a few of things that happened in AMOL would have if RJ had been alive to write it.

I remember reading an article that stated all of the Androl sections will have been written by Sanderson as Androl is a character entirely designed by Sanderson.

I actually really liked Androl and his Talent for gateways - I know a lot of people did not care for him.

I also think Sanderson confirmed that Jordan wrote the entire final section although I am not certain. When I was reading it I could sometimes feel a shift in tone and realized I had just read a pure Jordan or pure Sanderson part.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Terez - when you say that Lanfear is at #1 on the global list, does that mean she is the strongest human channeler ever? Stronger even than Lews Therin/Rand and Ishamael? If so, is it due to an Aelfinn enhancement of her Power?

[fionwe1987]

I can't make a long post now, but will later.

What Terez has confirmed thus far is that he didn't say that Nynaeve and Egwene are close in strength, and that Nynaeve is actually a number of levels above Egwene - depending on level of potential reached. Given that Egwene for most of the series is at a higher level of potential than Nynaeve, this would mean that the gap between the two would only grow bigger as the series progressed and Nynaeve came closer to her full potential.

While we can be certain there is a clear gap, the question is how much. None of the women have been confirmed as having reached their potential. All we know is Egwene was closer to hers than Elayne or Aviendha. Wrt to Nynaeve, there are several confounding factors. She was a wilder, but also one for a long time. She was stronger than anyone in the Tower the day she joined, but we don't know how much stronger. By book 4, she was as strong as the weakest Foresaken, Moghedien. We don't know the gap between Moghedien and Nynaeve's full strength, so we really don't know how much of her potential she was at, at that point.

Hence, it is quite clear that Nynaeve is quite some distance above Egwene, when both of their full potentials are reached.

Yes. By how much remains a question.

Secondly, Terez confirmed that there are 12 additional levels above level 21, on which Siuan and Moiraine are located, and that everyone above Moiraine level falls on these 12 levels, with Lanfear at level 33.

Actually, no. 21 levels are for Aes Sedai. 37.5% of the female population is too weak to be Aes Sedai, and we have several characters (some pretty significant) who are in this range. They likely occupy some of those extra 12 levels too.

Terez - when you say that Lanfear is at #1 on the global list, does that mean she is the strongest human channeler ever? Stronger even than Lews Therin/Rand and Ishamael? If so, is it due to an Aelfinn enhancement of her Power?

I'm pretty sure men and women don't have the same list. She's likely as strong as Rand in terms of effective strength, but can draw slightly less of the Power since men are stronger than women, but women make up by being more dexterous/efficient with the Power.

[Free Northman Reborn]

While we can be certain there is a clear gap, the question is how much. None of the women have been confirmed as having reached their potential. All we know is Egwene was closer to hers than Elayne or Aviendha. Wrt to Nynaeve, there are several confounding factors. She was a wilder, but also one for a long time. She was stronger than anyone in the Tower the day she joined, but we don't know how much stronger. By book 4, she was as strong as the weakest Foresaken, Moghedien. We don't know the gap between Moghedien and Nynaeve's full strength, so we really don't know how much of her potential she was at, at that point.

Yes. By how much remains a question.

Actually, no. 21 levels are for Aes Sedai. 37.5% of the female population is too weak to be Aes Sedai, and we have several characters (some pretty significant) who are in this range. They likely occupy some of those extra 12 levels too.

I'm pretty sure men and women don't have the same list. She's likely as strong as Rand in terms of effective strength, but can draw slightly less of the Power since men are stronger than women, but women make up by being more dexterous/efficient with the Power.

It was stated that RJ had an original 21 point list. And only when stronger channelers than Moiraine came along, did he implement additional levels above 21.

So RJ had a list with 21 levels, which had Moiraine and Siuan at the very top. Everyone who fell below them was on that list.

Then he had another 33 level list, with everyone above Moiraine occupying the additional levels above 21.

What we do not know - and probably never will - is whether the new levels above level 21 are on a similar scale per level as the lower ones. They probably aren't, given all the evidence from the books.

For example, Rand would be equivalent to a level 33, but he is able to break free from three Aes Sedai. Logain can break free from almost 6. When you are shielded your shield can be held by someone significantly weaker than you. So for Rand to break free from 3, he must be equal in strength to much more than 3. Similarly with Logain who came close to breaking free from 6.

So it would seem that the levels above 21 - which came about later, solely to accommodate super class channelers, might well operate to a different scale than the ones that were intitially designed to accommodate all the Aes Sedai.

