Heresy 118 The Shadows

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Look at the following 3 images...

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120605015933/gameofthrones/images/c/c7/White_Walker_2x10.jpg

http://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/game-of-thrones/thumb/f/f8/Nights_king.jpg/468px-Nights_king.jpg

http://www.glacialart.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Game-Of-Thrones-Set.jpg

...In the first, we see our good old popsicle budy. You will notice that this guy has striated/wrinkled skin, a very distinctive facial bone structure, Radiant blue eyes, a very distinct nose structure, a less pronounced ear pinna. The following two images bear pics of the so called King Popsicle. You will notice all the same features. He is less wrinkled, and has a horny crown, but that's the only real difference. We also have the following HBO summary which actively identifies the individual as a (White) Walker...

http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season-4/episode-4/home/34

...It doesn't explicitly say "white" but from the context it is obvious that "walker" is simply a shortening of "white walker" used earlier in the paragraph.

EDIT: Unfortunately, my 4th link didn't work quite as well as I would have hoped. To see the synopsis, simply scroll down about half a page to the section "Inside" and click "Read the Synopsis"

I think the first image is an ice and snow approximation of the group of 13 that we see behind the second, thus why they look similar, but the face of the first is much less defined, and less human looking than the second. Thus the first are the golems/shadows that the second group use to range out into the world, much like Bloodraven uses crows, and Bran uses Hodor and Summer.

My guess is that somewhere there's a bunch of children plugged into some gigantic ice structure that mimics a Greenseer plugged into a weirwood, and that is what I believe Bran saw when he looked into the Heart of Winter.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I agree the images of show popsicles seem very different but obviously linked by some similarities, eg. the blue eyes...

I am one of those who think the WW and the Others are not one in the same. From here on I am just going to tell you my thoughts, and I don't have much book material to support these ideas, so if you want to call them crackpot, I understand.

I think the Night's Queen is the "Great Other". As GRRM said (quoted in earlier posts) She had to be alive and beautiful and elegant for the Night's King to abandon his oath to the Nights Watch and take her to bed. The Queen is a magical creature, as GRRM said, like a sidhe.

In the same way that Melisandre used Stannis' life force to give him shadow babies, the NQ used the life force of the NK to bear his babies. The difference is that Mel didn't use all Stannis' life up. The NQ used all the NK's life force which changed him into an other. NQ is a shadowbinder of the icy sort. Probably the NK is too by now.

I agree with Black Crow it makes sense that the WW are her version of shadow babies. Feather Crystal suggested the possibility the Craster's sons might have something to do with that process. I think maybe the NQ is using their life force to have more shadow babies.

ETA: Bet R'hllor is some sort of sidhe too. The undead like Beric, and Catelyn are R'hllor's version of shadow babies. Mel's are different because she is only a priestess, not R'hllor herself. Already, many forum members say they think the children are sidhe. The Old Gods might all be sidhe.

I actually had a theory I called the "Great (m)Other" which had her either as the Night's Queen, or Gaia herself, or perhaps Gaia taking a human like form becoming the Night's Queen to exhibit direct influence on the world. Instead of referring to R'hllor as a sidhe though, I saw him as a manifestation of the Sun, and the Great (m)Other as a manifestation of the moon.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

1. Agreed, this is a possibility. I tend to see them more as a parallel to the red priests- they start out human (Craster's babies, maybe other people's babies too at one point) and are transformed into not-quite-human beings; ice made flesh so to speak. I know that Ser Puddles "melting" is often seen as evidence that they are no longer in a human body- but if Mel were to be killed by a magical ice weapon, would anyone really be surprised if she went up in flames? Does that mean she's not human, and was never human? I guess that's debatable, but her example to me suggests that the WW could start out as humans and transform into their final form without having to transfer their consciousness into separate"cold and ice" bodies.

Perhaps the "training" occurs in a fashion similar to Bran's - a psychic connection to the weirnet, or to the memories of previous generations of WW? Then we don't need the silly image of young WW practicing swordplay, yet they could still be the adult version of human babies- now with the knowledge and fighting skills of past generations.

Interesting take, but would a half ice baby continue to grow, and at what point do the bones and flesh turn to ice completely?

