Heresy 118 The Shadows

[Harlan]

But why fight at all? Why not give Ser Waymar a 'hello nod' and be on their way? I'm very familiar with the prologue, but for me it feels more like a cat watching a mouse flutter about for sport. Ser Waymar has his new sword, his new mail, his fine gloves, and his arrogance. This amused the Other. He knew the fight was already over. The Other's parry was almost lazy comes to mind. The other Others stood back because they were not needed.

[snip]

We know how it ends.

So Waymar says, "Come no farther," yet the Other slids forward with a longsword in hand. Sounds aggressive if you ask me. Then, the Other strikes the first blow. Ser Waymar stays in a very defensive position, checking blows, while the Other attacks. It sounds as honorable as the Mountain picking a fight with Reek holding a quivering stick over his head.

And after the pack has had it's fun, they laugh. Honorable?

So you object to the idea of popsicles being honorable because you don't know their motivations, the prolouge popsicle sounds aggressive to you, and because they laugh. None of those actions are inconsistent with the idea of popsicles being honorable.

The simple truth is that everytime we have seen popsicles, they have intentionally decreased their combat effectiveness in response to engaging in combat. I only know of two explanations for such behavior and i don't think the second is reasonable in the case of popsicles....

1. Sense of Honor

2. Mutually assured destruction

......Why do you think popsicles are always reducing their combat effectiveness when engaging with enemies?

[Black Crow]

It is my opinion, just my take on things, that when you hear the horn that wakes the sleepers, a brother of the NW blowing a horn 3 times, it can refer to any of the following:

1. Other - One of the beings that first came thousands of years ago, use Ice Spiders to hunt their prey (according to Old Nan), and they may also ride them

2. White Walker - A Popsicle, a white shadow created by an Other, armed with crazy moonlit longswords, who move through the woods (according to Old Nan), and may ride dead (wighted) horses and the like.

3. Wight - One who has been killed by a White Walker and rises from the dead

Close, pretty close I'd say but making two points.

One and two are one and the same. Both Old Nan and Sam refer to the lot who came in the Long Night as white walkers and they ride dead horses, not spiders.

As to the wights, while I won't quarrel with your definition I think its significant that when they attack the Fist the Watch are alerted by the triple blast for Others. Wolfmaid will stoutly assert that there is no evidence Craster's boys were present at all at the Fist. I disagree, but its clear that the appearance of wights was enough to trigger that particular alarm.

[Voice]

Look at the following 3 images...

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120605015933/gameofthrones/images/c/c7/White_Walker_2x10.jpg

http://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/game-of-thrones/thumb/f/f8/Nights_king.jpg/468px-Nights_king.jpg

http://www.glacialart.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Game-Of-Thrones-Set.jpg

...In the first, we see our good old popsicle budy. You will notice that this guy has striated/wrinkled skin, a very distinctive facial bone structure, Radiant blue eyes, a very distinct nose structure, a less pronounced ear pinna. The following two images bear pics of the so called King Popsicle. You will notice all the same features. He is less wrinkled, and has a horny crown, but that's the only real difference. We also have the following HBO summary which actively identifies the individual as a (White) Walker...

http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season-4/episode-4/home/34

Yes, actively. Good ole' buddy Popsicle looks more like weathered grooves are cutting so deep into his face it will eventually fall to pieces, while on king pop it is only surface striation. King Pop looks like he could still have skin for crying out loud! And it looks like he actually has ears, which I can't say for the good ole boy. The King of Pop (MJ for short?) seems quite ageless, even though he doesn't have hair (reminds me of "unburnt" Dany), and the crown is a pretty big deal because it's growing of his head in place of whisps of aging hair. He looks younger, but at the same time must be the superior of the aged looking WW that brought him to the altar. Though maybe he just uses Oil of the Olay.

Kinda think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one, because it looks even more obvious in these pictures. Just the fact that they used an actor instead of CGI for the King of Pop demonstrates my point.

[Black Crow]

Kinda think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one, because it looks even more obvious in these pictures. Just the fact that they used an actor instead of CGI for the King of Pop demonstrates my point.

They used an actor for the delivery boy too - in fact it was the same actor who led the attack on the Fist and played Ser Puddles las season.

