Heresy 118 The Shadows

[Voice]

Just because they were certain does not mean that they were correct… This is a good time to point out that GRRM has offered zero evidence to support the statements / beliefs of Craster's Wives...

Logical. And there are bound to be Red Herrings afoot, but, the passage seemed so obscure it's hard for me to not believe it - at least partially.

I wouldn't go to that extreme. At least one point of evidence, apart from the testimony of Caster's wives, exists in the stories to support the theory, fairly exclusively....

1. All popsicles that we have seen have been, apparently male. Admittedly, this is horrid evidence as only one popsicle has been identified by sex, though many were said to be his twin, and this suggests that they are male as well.

....And there is quite a bit of circumstantial evidence suggesting that the fundamentals of the CS=P theory are correct. Specifically, there is a fair bit of evidence to suggest a human origin of popsicles...

1. Relatively human appearance. (Same general size and shape)

2. Honor system (as seen in prolouge)

3. Use of human-like weapons (Swords specifically)

...While none of this evidence is conclusive, it is greater than "zero evidence to support the statements / beliefs of Craster's Wives...."

This is also logical, though I did not witness their "Honor system"...? You must admit though that GRRM has described them as inhuman. That is troublesome.

[Voice]

Well, the Popsicles on the show certainly do have a flippin' culture. They have a special Icehenge location with an altar at the center, at which a baby is transformed into (apparently) another Other. It's a rite of great significance to them, if they transported a baby so many hundreds of miles north, miraculously feeding it and keeping it warm and dry for the whole trip.

No. The show showed an entirely different race from the WW in the altar scene. I would argue the WW have minimal, if any, cultural organization. They seem to be footsoldiers. The more human-faced creatures around the altar were far more sentient, the eyes and face were more expressive, their texture appeared to be closer to that of weirwood than the frozen zombie-flesh of the WW. If we're talking about the show, it showed 2 different types of what are generally referred to as Others in that episode. Given that D&D have had more contact with the author than we have, I tend to lean towards them not creating show-canon out of thin air.

Note i do not prescribe to this because again the wife's testimony suggests to me that Wights are picking up the babies,and not WWs and that what was validated on the tv show is only what the wives believe and what they believe has not entirely stood up to a lot of facts.

The show showed a WW picking up the baby. And there is no way a wight has the mental capacity to do so. The wights are very unidirectional. Like Orell's eagle, only a fragment remains, a shadow if you will, of the consciousness that once existed. They don't seem capable of harvesting Craster's sons to IMO.

I like what you are suggesting about the dark shadows that they are somehow only a part of a whole person and notably a darker part. The shadow drawn from Stannis had evil intent in that it was out to kill Renly without the emotional attachment to his brother. The second Stannis shadow killed the castellian of Storm's End. Which makes me wonder, if evil intent is drawn out of Stannis, does that leave him with less evil intent? I don't know if I'm making sense, but if evil is leaving the body, will there be less evil left within the person?

I would say it suggests the opposite. The ill-intent toward Renly that Stannis felt was so intense, like the destructive gamma rays of an atomic blast, that the shadow it cast was extremely lethal.

[Harlan]

This is also logical, though I did not witness their "Honor system"...? You must admit though that GRRM has described them as inhuman. That is troublesome.

Well, if you reread the portions of the story featuring a popsicle, you may notice that popsicles are, for lack of better words, fair. In the prolouge, the popsicles outnumbered Waymar, 6 popsicles to one human, and yet the popsicles fought one on one. Why would they do this? And then, when the popsicle meet up with Sam, you may notice that the popsicle made no immediate attempt to kill. It could have ridden down the members of the nights watch and made short work of Grenn, small paul, and sam. Instead it dismounted and faced them on foot. Then it disarmed Grenn. It only engaged lethally once Small paul attacked. I don't know how to describe the popsicles behavior other than to say that they are honorable.