The Bell Curve would actually fit perfectly with the 21 point scale - excluding the later additions up to level 33.

Because we know that on a bell curve distribution the strongest channeler would be exactly twice the strength of the average channeler. So on the 21 point list, that would mean that Siuan would be exactly twice as strong as the average woman.

But we know from comments in Books 6-8 that Siuan's former strength is only about half again the strength of the average Aes Sedai. This would fit with a Bell Curve where the average Aes Sedai is stronger than the average woman, because the population of weakest women are not included amongs the Aes Sedai sample.

Hence, what this would in effect mean, is that if Siuan at level 21 is the strongest woman, then the average Aes Sedai would be around level 14, while the average woman would be around level 10.5.

So to fit the Bell Curve to the 21 point list, you would have:

21 - Siuan

20

19

18

17

16

15

14 - Average Aes Sedai (stronger than the average woman, due to the Tower's selection policies)

13

12

11

10 - Average woman (actually at strength 10.5)

9

8 - Siuan after stilling (just above one third her former strength)

7 - Daigian (either at one third of Moiraine and Siuan's original strength, or maybe one level below this)

6

5

4

3

2

1 - Morgase - somewhere between 0 and 1, probably 0.01 to be precise.

The super channelers then seem to follow a different scale, and cover levels 22-33. These levels don't necessarily cover the same range of power as each of the levels below 21, but are rather used to signify an order of strength between the super powerful channelers, from Bodewyn, Cadsuane and upwards.

[sologdin]

wert, you're killing me. if WoT re-urged 3.5 volumes of LotR as 14 volumes, one can only conclude that 13 volumes of HoME will be re-urged as 52 volumes of HoWoT.

[Terez]

For the record, I don't think there are any plans to publish RJ's notes in print. Online, maybe. One day. We will see.

Oh I absolutely understood that Cadsuane was closer to Egwene than Egwene was to Nynaeve. What I meant was that the upper reaches weren't very widely spread out. Like, Egwene isn't half Nynaeve's strength, closer to 15-20% weaker than her. I know you can't give numbers, but it'd be great to know if I'm in the right ball park.

Well, RJ didn't really go into the distance between each level, whether it's linear or anything like that - not in the notes that I saw, anyway.

Interesting. So there's a 33 point full scale, with Aes Sedai occupying 21.

No, no...a 33 point Aes Sedai scale (which goes to 54 if you count Moiraine who is no longer strong enough to test on her own, but still Aes Sedai). The full scale ranges from 1 to at least 66, going both above and below the Aes Sedai scale. (I think it goes beyond 66; that is Moiraine again, post-Ghenjei.)

I have to ask... are there any notes that give a clue as to what parts of the final book were entirely Sanderson's invention? I have a hard time believing that a few of things that happened in AMOL would have if RJ had been alive to write it.

There are some notes on that but Brandon has been fairly open about that at book signings and the like; check out the who wrote what? tag in the interview database. There are a few things he purposefully held back which I won't speak on; otherwise feel free to ask about specific points.

Terez - when you say that Lanfear is at #1 on the global list, does that mean she is the strongest human channeler ever? Stronger even than Lews Therin/Rand and Ishamael? If so, is it due to an Aelfinn enhancement of her Power?

She is as strong as is possible for a female to be. Sharina's potential probably equals hers; we don't know any others at level 1.

[fionwe1987]

Well, RJ didn't really go into the distance between each level, whether it's linear or anything like that - not in the notes that I saw, anyway.

Interesting. Not surprising, I guess, since he cared about where people stood with each other, not how a duel would play out (by the end, they all had angreal, save Egwene who had a sa'angreal, so their native strengths were pretty pointless).

No, no...a 33 point Aes Sedai scale (which goes to 54 if you count Moiraine who is no longer strong enough to test on her own, but still Aes Sedai). The full scale ranges from 1 to

at least 66, going both above and below the Aes Sedai scale. (I think it goes beyond 66; that is Moiraine again, post-Ghenjei.)

WOW! And I take this to mean Moiraine after her time with the Finns was as weak or weaker than even Morghase? That's one mighty awesome angreal Lanfear was using then.

She is as strong as is possible for a female to be. Sharina's potential probably equals hers; we don't know any others at level 1.

HA! Several heads in wotmania would have exploded at the thought of anyone equaling Lanfear. I never firmly defended this, but I'd always thought it was a possibility (the Aes Sedai think Sharina might be as strong as it was possible to be, and most everyone dismissed it as a sign of Aes Sedai knowing nothing).