[Harlan]

Kinda think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one, because it looks even more obvious in these pictures. Just the fact that they used an actor instead of CGI for the King of Pop demonstrates my point.

They have used an actor for every wight/other/white walker seen on screen. They also use CGI to enhance the looks, but those are all actors. The original popsicle actor is named Ian Whyte, while Richard Brake portrays the king popsicle. Just for a second, I want you to take a look at the images of Styr and arya. Can you honestly tell me that the morphological differences between those two humans are greater than the morphological differences seen between the popsicles and the king popsicle. I believe you are getting far to hung up on a single feature (wrinkling) of the creatures and failing to see their similarities.

[Voice]

So you object to the idea of popsicles being honorable because you don't know their motivations

No. I object to the idea of popsicles being honorable because they didn't know Ser Waymar's motivations, yet killed him.

Or, worse, they knew his motivations... 1) he only wanted to scout and find the wildlings until 2) he saw Popsicle #1, and just wanted to get the heck out of the forest and return to Castle Black...

...yet they killed him anyway.

Do you find honor in killing the weak?

The simple truth is that everytime we have seen popsicles, they have intentionally decreased their combat effectiveness in response to engaging in combat.

Yeah, it's called playing with their prey. Killer Whales do it. Lions do it. Heck the other day I watched some red tailed hawks do it. Serial killers do it too.

I only know of two explanations for such behavior and i don't think the second is reasonable in the case of popsicles....

1. Sense of Honor

2. Mutually assured destruction

3. As BC says, they are akin to childish bullies (btw BC, I see right thru your Craster's Sons innuendo LOL)

4. They are playing with their prey

5. Like Melisandre, it knows that by making it's display of power look easy or lazy, it only demands that much more respect/fear for it's ability to destroy.

I'm sure we can think of more. But let me say if you're limiting yourself to only two possible answers to every question, you're doing yourself a great disservice.

......Why do you think popsicles are always reducing their combat effectiveness when engaging with enemies?

Because they are in no way threatened. It is a game. They kill the weak.

Do you find Ramsay's "hunts" honorable?

[Uldra I]

I agree the images of show popsicles seem very different but obviously linked by some similarities, eg. the blue eyes...

I am one of those who think the WW and the Others are not one in the same. From here on I am just going to tell you my thoughts, and I don't have much book material to support these ideas, so if you want to call them crackpot, I understand.

I think the Night's Queen is the "Great Other". As GRRM said (quoted in earlier posts) She had to be alive and beautiful and elegant for the Night's King to abandon his oath to the Nights Watch and take her to bed. The Queen is a magical creature, as GRRM said, like a sidhe.

In the same way that Melisandre used Stannis' life force to give him shadow babies, the NQ used the life force of the NK to bear his babies. The difference is that Mel didn't use all Stannis' life up. The NQ used all the NK's life force which changed him into an other. NQ is a shadowbinder of the icy sort. Probably the NK is too by now.

I agree with Black Crow it makes sense that the WW are her version of shadow babies. Feather Crystal suggested the possibility the Craster's sons might have something to do with that process. I think maybe the NQ is using their life force to have more shadow babies.

ETA: Bet R'hllor is some sort of sidhe too. The undead like Beric, and Catelyn are R'hllor's version of shadow babies. Mel's are different because she is only a priestess, not R'hllor herself. Already, many forum members say they think the children are sidhe. The Old Gods might all be sidhe.

[Voice]

They used an actor for the delivery boy too - in fact it was the same actor who led the attack on the Fist and played Ser Puddles las season.

They have used an actor for every wight/other/white walker seen on screen. They also use CGI to enhance the looks, but those are all actors. The original popsicle actor is named Ian Whyte, while Richard Brake portrays the king popsicle. Just for a second, I want you to take a look at the images of Styr and arya. Can you honestly tell me that the morphological differences between those two humans are greater than the morphological differences seen between the popsicles and the king popsicle. I believe you are getting far to hung up on a single feature (wrinkling) of the creatures and failing to see their similarities.

I stand corrected, but they used an actor to play Gollum in LotR too. Whole lotta CGI going into the WW. The King of Pop has flesh.

[Harlan]

I stand corrected, but they used an actor to play Gollum in LotR too.