I like the concept of their training occurring by hooking them up to some sort of psychic connection similar to a weirwood, as I said, that's what I suspect is happening, though it didn't dawn on me that such a connection could result in rapid development due to having near infinite access to information and time.

I suppose I could go with this interpretation if my concept of building golems/shadows out of freezing air/water into golems to range out into the world are not correct.

2. Very cool. Scary thought...!

Thanks, I'm kind of fond of it (or something similar very similar to what I described) :)

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I think that again we're in danger of over-complicating things here. While I respect Wolfmaid's theory that the white walkers are quite separate from the wights I cannot agree with it or accept that the minor textual "loopholes" cited justify contradicting the unambiguous texts that cast them as wicked and leading the armies of wights.

The question of language is not germane; whether they laughed, danced or sang those walkers in the prologue were out to kill Ser Waymar from the start. His challenge was a response to that, not the reason for it, and likewise in the end booby-trapping his body so that it rose up and killed Will indicates a macabre sense of humour rather than a sense of honour.

:agree:

The fact that Sam on the retreat forces himself not to think about the Others suggests that they were indeed at the Fist, triggering the three-honk alarm.

:agree:

[JNR]

Now now, some folks might say that "Craster's boys" is a silly term for white walkers much beloved by some on this thread.

"Popsicles"came into use at a time when some were arguing that the term "Others" included wights. So "popsicles" was introduced to define only the ice creatures.

Ah yes, I remember it well.

How odd of me not to consider the premise that there are multiple races of Popsicles (root beer, grape, cherry, lemon) which no doubt struggle for supremacy in a medieval hierarchy in my freezer.

I think that again we're in danger of over-complicating things here. While I respect Wolfmaid's theory that the white walkers are quite separate from the wights I cannot agree with it or accept that the minor textual "loopholes" cited justify contradicting the unambiguous texts that cast them as wicked and leading the armies of wights.

The question of language is not germane; whether they laughed, danced or sang those walkers in the prologue were out to kill Ser Waymar from the start. His challenge was a response to that, not the reason for it, and likewise in the end booby-trapping his body so that it rose up and killed Will indicates a macabre sense of humour rather than a sense of honour.

:agree: and would just like to point out again how unusual it was for GRRM to interpret Waymar's death scene for us, instead of asking us to do so based on raw data.

He could simply have shown us the Popsicles descending on dying Waymar and stabbing him repeatedly as a group; that would have sufficed to persuade me they are not amiable and jolly.

But instead he went the extra mile and wrote, flat out,

It was cold butchery.

...which is difficult to misinterpret, however hard one may try.

[JNR]

This was debated at length some threads ago and it's clear that GRRM uses Others to refer only to the popsicles.

So much so that it was not possible to find a single counterexample.

Never, in all his interviews conducted since 1996, does GRRM use "Others" to mean the wights or to state or imply the existence of a hidden third species of frozen terror.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

My take on this is more mundane than most. The White Walkers we've seen so far in the books are not the White Walkers of legend but are instead inspired by them. They appear to be crafted to resemble how they may have appeared according to legend and folklore yet they also appear to resemble modern day knights complete with armor and sword.

When Ser Puddles melts, it appears that he is made up of frozen air. His "armor" and "bones" seem to resemble the properties of frozen nitrogen, while his "sword" is perhaps frozen carbon dioxide. His pale blue blood resembles liquid oxygen. Basically he is made of frozen air. (Eventhe high pitch squeal when metal sword meets their sword is consistent with the noise that is made when metal touches frozen carbon dioxide, it's called the Bernoulli principle).

There is mention in AGOt of the existence of "aeromancers". These would be wizards who can magically manipulate air. My guess is we have at least one of these up north creating these White Walker "golems".

There is a lot of similar imagery to the description of White Walkers and the description of Knights of the Kingsguard. I think both are often referred to as a white shadow. My guess is whoever made these White Walkers may have been modeling them partly based on Mance's description of the Kingsguard that he would have had an opportunity to observe if he was the Nightswatchmen who was present at the Harrenhall tourney.

Finally as BC has opined, I believe the souls or animus of Craster's children are being used to animate these frozen air golems. Which means we may also have a shadowbinder present as well. Much like Melisandre gave life with Stannis' shadow to her black, inky, blood (my take anyway), these beings of frozen air are given life by another shadowbinder.