But 66 levels. No wonder Brandon failed spectacularly with keeping the OP strength stuff in order. RJ seems to have had an incredibly detailed view of all this. Hopefully we'll see more of this in the encyclopedia.

[fionwe1987]

For example, Rand would be equivalent to a level 33, but he is able to break free from three Aes Sedai. Logain can break free from almost 6. When you are shielded your shield can be held by someone significantly weaker than you. So for Rand to break free from 3, he must be equal in strength to much more than 3. Similarly with Logain who came close to breaking free from 6.

Not true. Rand actually broke free of four sisters, none of whom would be weak since they were sent on a fairly dangerous mission. From KoD, we know custom is that weaker sisters are assigned the job of holding male channeler's shields. Logain probably had the weakest sisters in Salidar holding him. Further, it is far easier to shield someone of the same sex than the other.

Thus, Nynaeve was held by two weak sisters who can't even Travel in PoD. But two middlling sisters, Alanna and Verin, were unable to shield Rand. Yet Nynaeve's at least the ballpark of Rand's strength. You thus cannot take shielding to be a way to measure strength exactly.

In LoC, for example, LTT tells Rand that even with his angreal, he wouldn't be able to shield seven Aes Sedai (again, none of those was weak, Verin being the weakest in that group). Does this mean Rand plus his fairly powerful angreal is weaker than seven middling to strong Aes Sedai? We'll probably never know. All we know is Elayne describes an angreal that more than doubles her strength as weak, and Rand's was powerful enough to let him barely hold on against Lanfear plus her almost-sa'angreal bracelet. QED: Shielding isn't an exact measure of strength, especially across genders.

The Bell Curve would actually fit perfectly with the 21 point scale - excluding the later additions up to level 33.

The Bell Curve includes all channelers, not just Aes Sedai.

[Terez]

There was a big debate over Cadsuane. Apparently RJ was adamant that Cadsuane was more powerful than anyone bar only the Forsaken, Nynaeve and Sharina. Eventually someone (Harriet?) pointed out that the Tower had been clear that Elayne and Egwene had been the most powerful novices in a thousand years. Whilst Cadsuane's age and the Aes Sedai forgetting about her in the heat of the moment might pass for an explanation for that, RJ seems to have decided not to have contradicted the earlier books and down-powered Cadsuane to just under Elayne and Egwene, but still a bit above the 21-point scale.

For the record, I'm only guessing about what happened with Cadsuane. All we know is that, in some places in the notes, RJ had her a level above Egwene/Elayne at full potential, and then in later notes he had her a level below them. Either he himself remembered that quote, or someone on Team Jordan pointed it out to him. Probably the latter; he doesn't seem to have gone back to what he had previously written very often after he hired Maria. :) Or at least, after she asked him to let her help with continuity. At first she was hired to help with fan mail. Anyway, it was an easy error to fix because he hadn't yet made it in the books. It's just good to know that he imagined her being stronger than all the supergirls except Nynaeve, though in the end it doesn't matter much because Cadsuane didn't interact with the other supergirls much.

WOW! And I take this to mean Moiraine after her time with the Finns was as weak or weaker than even Morghase? That's one mighty awesome angreal Lanfear was using then.

I'm not sure about Moiraine vs Morgase. Like I said, at least 66. I didn't look for Morgase's strength, or Sorilea's.

HA! Several heads in wotmania would have exploded at the thought of anyone equaling Lanfear. I never firmly defended this, but I'd always thought it was a possibility (the Aes Sedai think Sharina might be as strong as it was possible to be, and most everyone dismissed it as a sign of Aes Sedai knowing nothing).

I think channelers of that level are just rare; Lanfear doesn't have any kind of exalted place in the story that she should have a level all to herself. With over 1000 recruits for the Tower, and a few thousand other female channelers running around in the story, it would have been odd if another one didn't show.

[fionwe1987]

For the record, I'm only guessing about what happened with Cadsuane. All we know is that, in some places in the notes, RJ had her a level above Egwene/Elayne at full potential, and then in later notes he had her a level below them. Either he himself remembered that quote, or someone on Team Jordan pointed it out to him. Probably the latter; he doesn't seem to have gone back to what he had previously written very often after he hired Maria. :) Or at least, after she asked him to let her help with continuity. At first she was hired to help with fan mail. Anyway, it was an easy error to fix because he hadn't yet made it in the books. It's just good to know that he imagined her being stronger than all the supergirls except Nynaeve, though in the end it doesn't matter much because Cadsuane didn't interact with the other supergirls much.