[wolfmaid7]

Well, if you reread the portions of the story featuring a popsicle, you may notice that popsicles are, for lack of better words, fair. In the prolouge, the popsicles outnumbered Waymar, 6 popsicles to one human, and yet the popsicles fought one on one. Why would they do this? And then, when the popsicle meet up with Sam, you may notice that the popsicle made no immediate attempt to kill. It could have ridden down the members of the nights watch and made short work of Grenn, small paul, and sam. Instead it dismounted and faced them on foot. Then it disarmed Grenn. It only engaged lethally once Small paul attacked. I don't know how to describe the popsicles behavior other than to say that they are honorable.

oh my gosh,i thought i was the only one that noticed this clear display of fair play by the Popcicles and how the almost exact same incident was repeated where now the Ser Puddles was outnumbered and he was totally gang buggered.

[wolfmaid7]

The show showed a WW picking up the baby. And there is no way a wight has the mental capacity to do so. The wights are very unidirectional. Like Orell's eagle, only a fragment remains, a shadow if you will, of the consciousness that once existed. They don't seem capable of harvesting Craster's sons to IMO.

I disagree with this on the basis of "textual" evidence and the textual evidence shows that the Wights maintain memory and that they are intelligent.Though i think their memories are being utilized intelligently consider the following.

1. Sam and Gilly's night in the hut,there were hundreds of Wights outside NW members and Wildlings,however who was it in the hundreds of Wights that appeared in the hut.Small Paul,the individual who while alive saved Sam's life by carrying him on the long march from the Fist.He wasn't just any Wight that appeared he was the "right" Wight the one that made Sam hesitate and attempt communication. Additionaly he didn't just attack Sam and Gilly,when the horse reared outside he made his move so why would pause so long? Why use specifically Small Paul?

2. The same with Othor and Jaffar they bypassed how many NW members ? killed Mormont's and Jon's guard and went straight for Mormont's room.

As to what the books show,not what the wives believe is this.

When was questioned by Jon as to who comes for the babies she identified white shadows with blue eyes.....Later when she saw Small Paul her exact words were " He's come for the babe,he smells the life a new born babe stinks of life,he's come for the babe".

This presents reasonable doubt as to who the wives see picking up the babies.

The Wights are White with blue eyes and they are the ones that inhabit and move with the white cold.

[JNR]

No. The show showed an entirely different race from the WW in the altar scene.

An interesting concept, but there has been, needless to say, no hint (let alone evidence) of any kind in the books that there are multiple types of Popsicles.

The more human-faced creatures around the altar were far more sentient, the eyes and face were more expressive, their texture appeared to be closer to that of weirwood than the frozen zombie-flesh of the WW.

It's like you saw a different scene than I did.

In the scene I saw, only one Other was ever shown in any such detail; the rest were complete blurs. That one's face, in color and shriveled appearance and deep blue eyes, looks essentially the same as the Popsicle shown detail previously. The primary distinction was the weird, Whedonesque spikes on its head, which gave it a low-budget, B-movie quality.

Needless to say, the entire scene... including the spiky-headed Popsicle... was entirely concocted for the show. GRRM chose to write no such scene in the corresponding book (SoS), or the next book, or the next book, and I am comfortable predicting we will never get any scene of this sort in the books at all.

Given that D&D have had more contact with the author than we have, I tend to lean towards them not creating show-canon out of thin air.

Yet that is exactly what they have done, over and over and over again, far too many times to count. (For instance, I really do not recall Robb marrying and impregnating a Volantene woman who is subsequently stabbed in the baby during the Red Wedding. Perhaps you could jog my memory by citing the book and chapter...)

As GRRM recently said himself, the show is not canon, any more than the graphic novel. In all such cases, those who have bought the rights can and do make any changes, large and small as they see fit, in order to suit their own purposes. That's why it can't be used as evidence about the books, or vice versa. Concluding that there is a spiky-headed, Night's King Other in the books is about as reasonable as concluding there is a Coldhands on the show.

[JNR]

This presents reasonable doubt as to who the wives see picking up the babies.

If indeed they've seen anyone picking up babies. They never say they have; they just confidently assert that the Others are Craster's sons. It's like confidently asserting "the sun orbits the world and the world is flat," something else I imagine they would consider irrefutable.

Those who think the show and books are in lockstep on this should also consider that the wives wouldn't see anyone picking up babies, given what Craster does there, which is to march out in the woods alone and dump a baby. Which is rather similar to what, in the books, Jon says and Mormont confirms... that Craster is giving his sons to the wood. No sign he's dragging his wives along for these expeditions.