(I've used the term golems for a reason. Because the most famous golem in history is the Golem of Prague, a jewish legend where an artificial being was created to protect a village from antisemetic people. The Golem of Prague had the magical ability to turn invisible and to raise spirits from the dead. The same powers that GRRM has given his White Walkers.)

Finally a shadowbinder may also be the one responsible for giving "life" to the wights. Or perhaps we have the existence of a necromancer as well in this conspiracy. (A recent convention reading about the Lannister entry in a World of Fire and Ice even mentions a necromancer being present in the Westerlands at some point).

So someone creates these White Walkers basically giving life to what has to be the most feared "boogymen" of both the Wildlings and the Nightswatch. Their purpose appears to be to herd the wildlings into Mance's host and he in turn then gets them across the Wall. The one time they attack in force is to rid the host of it's biggest impediment in reaching the Wall, which is Jeor's forces marshaled at the Fist.

Which makes the biggest mystery in my mind as to why they need to get the Wildlings through the Wall.

I totally agree on the "popsicles" being some sort of frozen air "golem". As for an Aeromancer, Necromancer, and Shadowbinder, I would argue that there's simply a magical being/collective that understands magic (including Skinchanging, Aeromancy, Necromancy, Shadowbinding, Aquamancy ie water magic, and likely Pyromancy) better than the most powerful sorcerers there have ever been.

I suspect the Greenseers/Old Gods had access to all of that information, thus how they were able to call upon the hammer of the waters, and were able to smash the Arm of Dorne to combat the First Men.

When said Greenseers weirwoods were chopped down, the roots of the tree begin to petrify and die, and their bodies begin to die as well. Knowing that they will pass into nothing, they use their magical abilities to find new hosts that would allow them to re-engage into the Weirnet. There aren't enough CotF left in the world, so their only remaining source of hosts with the magical blood capable of inhabiting are men. But men's lives are too short, thus the need to "preserve" their bodies through the use of Ice Magic.

Oh wow, here's a thought...

What if these hosts are in fact Craster's sons (and Starks sons, and other babies with magical blood down through the ages), but as their bodies deteriorate, more and more of the body gets replaced by "aeromancy" and thus they become more and more frozen air as they age? Thus why the Night's King in the show has a different appearance. His body is fresher (likely one of Craster's first sons), than the popsicle we see bring the child to him, who is almost entirely made of ice and snow. As they age, and as more of their flesh becomes Ice, their power weakens so they have to spend most of their power maintaining their own form, and thus why they ride undead horses, instead of creating ice spider creatures to carry them around.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

New theory...

Evolution of a White Walker:

1) Weirwood chopped down/burnt that is sustaining a Greenseer.

2) Weirwood begins to die and petrify, and is no longer able to sustain the Greenseer, so the Greenseer goes looking for a new host.

3) Baby with Magical Blood is sacrificed to the Old Gods of the wood.

4) Baby receives the spirit of a dieing Greenseer and a touch of Ice Magic is used to keep it's flesh from deteriorating, and the Greenseer lives it's "second life" within this host.

5) Baby is hooked up to the (Frozen?) Weirwood at the Heart of Winter.

6) Babies spirit learns Ice/Air Magic (Aeromancy), Necromancy, etc from it's Greenseer inhabitant and the weirnet...

7) Baby ages slower but learns faster, as it grows older more and more of it's flesh is replaced by ice magic until basically only remnants of the blood remains and at this point is fully a White Walker.

8) When the baby's body is consumed by time, the White Walker can no longer connect to the Weirnet and starts walking the woods looking for a new host. It can use Necromancy to raise the dead to do it's bidding, and Aeromancy to create camouflaging armor and weaponry to protect themselves from Men. They also use Aeromancy to create the unnatural cold to sustain themselves, and thus the cold comes with them and their wights.

The Story behind the White Walkers, the Wall and the Long Night:

First Men and CotF make the Pact. It requires a sacrifice to the Old Gods from each of the 100 Kingdoms of the First Men every year. In exchange the Kings of the First Men were given an infusion of Magical Blood (either through inter-breeding with CotF or through the magical power of the Pact). They are to chop down no more weirwoods, and the woods are to be left to the CotF to live in peace.