That's a really bad choice of examples seeing as how gollum, a creature that looks nothing at all like frodo (different body size, body proportions, facial structure, and potentially body plan as gollum doesn't seem to have upright hips) is actually a member of the same race as frodo. Both Gollum and frodo are hobits, just as king popsicle and carrier popsicle are both popsicles....

Because they are in no way threatened. It is a game. They kill the weak.

Except for being killed by a fat incompetent lordling, they weren't in danger at all.

I think we will have to agree to disagree with each other on this. While I acknowledge that other explanations exist for the popsicles behavior, I stand by my statement that they have an honor system and maintain that it is a valid interpretation of the text. Until such time as we know more about the popsicles and their motives, we could go back and forth on this indefinitely. Before I put a stop to my discussion of this topic, can you at least acknowledge that their behavior can be explained by their having some sort of honor system?

[Voice]

Just for a second, I want you to take a look at the images of Styr and arya. Can you honestly tell me that the morphological differences between those two humans are greater than the morphological differences seen between the popsicles and the king popsicle. I believe you are getting far to hung up on a single feature (wrinkling) of the creatures and failing to see their similarities.

Well, if Styr were bringing tribute to Arya I'd wonder what was up. And if Arya was growing shark teeth out of the top of her head I'd wonder if she didn't have something more going on. Styr has some cool scarring going on, but I live in southern california and that sort of stuff is pretty popular. But, I digress. The KoP/MJ looks ageless, neverborn. The Popsicle look has an expiring feel to it, like a shoe that's falling apart.

[Voice]

Wow, really?

That's a really bad choice of examples seeing as how gollum, a creature that looks nothing at all like frodo (different body size, body proportions, facial structure, and potentially body plan as gollum doesn't seem to have upright hips) is actually a member of the same race as frodo.

I think you know I was talking about layers of CGI being applied to the image of an actor. If not, well I think I'm wasting my time.

Except for being killed by a fat incompetent lordling, they weren't in danger at all.

It chose the weakest of the bunch, not Grenn and company. Good thing Sam remembered the dragonglass.

I think we will have to agree to disagree with each other on this.

Didn't I already say that?

While I acknowledge that other explanations exist for the popsicles behavior, I stand by my statement that they have an honor system and maintain that it is a valid interpretation of the text. Until such time as we know more about the popsicles and their motives, we could go back and forth on this indefinitely. Before I put a stop to my discussion of this topic, can you at least acknowledge that their behavior can be explained by their having some sort of honor system?

Good for you, enjoy standing by it.

:shocked: uhh, no... I'd say that an honor system is the first thing we can safely rule out given their behavior.

[Voice]

Anyone wanna talk about shadows...?

[Uldra I]

Anyone wanna talk about shadows...?

I do. Do you have any response to my earlier post? Was hoping to hear feedback on how all the ideas people presented in this thread came together in my head into one whole picture about Ice babies and the old gods. :unsure:

[Voice]

Close, pretty close I'd say but making two points.

One and two are one and the same. Both Old Nan and Sam refer to the lot who came in the Long Night as white walkers and they ride dead horses, not spiders.

But, when Old Nan tells the story of the LH she says the Others (not the WW) hunted the LH with their Ice Spiders. I would agree that White Walkers also came in the Long Night, astride their dead horses, but these Others are a different sort. They surely have a much different means of hunting (via packs of Ice Spiders), if not riding. It is mentioned somewhere and I'll try to find the quote about them possibly riding Ice Spiders, was it Samwell...? Anyway...

Nonetheless, we've seen several WW's/popsicles, in several locations now, at different times, and we've yet to glimpse an Ice Spider. My guess is that they'll be along soon now that the Winds of Winter are blowing and they will be traveling with these more rare Others.

As to the wights, while I won't quarrel with your definition I think its significant that when they attack the Fist the Watch are alerted by the triple blast for Others. Wolfmaid will stoutly assert that there is no evidence Craster's boys were present at all at the Fist. I disagree, but its clear that the appearance of wights was enough to trigger that particular alarm.

The triple blast for the three headed Ice Dragon! LOL I'm kidding but yeah, it's significant I think. They are all Others. The NW guards the realms of men. The First Men seemed to include CotF in that definition. Jon Snow seems to have expanded it to include Giants. There are these not exactly human, but very human-like races that are seen as inherently part of the realm, then there are these Others: Others Proper, White Walkers, and Wights. I think the Others Proper support your theory of Craster's Sons, discarded children, and the like being absorbed into this other-ness. It gives us a workable hypothesis that explains the Others coming in the long night thousands of years ago, these Others that hunted with Ice Spiders, these White Walkers that move through the woods like white shadows, and their hosts of the slain (Wights).