Yeah this makes sense. Also, I'm sure there's a glossary entry which says Egwene/Elayne are stronger, but not by much. Also, I doubt it mattered much because all these people had ways to boost their strength anyway.

I'm not sure about Moiraine vs Morgase. Like I said,

at least 66. I didn't look for Morgase's strength, or Sorilea's.

It would be interesting to see when we get the encyclopedia. Moiraine has no difficulty reaching the source like Morghase, but I wonder how much one can pull relative to the other. Waving a handkerchief was hard for Morgase. Not sure if Moiraine was that weak.

I think channelers of that level are just rare; Lanfear doesn't have any kind of exalted place in the story that she should have a level all to herself. With over 1000 recruits for the Tower, and a few thousand other female channelers running around in the story, it would have been odd if another one didn't show.

There's a Graendal quote which says that her own strength was very rare, and stronger than her incredibly so. But I totally agree on Lanfear. There's no reason for her to be singularly strong.

[Free Northman Reborn]

For the record, I don't think there are any plans to publish RJ's notes in print. Online, maybe. One day. We will see.

Well, RJ didn't really go into the distance between each level, whether it's linear or anything like that - not in the notes that I saw, anyway.

No, no...a 33 point Aes Sedai scale (which goes to 54 if you count Moiraine who is no longer strong enough to test on her own, but still Aes Sedai). The full scale ranges from 1 to at least 66, going both above and below the Aes Sedai scale. (I think it goes beyond 66; that is Moiraine again, post-Ghenjei.)

There are some notes on that but Brandon has been fairly open about that at book signings and the like; check out the

She is as strong as is possible for a female to be. Sharina's potential probably equals hers; we don't know any others at level 1.

Terez this is incredibly interesting information indeed. So before I make further extrapolations based on this, I just want to make sure I understand you correctly.

1. Initially RJ had a 21 point list, including ONLY Aes Sedai. This list had Daigian (the weakest Aes Sedai by some margin) at the bottom, and Siuan/Moiraine at the top.

2. Then the supergirls, Cadsuane, Egwene etc. arrived on the scene, so RJ expanded this to a 33 level list, with 12 levels above the highest level on the previous list. Here I am a bit confused. You said at first that the 33 level list included all the more powerful channelers above Siuan. But in your last post you clarified this by saying that it was an Aes Sedai list ONLY. Does this mean that only Aes Sedai appeared on it? Meaning no female Forsaken or other powerful channelers?

3. Next, RJ had to expand the list downward, down to Moiraine's post-Genjei level. You say this made the AES SEDAI list 54 levels long, with Moiraine at the bottom and I presume the strongest Aes Sedai at the top. I understand this to mean that the distance from level 33 (Daigian) down to 54 (Moiraine) is another 21 levels.

4. So where do the additional 12 levels come in then, to take this 54 level list up to a 66 level list? Are these an additional 12 levels on top of the strongest Super Aes Sedai (Egwene's level)? Meaning 12 more levels above Egwene? Because the supergirls are now surely part of the 54 level list, which was already an expansion of the original 21 level list.

In other words, on the 66 level list (I know you said AT LEAST 66, but that's the highest number you've given so far), how many levels are above Siuan's pre-Stilling level, and how many are below the weakest Aes Sedai (Daigian's) level?

My understanding, from what you've said, is that it goes something like this:

At the very bottom you have Moiraine at level 66.

21 Levels above her you have Daigian - the weakest Aes Sedai to pass the test. So Daigian is at level 45.

21 levels above Daigian, you have pre-Stilling Siuan, who is at level 24.

Then you have 12 levels of super Aes Sedai up to level 12.

Then you have 12 more levels of Forsaken class channelers, going up to Lanfear at level 1.

This gives you the 66 levels you referred to.

Is that more or less what you are saying?

[Terez]

1. I'm assuming that RJ started out with a 21-scale for Aes Sedai and then expanded it to 33, but I'm not sure. All I know is what he said in public (21) and what's in his notes (33).

2. The stronger folks don't seem to be the impetus for that expansion because they are off the scale, indicated by +x on the 33-scale. It's the 66(?)-scale that includes the people off the scales (without the +).

3. Moiraine is 13/1 pre-Ghenjei, and 66/54 post-Ghenjei and sans angreal. Normally the Aes Sedai scale (x of y/x) only goes to 33, but Moiraine is an exception because her power was reduced to a level that wouldn't be allowed to test, but she is already Aes Sedai. Even Siuan wasn't reduced that low.