The first Andals start arriving in Westeros, and bring with them the Seven, and start chopping down Weirwoods again. The dying Greenseers call out to a few humans with magical blood to bring them their certain babies as sacrifices (Human skinchangers/Greenseers), instead of killing them in front of a Heart Tree, and agree that no harm will come to them (ie the line that would later become the Starks, and basically the same deal that Craster was still honoring).

The Greenseers take these children as their new hosts and attach them to the weirnet and start using Ice Magic to preserve their bodies, creating the first White Walkers. As time passes, and men turn away from the Old Gods and more Andals arrive (though still not many) and burn/cut down more weirwoods until finally, the required 100 sacrifices are no longer occurring, the White Walkers begin to use Necromancy to raise the dead to create an Army, and create a magical Winter to sustain their Ice Magic bodies as they march South seeking vengeance for the breaking of the Pact.

The Last Hero (who I also believe to be Azor Ahai and Brandon the first Stark) is a King of Winter, and travels to seek out the CotF. He and his family still follow the Old Ways, and he is protected because his line still sent sacrifices to the Old Gods. He finds them, and convinces them to help humanity versus the White Walkers, and is told of Obsidian which is the counter to the Ice Magic used to sustain their bodies, and is told he must forge Lightbringer. I believe Nissa Nissa was an early priestess of fire, who was watching Azor Ahai from afar via glass candles, and came to Westeros to help him. She was similar to what we see now in Mel. He forges Lightbringer by plunging the sword he forged through her heart, and when he pulled it out, it caught fire permanently, similar to how Beric uses blood to make his sword catch fire.

Brandon Stark then founded the Night's Watch of 100 men that he equipped with Obsidian, and he led them against the Others and the Wights, fighting them all the way back to the Land of Always Winter, where a second Pact was made. This Pact involved erecting the Wall, and manning it with the 100 sacrifices required by the original Pact, but instead of blood sacrifices, these would be symbolic sacrifices, and so the Night's Watch would say their vows, pledging their lives to service of the wall. Everything to the south of the Wall would become the domain of men, meaning weirwoods could be destroyed, and no blood sacrifice would be required, but everything North of the Wall would remain under the original Pact. The two exceptions to this were the Isle of Faces and the Weirwood at Winterfell, where the humans link South of the Wall to the Old Gods would remain in tact (There must always be a Stark in Winterfell).

Brandon Stark (The Builder, the Last Hero, and Azor Ahai) would build the foundation blocks for the Wall and the Ring Fort around Winterfell, and his descendants would become the Starks and the Kings of Winter.

Those First Men that wanted to continue worshiping the Old Gods would be allowed to live North of the Wall and remain there as long as the Old Ways were followed.

The Starks would honor this new Pact by sending their youngest sons to the Wall to honor the sacrifices, thus why Benjen is there, and why Jon Snow goes there as well, though purely as tradition now, because the second Pact has been long forgotten and is only passed down through legend and tradition.

Why are the White Walkers moving again:

As more and more of the Night's Watch are occupied by Andals (followers of the Seven) and fewer and fewer are followers of the Old Ways, the required 100 "sacrifices" to the Night's Watch have not said their vows before a heart tree, and thus men are not honoring the Pact.

The White Walkers tried to replace Mormont with Jon Snow (who did pledge in front of a Heart Tree) by an attempted assassination. When that didn't work, they attacked him at the Fist. They also started driving all men out of the North since the Second Pact was no longer being honored by men.

However, simultaneously the second piece of the second Pact has also been broken as there is no longer a Stark in Winterfell, thus they are now going to attempt to bypass the wall to put a Stark back on the throne there (unbeknownst to Jon), or to wipe out all of humanity and take back Westeros from them since the second Pact was broken, they are not bound to stay behind it.

[wolfmaid7]

Cool, thank you :) there's nothing to forgive.

I must admit that while I don't completely agree with your take on the Others, I appreciate how unique it is.