[wolfmaid7]

But why fight at all? Why not give Ser Waymar a 'hello nod' and be on their way? I'm very familiar with the prologue, but for me it feels more like a cat watching a mouse flutter about for sport. Ser Waymar has his new sword, his new mail, his fine gloves, and his arrogance. This amused the Other. He knew the fight was already over. The Other's parry was almost lazy comes to mind. The other Others stood back because they were not needed.

Waymar vs the Other

The Others made no sound.

Will saw movement from the corner of his eye. Pale shapes gliding through the wood. He turned his head, glimpsed a white shadow in the darkness. Then it was gone. Branches stirred gently in the wind, scratching at one another with wooden fingers. Will opened his mouth to call down a warning, and the words seemed to freeze in his throat. Perhaps he was wrong. Perhaps it had only been a bird, a reflection on the snow, some trick of the moonlight. What had he seen, after all?

Will, where are you? Ser Waymar called up. Can you see anything? He was turning in a slow circle, suddenly wary, his sword in hand. He must have felt them, as Will felt them. There was nothing to see. Answer me! Why is it so cold?

It was cold. Shivering, Will clung more tightly to his perch. His face pressed hard against the trunk of the sentinel. He could feel the sweet, sticky sap on his cheek.

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

Will heard the breath go out of Ser Waymar Royce in a long hiss. Come no farther, the lordling warned. His voice cracked like a boys. He threw the long sable cloak back over his shoulders, to free his arms for battle, and took his sword in both hands. The wind had stopped. It was very cold.

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

Ser Waymar met him bravely. Dance with me then. He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Nights Watch.

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them... four... five... Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence.

The pale sword came shivering through the air.

Ser Waymar met it with steel. When the blades met, there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing, like an animal screaming in pain. Royce checked a second blow, and a third, then fell back a step. Another flurry of blows, and he fell back again.

--------

We know how it ends.

So Waymar says, "Come no farther," yet the Other slids forward with a longsword in hand. Sounds aggressive if you ask me. Then, the Other strikes the first blow. Ser Waymar stays in a very defensive position, checking blows, while the Other attacks. It sounds as honorable as the Mountain picking a fight with Reek holding a quivering stick over his head.

And after the pack has had it's fun, they laugh. Honorable?

Well if you are saying to me in a language I know nothing about "come no farther" but you have both hands on your sword over your head that tells a different meaning.

Plus you bring up a very human view point when they misread different cultures. From "Will's" point of view what he heard "sounded" like laughing, we can't say that is so, it simply could have been saying "well fought"

The fact remains, Waymar on seeing the group could have left and he might of been ok.Will was in a tree safe and they did not attack him in anyway.

Just like Sam and Grenn, Ser Puddles went straight for who attacked him and presented a threat.For those that like to go by the Show Sam was spared twice by them. So they are not tge aggressors, though they can be aggressive, they are not a threat but can be turned inti one.The code attack when aggression toward them is shown.

[wolfmaid7]

But, when Old Nan tells the story of the LH she says the Others (not the WW) hunted the LH with their Ice Spiders. I would agree that White Walkers also came in the Long Night, astride their dead horses, but these Others are a different sort. They surely have a much different means of hunting (via packs of Ice Spiders), if not riding. It is mentioned somewhere and I'll try to find the quote about them possibly riding Ice Spiders, was it Samwell...? Anyway...

Nonetheless, we've seen several WW's/popsicles, in several locations now, at different times, and we've yet to glimpse an Ice Spider. My guess is that they'll be along soon now that the Winds of Winter are blowing and they will be traveling with these more rare Others.

The triple blast for the three headed Ice Dragon! LOL I'm kidding but yeah, it's significant I think. They are all Others. The NW guards the realms of men. The First Men seemed to include CotF in that definition. Jon Snow seems to have expanded it to include Giants. There are these not exactly human, but very human-like races that are seen as inherently part of the realm, then there are these Others: Others Proper, White Walkers, and Wights. I think the Others Proper support your theory of Craster's Sons, discarded children, and the like being absorbed into this other-ness. It gives us a workable hypothesis that explains the Others coming in the long night thousands of years ago, these Others that hunted with Ice Spiders, these White Walkers that move through the woods like white shadows, and their hosts of the slain (Wights).