4. It should be clear from Moiraine's numbers how high the list goes above the "top" Aes Sedai level. (I doubt there is a level 0.) Daighan is indeed 45/33, but Siuan pre-stilling was of course 13/1 like Moiraine.

Again, perhaps 66 is not the very bottom. It's not very clear, but I doubt the scale would go much further than that.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1. I'm assuming that RJ started out with a 21-scale for Aes Sedai and then expanded it to 33, but I'm not sure. All I know is what he said in public (21) and what's in his notes (33).

2. The stronger folks don't seem to be the impetus for that expansion because they are off the scale, indicated by +x on the 33-scale. It's the 66(?)-scale that includes the people off the scales (without the +).

3. Moiraine is 13/1 pre-Ghenjei, and 66/54 post-Ghenjei and sans angreal. Normally the Aes Sedai scale (x of y/x) only goes to 33, but Moiraine is an exception because her power was reduced to a level that wouldn't be allowed to test, but she is already Aes Sedai. Even Siuan wasn't reduced that low.

4. It should be clear from Moiraine's numbers how high the list goes above the "top" Aes Sedai level. (I doubt there is a level 0.) Daighan is indeed 45/33, but Siuan pre-stilling was of course 13/1 like Moiraine.

Again, perhaps 66 is not the very bottom. It's not very clear, but I doubt the scale would go much further than that.

OK, I've rewritten my reply as I've figured out most of what you have explained above.

Here's a question: You show pre-Genjei Moiraine as 13/1. I assume that means that she was at level 1 on the 21 level list, and at level 13 on the 33 level list.

You also say, VERY interestingly, that none of the more powerful channelers are on the 33 level list, as they are "off the scale".

So the question is, if there are 12 levels above Moiraine on the 33 level list, and yet the stronger channelers are NOT on this list, then who is at the top of the 33 level list?

[Free Northman Reborn]

OK, so based on the information as it currently stands - subject to further correction from Terez, I have re-created the 66-level One Power list for all female channelers.

I'm not going to put the full list down here, as it is in Excel, but I will highlight the key individuals confirmed to be at specific levels on that list.

Confirmed at the bottom on Level 66 is post-Genjei Moiraine.

Confirmed as the weakest full Aes Sedai is Daigian, at Level 57.

Confirmed as the strongest normal Aes Sedai, is pre-Genjei Moiraine, at Level 37.

Occupying the 12 levels above Moiraine, are the super Aes Sedai, the likes of Cadsuane, Bodewyen, Egwene etc, with Egwene likely occupying Level 25 - 12 levels above Moiraine.

Then we have the Channelers between Egwene and Lanfear's strength covering Level 26- Level 1. Lanfear is at Level 1.

EDIT

This hinges on who is at the top of the 33 level list. If it is Moiraine, then the top levels condense a bit. If it is Egwene, then they expand.

From Terez's last post, it isn't quite clear whether Moiraine was top of the 21 point list, with 12 Aes Sedai levels added above her to get to the 33 level list, or whether Moiraine remained at the top of the 33 level list, with 12 more levels added below her instead.

[Werthead]

The notes are - or will be once they sort them out again - publicly available if you physically go to the university in Charleston, so someone could certainly write a book about them within the limits of free use. I believe that Brandon is in favour of the notes being released in book form one day (or at least online), whilst Harriet is sceptical. My guess is that if they do see the light of day, it won't be for a few years.

What I REALLY want to know - were there any notes on Nakomi?

Only the fact that Nakomi appears in the RJ-written epilogue, so she wasn't Sanderson's invention. Brandon also said he found something 'deep inside' the notes that justified her appearing to Aviendha in Rhuidean as well.

Terez has been referencing an interesting theory that Nakomi is Tigraine and both are Calian the Chooser, one of the Heroes of the Horn, whilst her brother Luc is/was Shivan. Their links to Tel'aran'rhiod allow them both to do the things they do and also explains some of the bigger metahistory of the series (pretty much all of the immediate action in the series stems from Tigraine's choices). There's not a huge amount in the notes to support it, but it's an interesting idea (especially as Calian and Shivan are explicitly called out in ACoS as having been at Falme; it'd be interesting to see if Luc can be 'called out' whilst merged with Isam).

I have to ask... are there any notes that give a clue as to what parts of the final book were entirely Sanderson's invention? I have a hard time believing that a few of things that happened in AMOL would have if RJ had been alive to write it.