Just for the sake of others reading the post, I've edited in my questions before each of your answers:

1. I guess since they have spent thousands of years adjacent to human villages, I thought they might have picked up on a word or two ;)
2. So if Popsicles are aware Wights kill people, they left poor innocent Will - who never raised arms against them - in a very difficult position. And Gared was already long gone, a-horse I would guess, so they wouldn't have had a chance to show him such mercy.
3. Then how did Waymar challenge him to a duel? Crackles wasn't even intimidated! You do not for other reader to infer things about the WW from Will's homocentric POV (aka, the text of the book), and yet you have created a behavioral disposition for the WW based on things unwritten.
4. Well what isn't subjective when it comes to interpreting things that do not exist? We have no parallel to draw from. No history of WW roaming the forests to delve into their means of communication. And considering you and I are both people, as are most of the commenters in these forums, how are we supposed to interpret these things in a non-human way? Moreover, the only source of data to make any sort of judgement, is Will's prologue POV. I would say that his POV counts for something, considering it's in the book.
5. So it was a good clean fight between a white shadow that moves without making sound and wields a sword that shatters steel swords - and - a scared human shivering and brandishing nothing more than a stick that will crumble. It's the Mountain vs Reek holding a liquorice stick.
6. I have a feeling his cultural understanding of what laughter sounds like is, well, laughter. A WW talking, then all the fellas having a good chuckle doesn't seem easily mistaken, no matter how foreign or alien the source. I think if Will didn't understand what the heck was going on, to the point that it is even possible to mistake "well fought" for a 6 WW laughing at the slain (which I doubt), he wouldn't just jump to the conclusion that they are simply having a laugh. It seem to me you are attributing human characteristics to the WW even faster than I am saying Will could discern what they were up to with only his human mind to guide him. And while we are both being subjective, I have Will's POV to support my claim. Until we have a WW POV chapter, and our eyes all glow blue, we are stuck viewing westeros through the lens of humanity.

Now for your points...

1. Again, they have been around man, giant, and singers for quite some time. To simply assume they would not have made any effort to understand the world in which they find themselves, and not attempt to understand these humans (and humanoid races) they distantly resemble and exist with, seems far fetched. That, to me, further undermines your feelings on them. They obviously do not fear people. They know they have superior weaponry. Yet they will slide forward and kill us where we stand for raising a stick above our heads that cannot harm them. If they didn't wish humankind ill, why not attempt to understand things like what arose with Waymar so as not to kill unnecessarily?
2. Well they walk on two legs, carry swords, wear armor, and appear much like men in size, shape and build. They also manifest audible tones that seem to be speech. They manifest these other tones which at least one fella, Will, thought was laughter. I think Ghost or Summer might be better suited to interpreting the speech of hyenas for you.
3. Well it's hard to escape our own cultural contexts, but no. I read the words GRRM gave Will, and he judged the WW to be laughing. I read the book. And the only data I have to understand what happened is Will's account. Without a conflicting view, I see no concrete alternative.
4. Now I'm not saying that Wights are only created via death by WW, but Torwynd's death and reanimation happened off page. Wighted-Thistle was seen after V6S's wolf pack saw blue eyed shadows moving through the woods. And again, her death happened off page. So again, I'm not saying that Wights are only created via death by WW, but we can't rule out WW involvement in Torwynd and Thistle's deaths and/or reanimation as wights. In either case, it doesn't matter because the WW know that by killing any human, they are sending forth a wight to kill humans. Given their lack of interest in understanding human speech, emotional distress signals, etc, I'd say that's a recipe for genocide.

1. No...We have Leaf as an example who spent time with humans and leaned for a reason, and in reverse we have the Giants who spent time with Mance and Co and still never learned.Wun Wun started to learn at CB but somene was teaching him.

2.You miss my point just like we can't assume Hyena's laugh,you nor i nor Will can say it was laughter which is incorrect by the way the actual text is :"The Other said something in a language Will did not know,his voice was like ice crackling on a winter lake,and the words were mocking.Even harder to determine is he was truly doing that.

3.GRRM above all is writing about the human condition which encompasses the conflict of man himself and how he percieves and interacts with the world around him.So the point of the POV's is to highlight just that,and like in real life the conclusions derived from us based on the above can be wrong and in this story has been prooven to be wrong countelss times.We see it when Jon meets the infamous Wildlings who Old Nan made into monsters.