We saw several Popsicles in several areas? We've seen two,instances only two through the entire book.We have not seen them leading Wights attacking people. The Wights have been on their own.They are the stalking Shadows, the WW that move through the woods, that I agree with.

[Voice]

I do. Do you have any response to my earlier post? Was hoping to hear feedback on how all the ideas people presented in this thread came together in my head into one whole picture about Ice babies and the old gods. :unsure:

Cool :) and sorry, must've missed it dealing with Harlan :bang: LOL

I agree the images of show popsicles seem very different but obviously linked by some similarities, eg. the blue eyes...

I am one of those who think the WW and the Others are not one in the same. From here on I am just going to tell you my thoughts, and I don't have much book material to support these ideas, so if you want to call them crackpot, I understand.

I think the Night's Queen is the "Great Other". As GRRM said (quoted in earlier posts) She had to be alive and beautiful and elegant for the Night's King to abandon his oath to the Nights Watch and take her to bed. The Queen is a magical creature, as GRRM said, like a sidhe.

Sounds pretty possible to me. And would really give us a perfect nemesis for Mel, and possibly even Bran, Dany or Jon Ahai :) It would be pretty cool to see her in the books one way or another. And if she was the one behind the veil of light Bran saw, it would make sense she scared him shitless. We could even have some foreshadowing for her laid down already in the unholy unions to produce ill tempered spawn: Mel with Stannis, Cersei with Jaime, etc. We've yet to see something as grotesque as a queen ant, pumping out legions of White Walker larvae, but damn wouldn't that be cool!

In the same way that Melisandre used Stannis' life force to give him shadow babies, the NQ used the life force of the NK to bear his babies. The difference is that Mel didn't use all Stannis' life up. The NQ used all the NK's life force which changed him into an other. NQ is a shadowbinder of the icy sort. Probably the NK is too by now.

Makes sense. Stannis isn't looking so good these days himself. One could only imagine what a dude would look like after bedding a sexy cold Great Other seductress. Mel, though a red priestess, is human afterall.

I agree with Black Crow it makes sense that the WW are her version of shadow babies. Feather Crystal suggested the possibility the Craster's sons might have something to do with that process. I think maybe the NQ is using their life force to have more shadow babies.

It seems someone/something is using the boys for some purpose. And the purpose is important enough to keep Craster safe in his little shack without a Wall to protect him.

ETA: Bet R'hllor is some sort of sidhe too. The undead like Beric, and Catelyn are R'hllor's version of shadow babies. Mel's are different because she is only a priestess, not R'hllor herself. Already, many forum members say they think the children are sidhe. The Old Gods might all be sidhe.

That, I don't believe...

[Voice]

Well if you are saying to me in a language I know nothing about "come no farther" but you have both hands on your sword over your head that tells a different meaning.

You really believe they don't understand the Common Tongue? Or sensed Waymar's fear??? You think they were intimidated by his shiny steel sword when their own blades break such like glass?

Really?

Plus you bring up a very human view point when they misread different cultures. From "Will's" point of view what he heard "sounded" like laughing, we can't say that is so, it simply could have been saying "well fought"

A very human point of view??? Call me homo-centric, but laughter is pretty universal. Not hard to tell when someone who speaks a foreign language is laughing at someone. These Others aren't exactly as difficult to comprehend as the speech of, say, a fish. They have very human like features, if not formerly human.

Well fought? Now that is laughable. Waymar was pissing himself from the get-go. He was in full retreat, checking blows from the start. When the Other first drew blood, it was because one of Waymar's parries came too late, not because he was lunging forward with a well timed thrust. It wasn't a fight. It was cold butchery. Once he knew he was doomed, he decided to die bravely, and swung his sword in anger for the first and last time ever.

The fact remains, Will on seeing the group could have left and ge might of been ok.Will was in a tree safe and they did not attack him in anyway.

Wow. Okay. Soo... Ser Waymar self-animated, and the WW have no idea what Wights do to people?