There's the things we know - Androl was an RJ creation (he appears briefly in KoD) but Sanderson expanded him; the stuff with the portals and the cannons - but the notes do expand on others. As said, Caemlyn was going to be the sight of the Last Battle; Rand's forces would have engaged the Shadowspawn in the Borderlands but been pushed back a thousand miles to make a last stand there. The problem is that someone couldn't make sense of how this would work so it was changed to Caemlyn's destruction and the Last Battle (or the Battle at the Field of Merrilor, if you count the whole campaign as being the Last Battle) being separate engagements. I think that was a Team Jordan decision, coming from an outline of AMoL put together between RJ getting ill and Sanderson taking over. The notes also suggest that the Seanchan joining Team Rand was originally a much more straightforward affair, and the complications were added (presumably by Sanderson). I think that was a definite improvement, given the total diametric opposition of the Seanchan to the others on Rand's side.

Otherwise quite a lot of the final book is in there. What is a bit more interesting is that the AMoL outline is pretty much AMoL as we got it: the bridging material from KoD to the start of AMoL is missing. Whether there was another file for that or that's in the dictated notes, we don't know. It certainly makes RJ's claim that TGS/ToM/AMoL would have been one book rather doubtful, unless he was planning to start AMoL in media res and feature Rand's epiphany and the Seanchan attack on the White Tower in flashback, which I think was completely out of the question.

[Ran]

I don't suppose the notes revealed whether Gareth Bryne and Rodel Ituralde were really envisioned as blademasters or not? Always annoyed me, the notion that Great Captain must equal great swordsman. Especially when we'd gone a bunch of novels without that detail ever once being mentioned for Bryne.

[fionwe1987]

I don't suppose the notes revealed whether Gareth Bryne and Rodel Ituralde were really envisioned as blademasters or not? Always annoyed me, the notion that Great Captain must equal great swordsman. Especially when we'd gone a bunch of novels without that detail ever once being mentioned for Bryne.

There were always hints about Bryne, since he trained two men who became blademasters. Ituralde was a weird inclusion. Bashere was not a Blademaster, IIRC. So it isn't like all the Great Captains were.

1. I'm assuming that RJ started out with a 21-scale for Aes Sedai and then expanded it to 33, but I'm not sure. All I know is what he said in public (21) and what's in his notes (33).

2. The stronger folks don't seem to be the impetus for that expansion because they are off the scale, indicated by +x on the 33-scale. It's the 66(?)-scale that includes the people off the scales (without the +).

3. Moiraine is 13/1 pre-Ghenjei, and 66/54 post-Ghenjei and sans angreal. Normally the Aes Sedai scale (x of y/x) only goes to 33, but Moiraine is an exception because her power was reduced to a level that wouldn't be allowed to test, but she is already Aes Sedai. Even Siuan wasn't reduced that low.

4. It should be clear from Moiraine's numbers how high the list goes above the "top" Aes Sedai level. (I doubt there is a level 0.) Daighan is indeed 45/33, but Siuan pre-stilling was of course 13/1 like Moiraine.

Again, perhaps 66 is not the very bottom. It's not very clear, but I doubt the scale would go much further than that.

So, to sum up, the 21 levels of Aes Sedai expanded to 33. Moiraine/Siuan/Elaida would be on the top of either. The Aes Sedai list, however, was expanded to include weaker and stronger channelers, to roughly 66 levels, with 66 being Moiraine after Ghenjei. In the new list, 12 levels have been added above Elaida, making Elaida sit at level 13 on the 66 level list, and Lanfear at 1. Thus, Daigian moves from 33 to 45, meaning more levels were added below the Aes Sedai to accommodate Moiraine, then were added above them to accommodate the Foresaken and the Wondergirls.

Given all that, I'll roughly predict the upper echelons are so:

1- Lanfear, Sharina

2- Alivia, Cyndane

3- Graendal, Nynaeve, Semirhage (?)

4- Mesaana, Semirhage (?), Talaan

5- Moghedien

6- Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha (at full potential)

7- Cadsuane, Bode

8- Meilyn

9- Therava

10- Kereane

11- ?

12- ?

13- Elaida, Siuan (old), Moiraine (old), Romanda, Lelaine

We'll see if this list holds up next year, I guess.

[mgambino]

Do we know if RJ had planned any major character deaths that didn't happen, or if Sanderson offed any characters that RJ didn't plan on killing? I'd be more specific, but I don't know to use spoiler tags and I don't want to accidentally spoil anything if I use them wrong.