4. We had his fathers take on it,Towin who was sickly went to bed "in the camp" and woke up dead...simple as that,unless you are proposing some WW tiptoed over x amout of people to find him.It does matter because it is nonsensical,to invlove them in every death Man,wolf,bear,things in the water.They would have to be clairvoyant and i don't think that's so.Ok humans know kiling humans would turn them into Wights ...so what? If Will wasn't so scared and waited up in the tree for a long time,he would have been fine.

I think we've already established that the term 'Others' can refer to any of the 3 races of Others: Others Proper, White Walkers, Wights. All appear white, have bright burning blue eyes, bring about chilling sensations, and apparently have an honor system! LOL

Seriously though, I think Old Nan agreed because Other is the umbrella term for our 3-Blast friends.

ETA, I'm tired. See you all after R'hllor sends the darkness away.

I believe Others originally meant just those turned to Wights and over the millinea the term got all messed up.

While I respect Wolfmaid's theory that the white walkers are quite separate from the wights I cannot agree with it or accept that the minor textual "loopholes" cited justify contradicting the unambiguous texts that cast them as wicked and leading the armies of wights.

The question of language is not germane; whether they laughed, danced or sang those walkers in the prologue were out to kill Ser Waymar from the start. His challenge was a response to that, not the reason for it, and likewise in the end booby-trapping his body so that it rose up and killed Will indicates a macabre sense of humour rather than a sense of honour.

BC i disagree this is not minor textual evidence or loopholes this is more than 15 solid textual anomalies,certainly stronger than the loopholes that lead some of us (including) me to conclude that the COTF and men never fought side by side.Furthermore,the text is ubber ambiguous in a lot of places and downright contradictory.

I disagree 100% that he was out to kill Waymar from the get go,why leave Will who i'm sure the other five saw in the tree? Or have one ot two go after Gared. Why go directly after Small Paul,but not attempt to kill Sam and Grenn. For those who take the show as some type of canon. Why look Sam dead in the eye and leave him,push him aside to go after Gilly and not kill him.Oh wait disarm him and then push him aside.Ser Puddles can't strategically think wait chubby and his friend might be a problem,but they booby trapped Wights??? Nuhhh

The fact that Sam on the retreat forces himself not to think about the Others suggests that they were indeed at the Fist, triggering the three-honk alarm.

This is and example of people again seeing Wights and thinking WWs....Contradicted by the following:

1. Sam's letter to CB makes no mention of them,even when speaking to Jon the only mention was of Ser Puddles and from his reaction it was the very first time he saw a WW.

2.They only come when it's cold."

"Yes," said Sam, "but is it the cold that brings the wights, or the wights

that bring the cold?"

"Who cares?" Grenn's axe sent wood chips flying. "They come together, that's

what matters. Hey, now that we know that dragonglass kills them, maybe they

won't come at all. Maybe they're frightened of us now!" (Wait what? who is Grenn talking about?)

Sam wished he could believe that, but it seemed to him that when you were

dead, fear had no more meaning than pain or love or duty. He wrapped his hands

around his legs, sweating under his layers of wool and leather and fur.The

dragonglass dagger had melted the pale thing in the woods, true ... but Grenn

was talking like it would do the same to the wights. We don't know that, he

thought. We don't know anything, really.

Two things Sam first described Ser Puddles as "the pale thing in the forest".Indicating again it is the first time he saw it and he did not identify it as a WW until he got back to CB and read in the annals about them riding dead horses.Prooving again while the battle was taking place on the Fist he nor Grenn WWs and he didn't know what the "pale thing" in the forest was until CB.

Lastly and pretty clearly,Grenn's query of "do you think "the wights" are coming back" no mention of Others.They did not see anything like Ser Puddles on the Fist they assumed based on tales that the Others/WWS are responsible so they must be there even though no one saw anything.

I guess I I don't see how her agreeing with Bran that the White Walkers are Others makes them seem different?

I think George and Sam were just using flowery language and to link the old stories of "white walkers moving through the woods" to Ser Puddles that Sam killed with Dragonglass. Obviously Grenn is confusing the wights, however.