Just like Sam and Grenn, Ser Puddles went straight for who attacked him and presented a threat.For those that like to go by the Show Sam was spared twice by them. So they are not tge aggressors, though they can be aggressive, they are not a threat but can be turned inti one.The code attack when aggression toward them is shown.

That last part may have some truth in it. Though I would argue we have no way of knowing they wouldn't attack eventually, and their very presence would be enough to kill some I think.

They like watching people fill with fear before killing them. Once the fear fills them completely, and the prey accepts their fate, they tire of the hunt and have done with it. Perhaps it makes the slain one a more effective Wight to die in such a state of abject hopelessness.

[Uldra I]

Cool :) and sorry, must've missed it dealing with Harlan :bang: LOL

Sounds pretty possible to me. And would really give us a perfect nemesis for Mel, and possibly even Bran, Dany or Jon Ahai :) It would be pretty cool to see her in the books one way or another. And if she was the one behind the veil of light Bran saw, it would make sense she scared him shitless. We could even have some foreshadowing for her laid down already in the unholy unions to produce ill tempered spawn: Mel with Stannis, Cersei with Jaime, etc. We've yet to see something as grotesque as a queen ant, pumping out legions of White Walker larvae, but damn wouldn't that be cool!

Makes sense. Stannis isn't looking so good these days himself. One could only imagine what a dude would look like after bedding a sexy cold Great Other seductress. Mel, though a red priestess, is human afterall.

It seems someone/something is using the boys for some purpose. And the purpose is important enough to keep Craster safe in his little shack without a Wall to protect him.

That, I don't believe...

Thanks :)

[wolfmaid7]

You really believe they don't understand the Common Tongue? Or sensed Waymar's fear??? You think they were intimidated by his shiny steel sword when their own blades break such like glass?

Really?

A very human point of view??? Call me homo-centric, but laughter is pretty universal. Not hard to tell when someone who speaks a foreign language is laughing at someone. These Others aren't exactly as difficult to comprehend as the speech of, say, a fish. They have very human like features, if not formerly human.

Well fought? Now that is laughable. Waymar was pissing himself from the get-go. He was in full retreat, checking blows from the start. When the Other first drew blood, it was because one of Waymar's parries came too late, not because he was lunging forward with a well timed thrust. It wasn't a fight. It was cold butchery. Once he knew he was doomed, he decided to die bravely, and swung his sword in anger for the first and last time ever.

Wow. Okay. Soo... Ser Waymar self-animated, and the WW have no idea what Wights do to people?

That last part may have some truth in it. Though I would argue we have no way of knowing they wouldn't attack eventually, and their very presence would be enough to kill some I think.

They like watching people fill with fear before killing them. Once the fear fills them completely, and the prey accepts their fate, they tire of the hunt and have done with it. Perhaps it makes the slain one a more effective Wight to die in such a state of abject hopelessness.

You are missing the point, you are super imposing your perception and Will's perception on a different culture.

1.Where would Ser Crackles learn the common tounge? Are YOU serious?

2.Laughter is universal for us, humans.So tell me does a Hyena truly laugh, or is it just to us their call sounds like laughing

3.Again by your verbatim use of Will's words you again are judging their actions based on human cultural context.

4.Waymar challanged Ser Crackles to a duel, he lost.You pointing out every move Ser Puddles made is no different than Jon beating the aurochs in a fight. It just wasn't his day.How do you know Waymar pissed himself with fear.The point of view was Will and Waymar's line of "Dance with me" was not only a challenge, but the most badass phrase in context ever.Waymar fought, bravely, honorably and was given an honorable death. He feared the unknown but when faced with the opponent, he behaved like a bawler.Two warrior class met, one lost.Are you seriously ignoring the other 5 that was standing by watching for the entire fight? They only got involved when Waymar was done for. Ser Crackles already dealt him a blow that would kill him slowly what they did was merciful. There are tribal cultures around tge world that did the very same thing to enimies because it was honorable for their opponents and it was a sign of brotherhood. ..everyone partaking in the kill.

4.Dude anyone anyone be it bird, bear, wolf or man thay dies North will rise.The WWs are not raising the Wights.Read the accounts of Tourmonds son Towyin,and Thistle then ask me if the WWs are raising Wights.Anything that dies North rises, so unless the WWs are omnipresent and clairvoyant its not them.