[wolfmaid7]

If indeed they've seen anyone picking up babies. They never say they have; they just confidently assert that the Others are Craster's sons. It's like confidently asserting "the sun orbits the world and the world is flat," something else I imagine they would consider irrefutable.

Those who think the show and books are in lockstep on this should also consider that the wives wouldn't see anyone picking up babies, given what Craster does there, which is to march out in the woods alone and dump a baby. Which is rather similar to what, in the books, Jon says and Mormont confirms... that Craster is giving his sons to the wood. No sign he's dragging his wives along for these expeditions.

True true to exposure ritual.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I don't think it's contrived at all. They are being made for a yet unknown purpose.

Sacrificing the babes and using their life to create a White Walker doesn't necessarily mean that their brains, (if they have one) or their consciousness is that of a babe. A whole new creature is being made.

Right, my point was that if they are a whole new creature created from the life essence of a son of Craster, then they're not really Craster's Sons after all.

On the other hand, if they are indeed Craster's sons actual spirits bound to golems of ice, then how long does it take to go from newborn to full grown Other in an Ice Golem, and where do they learn to fight with swords (or even learn what swords and armor look like).

For that reason, I don't think either of those are correct. I think there are spirits inhabiting the bodies of Craster's Sons who saw all of time from the eyes of a weirwood. Saw Knights and Wars, saw the Pact being signed, and saw it broken.

[addicted to snow]

Its surprising how many people missed it - and how many dismissed it.

Your right, many readers do pick up on it as being a red herring...

Most intuitive readers have known since book one that the Others are tied to House Stark, of Winterfell (the House that GRRM provides all the background on)… The idea of GRRM's greatest Intrigue being linked to House Craster (not the Starks) is just silly & in no way on par with the writing in the rest of the Series. So, you are very correct many of the more astute readers identify Craster for what he is - a red herring designed to protect GRRM's true intrigues until the time comes for them to be revealed… You will experience this all first hand as soon as the next book comes out.

:commie:

[Voice]

JNR I have to respond to you before I catch up on this thread, mostly to say I stand corrected.

Yet that is exactly what they have done, over and over and over again, far too many times to count. (For instance, I really do not recall Robb marrying and impregnating a Volantene woman who is subsequently stabbed in the baby during the Red Wedding. Perhaps you could jog my memory by citing the book and chapter...)

No you are exactly right. Selective memory, I must've been suffering from temporary amnesia or something. That is the sort of stuff I complain about during every episode, and somehow I must've blocked it out by the time I revisit the forum.

An interesting concept, but there has been, needless to say, no hint (let alone evidence) of any kind in the books that there are multiple types of Popsicles.

It's like you saw a different scene than I did.

In the scene I saw, only one Other was ever shown in any such detail; the rest were complete blurs. That one's face, in color and shriveled appearance and deep blue eyes, looks essentially the same as the Popsicle shown detail previously. The primary distinction was the weird, Whedonesque spikes on its head, which gave it a low-budget, B-movie quality.

Here I must disagree. I'm really surprised you think they look so much alike. I'm looking at them side by side as I write. The WW appears shriveled to the point of decomposition, but not the NK fella. Spikey head looks striated, but not shriveled at all. One can see lines upon his face and even what appear to be veins. He has no hair, but has lips. The WW looks more like petrified wood than wooden, his wringles are so deep some look more like holes, and he has no lips or veins. NK looks transformed. The WW looks decomposed. They have the same eye coloring and they both have two eyes, but other than that and a nose, they are quite different looking.

[Harlan]

Here I must disagree. I'm really surprised you think they look so much alike. I'm looking at them side by side as I write. The WW appears shriveled to the point of decomposition, but not the NK fella. Spikey head looks striated, but not shriveled at all. One can see lines upon his face and even what appear to be veins. He has no hair, but has lips. The WW looks more like petrified wood than wooden, his wringles are so deep some look more like holes, and he has no lips or veins. NK looks transformed. The WW looks decomposed. They have the same eye coloring and they both have two eyes, but other than that and a nose, they are quite different looking.

Look at the following 3 images...