But I'm having a hard time seeing how you get from an infant to a child if the "white shadow" explanation is correct. Would the infant become a shadow immediately, and at first the Popsicle just sits there sucking on it's toes until it gains enough cognitive ability to allow it to walk around, and swing a "sword", etc? Is there a White Walker school somewhere that teaches them how to speak and trains them to fight?

Again, the story is told from POV, so IF there are White Walkers behind the Wights, driving them and controlling them, we wouldn't see them unless someone first got through the wights, which is pretty unlikely, or someone fleed before them, moving faster than their wights were capable of moving, and so a few of them range out on undead horse or foot at a faster pace to pick off stragglers, which is exactly what we see in the books, and thus Ser Puddles.

In the show, they had Sam hide behind a rock, and the entire army passes by, and the White Walker/Popsicles are at the back on undead horses leading the wights from the rear.

Interestingly, one of them sees Sam, but passes on by. Now I suspect this happened because Sam said his vows in front of a Heart Tree to the Old Gods, and thus why when the Others break through the Wall, why Jon will also be left alone while most of the rest of the men will be slaughtered.

Again, show canon versus book, but I think it's interesting.

1.She appeased Bran based again on what he thinks,her entire conversation changed and she was talking about two different things...The WWs who walk through the woods which shows that is normal.Her description is not a violent one just of this thing that walks around .When she starts talking about the Others we hear they came for the first time ,they were undead and cold...two different things.

2.TOJ that is not flowery language as i pointed out to URRAX ,Sam until Ser Puddles showed up had not seen a WW.There is major confusion and that is the problem.What Grenn did is what a lot of people have done in this story.

3.I will use three example.V6 as his wolves who had a good vantage point on the crest did not see WWs,Sam and Gilly and the Wight horde no WWs they were definitely on their own. Bran and Co,these things are driven my the white cold/mist/fog which is the problem:

The Cold Part 2

First to reiterate the theory of an entity that we have coined "the cold" as the true culprit behind what is raising the Wights and that the White Walkers are not responsible for this.A reminder of the texts:

"That won't help you none when the White cold comes,Gilly had spoken of the White cold as well"(Sam.asos,pg.445).

"He gives the boys to the gods.Come the White cold,he does"(ACOK,pg.370).

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

Snowflakes swirled form the dark a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them,the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced up a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold. Beneath a grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves.Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in,impossibly cold and one by one the fires went out"(ADWD,Mel,pg.408).

A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up how do you fights a mist crow? Shadows with teeth air so cold it hurts to breath, like a knife inside your chest you do not know, you cannot know can your sword cut cold?( ADWD,Jon Chp 58).

Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky(Mel,ADWD).

What's cool about the last quote especially, is the answer to who/what controls the dead is clearly expressed.All this is already expressed in the OP but i feel restating some of the points on "the cold" will be made clear with this comparison.

The Sorrows

The Shy Maid moved through the fog like a blind man groping his way down an unfamiliar hall. Septa Lemore was praying. The mists muffled the sound of her voice, making it seem small and

hushed.

“I do not like this place,” Haldon Halfmaester muttered. “Frightened of a little fog?” mocked Tyrion, though in truth there was quite a lot of fog. At the prow of the Shy Maid, Young Griff stood with the third pole, to push them away from hazards as they loomed up through the mists.

“This is no common fog, Hugor Hill,” Ysilla insisted. “It stinks of sorcery, as you would know if you had a nose to smell it......There are restless spirits in the air here and tormented souls below the water.”

This was a bad place, rank with despair and death. Ysilla is not wrong. This fog is not natural. Something foul grew in the waters here, and festered in the air.“You should not make mock,” warned Ysilla. “The whispering dead hate the warm and quick and ever seek for more damned souls to join them.”

“The Shrouded Lord has ruled these mists since Garin’s day,” said Yandry. “Some say that he himself is Garin, risen from his watery grave.”

“The dead do not rise,(how wrong is he?)” insisted Haldon Halfmaester, “and no man lives a thousand years. Yes, there is a Shrouded Lord. There have been a score of them. When one dies another takes his place.