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120605015933/gameofthrones/images/c/c7/White_Walker_2x10.jpg

http://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/game-of-thrones/thumb/f/f8/Nights_king.jpg/468px-Nights_king.jpg

http://www.glacialart.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Game-Of-Thrones-Set.jpg

...In the first, we see our good old popsicle budy. You will notice that this guy has striated/wrinkled skin, a very distinctive facial bone structure, Radiant blue eyes, a very distinct nose structure, a less pronounced ear pinna. The following two images bear pics of the so called King Popsicle. You will notice all the same features. He is less wrinkled, and has a horny crown, but that's the only real difference. We also have the following HBO summary which actively identifies the individual as a (White) Walker...

http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season-4/episode-4/home/34

...It doesn't explicitly say "white" but from the context it is obvious that "walker" is simply a shortening of "white walker" used earlier in the paragraph.

EDIT: Unfortunately, my 4th link didn't work quite as well as I would have hoped. To see the synopsis, simply scroll down about half a page to the section "Inside" and click "Read the Synopsis"

[Uldra I]

Techincally that would be right.Now such a character exists in the Night's Queen could she have done with the Night's king as Mel did with Stannis. He gave his Soul and she made the WWs.He was a warrior himself, so she birth him warriors.But may be they hung along longer becsuse the NK was a Warg and that soul just don't disappear easily

I fear if Mel drew from Jon, the Shadows created would be real real problems.

I've posted this idea before. :D However, that was before considering what they do with Craster's sons. Think since the Night's King's 'fire' has been used up, the Night's Queen has to draw the 'fire' from the babies?

Also the distinction between wights, white walkers, and others has really been confusing for me in this thread, could someone please clarify?

ETA. Also which are the Popsicles?

[Voice]

Well, if you reread the portions of the story featuring a popsicle, you may notice that popsicles are, for lack of better words, fair. In the prolouge, the popsicles outnumbered Waymar, 6 popsicles to one human, and yet the popsicles fought one on one. Why would they do this?

But why fight at all? Why not give Ser Waymar a 'hello nod' and be on their way? I'm very familiar with the prologue, but for me it feels more like a cat watching a mouse flutter about for sport. Ser Waymar has his new sword, his new mail, his fine gloves, and his arrogance. This amused the Other. He knew the fight was already over. The Other's parry was almost lazy comes to mind. The other Others stood back because they were not needed.

Waymar vs the Other

The Others made no sound.

Will saw movement from the corner of his eye. Pale shapes gliding through the wood. He turned his head, glimpsed a white shadow in the darkness. Then it was gone. Branches stirred gently in the wind, scratching at one another with wooden fingers. Will opened his mouth to call down a warning, and the words seemed to freeze in his throat. Perhaps he was wrong. Perhaps it had only been a bird, a reflection on the snow, some trick of the moonlight. What had he seen, after all?

“Will, where are you?” Ser Waymar called up. “Can you see anything?” He was turning in a slow circle, suddenly wary, his sword in hand. He must have felt them, as Will felt them. There was nothing to see. “Answer me! Why is it so cold?”

It was cold. Shivering, Will clung more tightly to his perch. His face pressed hard against the trunk of the sentinel. He could feel the sweet, sticky sap on his cheek.

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

Will heard the breath go out of Ser Waymar Royce in a long hiss. “Come no farther,” the lordling warned. His voice cracked like a boy’s. He threw the long sable cloak back over his shoulders, to free his arms for battle, and took his sword in both hands. The wind had stopped. It was very cold.

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

Ser Waymar met him bravely. “Dance with me then.” He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night’s Watch.

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them... four... five... Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence.

The pale sword came shivering through the air.

Ser Waymar met it with steel. When the blades met, there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing, like an animal screaming in pain. Royce checked a second blow, and a third, then fell back a step. Another flurry of blows, and he fell back again.

--------

We know how it ends.

So Waymar says, "Come no farther," yet the Other slids forward with a longsword in hand. Sounds aggressive if you ask me. Then, the Other strikes the first blow. Ser Waymar stays in a very defensive position, checking blows, while the Other attacks. It sounds as honorable as the Mountain picking a fight with Reek holding a quivering stick over his head.

And after the pack has had it's fun, they laugh. Honorable?

[Black Crow]

I've posted this idea before. :D However, that was before considering what they do with Craster's sons. Think since the Night's King's 'fire' has been used up, the Night's Queen has to draw the 'fire' from the babies?

Also the distinction between wights, white walkers, and others has really been confusing for me in this thread, could someone please clarify?

ETA. Also which are the Popsicles?

Ok...

Wights are dead things that walk, usually but not invariably human, zombies if you like. Examples include Othor, Jafer and Small Paul. Apart from walking slow and killing living things there is no trace of consciousness.

White Walkers are something else entirely - "demons of snow and ice and cold"* These are the guys who scragged Ser Waymar and lead the armies of wights. One, cheerfully referred to up and down the forum as Ser Puddles, was destroyed by Sam the Slayer

"Popsicles" is a silly term for white walkers much beloved by some on this thread.

As to the "Others"; thus far GRRM has used Others and white walkers interchangeably, but some of us suspect that the term is a wider one and includes Craster's boys but is not confined to them

*© Stannis Baratheon

[Harlan]

ETA. Also which are the Popsicles?

Well, a few decades ago (in heresy terms) a huge debate raged over "What are white walkers/others/wights." The debate was never really settled, but we did move past it by agreeing to disagree and using new terms to describe things. The term "popsicle" was created at this time to refer specifically to the type of thing which killed Sr Waymar Royce.

EDIT: After doing some extra investigation, I have discovered that the term popsicle originates from heresy 66 and was originally coined by JonNonRegis.

[Black Crow]

...And after the pack has had it's fun, they laugh. Honorable?

No its not, but their behaviour throughout that episode is childlike. They're happy to stand on the sidelines watching as one brother fights Ser Waymar and then when the lad goes down they all rush in. They also appear to think it very funny to booby-trap Ser Waymar's body so that he rises up again as a wight when Will comes out of hiding.

[Black Crow]

No you are exactly right. Selective memory, I must've been suffering from temporary amnesia or something. That is the sort of stuff

Here I must disagree. I'm really surprised you think they look so much alike. I'm looking at them side by side as I write. The WW appears shriveled to the point of decomposition, but not the NK fella. Spikey head looks striated, but not shriveled at all. One can see lines upon his face and even what appear to be veins. He has no hair, but has lips. The WW looks more like petrified wood than wooden, his wringles are so deep some look more like holes, and he has no lips or veins. NK looks transformed. The WW looks decomposed. They have the same eye coloring and they both have two eyes, but other than that and a nose, they are quite different looking.

What Harlan said. The "Nights King" guy looks that way, with tiny branches growing out of his weirwood head because he's the leader - compare and contrast the appearance of the late and unlamented King Joffrey with Sandor Clegane.

As to the show, it was certainly "wandering" but following a conference with GRRM in Santa Fe last year this present season seems to be trying very hard to bring things back on track.

[Uldra I]

Ok...

Wights are dead things that walk, usually but not invariably human, zombies if you like. Examples include Othor, Jafer and Small Paul. Apart from walking slow and killing living things there is no trace of consciousness.

White Walkers are something else entirely - "demons of snow and ice and cold"* These are the guys who scragged Ser Waymar and lead the armies of wights. One, cheerfully referred to up and down the forum as Ser Puddles, was destroyed by Sam the Slayer

"Popsicles" is a silly term for white walkers much beloved by some on this thread.

As to the "Others"; thus far GRRM has used Others and white walkers interchangeably, but some of us suspect that the term is a wider one and includes Craster's boys but is not confined to them

*© Stannis Baratheon

Thanks so much :). Now just one more thing, the others... Same as white walker Popsicles?

ETA. OOOPS! sorry, please ignore this post, except for the thanks. :p

[Voice]

Also the distinction between wights, white walkers, and others has really been confusing for me in this thread, could someone please clarify?

ETA. Also which are the Popsicles?

It is my opinion, just my take on things, that when you hear the horn that wakes the sleepers, a brother of the NW blowing a horn 3 times, it can refer to any of the following:

1. Other - One of the beings that first came thousands of years ago, use Ice Spiders to hunt their prey (according to Old Nan), and they may also ride them

2. White Walker - A Popsicle, a white shadow created by an Other, armed with crazy moonlit longswords, who move through the woods (according to Old Nan), and may ride dead (wighted) horses and the like.

3. Wight - One who has been killed by a White Walker and rises from the dead

ETA: better grammar LOL