“Aye, I’ve heard that too,” said Duck, “but there’s another tale I like better. The one that says he’s not like t’other stone men, that he started as a statue till a grey woman came out of the fog and kissed him with lips as cold as ice.” (does this story kind of sound familiar)

Stone eyes are blind eyes, thought Tyrion. The mortal form of greyscale began in the extremities, he knew: a tingling in a fingertip, a toenail turning black, a loss of feeling. As the numbness crept into the hand, or stole past the foot and up the leg, the flesh stiffened and grew cold and the victim’s skin took on a greyish hue, resembling stone.(Does this sound familiar).

5 The baby thing you misunderstand me i said i have a problem with this,i believe they are produced as we have seen them full blown.However,i was following the arguement train of thought about the babies which is where you might of thought what you did

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Ah yes, I remember it well.

How odd of me not to consider the premise that there are multiple races of Popsicles (root beer, grape, cherry, lemon) which no doubt struggle for supremacy in a medieval hierarchy in my freezer.

:agree: and would just like to point out again how unusual it was for GRRM to interpret Waymar's death scene for us, instead of asking us to do so based on raw data.

He could simply have shown us the Popsicles descending on dying Waymar and stabbing him repeatedly as a group; that would have sufficed to persuade me they are not amiable and jolly.

But instead he went the extra mile and wrote, flat out,

...which is difficult to misinterpret, however hard one may try.

Waymar was an Andal, and should not have been North of the Wall, as that area was reserved for followers of the Old Gods.

[Frey family reunion]

Edit: screwed up the quotes

[Black Crow]

Just to change the subject slightly an intriguing thought occurred to me. We've spoken before about how the faces of the white walkers in the show resemble those carved in the weirwoods, which naturally leads on to speculation as to a connection such as the one hinted at by GRRM. In discussing their show interpretation again up above reference was also made to their rather skeletal and generally dessicated appearance.

Compare this description...

His body was so skeletal and his clothes so rotted that at first Bran took him for another corpse... What skin the corpse lord showed was white, save for a bloody blotch that crept up his neck onto his cheek. His white hair was fine and thin as root hair and long enough to brush against the earthen floor... A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through.

Bloodraven, or the Three-Eyed Raven has been cast and is to appear along with a "Child of the Forest" in this series. Not impprobably the closing scene of the series will feature Bran coming face to face with something looking uncommonly like a white walker...

If the the Craster's sons business caused consternation amongst viewers, what will this do?

[Black Crow]

Waymar was an Andal, and should not have been North of the Wall, as that area was reserved for followers of the Old Gods.

The Royces are First Men and Ser Waymar's father Bronze Yohn is so-called because he wears that bronze armour incised with their runes. Waymar was not an Andal

[Frey family reunion]

I totally agree on the "popsicles" being some sort of frozen air "golem". As for an Aeromancer, Necromancer, and Shadowbinder, I would argue that there's simply a magical being/collective that understands magic (including Skinchanging, Aeromancy, Necromancy, Shadowbinding, Aquamancy ie water magic, and likely Pyromancy) better than the most powerful sorcerers there have ever been.

I suspect the Greenseers/Old Gods had access to all of that information, thus how they were able to call upon the hammer of the waters, and were able to smash the Arm of Dorne to combat the First Men.

When said Greenseers weirwoods were chopped down, the roots of the tree begin to petrify and die, and their bodies begin to die as well. Knowing that they will pass into nothing, they use their magical abilities to find new hosts that would allow them to re-engage into the Weirnet. There aren't enough CotF left in the world, so their only remaining source of hosts with the magical blood capable of inhabiting are men. But men's lives are too short, thus the need to "preserve" their bodies through the use of Ice Magic.

Oh wow, here's a thought...

What if these hosts are in fact Craster's sons (and Starks sons, and other babies with magical blood down through the ages), but as their bodies deteriorate, more and more of the body gets replaced by "aeromancy" and thus they become more and more frozen air as they age? Thus why the Night's King in the show has a different appearance. His body is fresher (likely one of Craster's first sons), than the popsicle we see bring the child to him, who is almost entirely made of ice and snow. As they age, and as more of their flesh becomes Ice, their power weakens so they have to spend most of their power maintaining their own form, and thus why they ride undead horses, instead of creating ice spider creatures to carry them around.

You certainly could be correct, it could be one extremely powerful being behind this. I just think the appearance of the White Walker the fact that they engage in swordplay, ect speaks to a more "mundane" origin for these current White Walkers that we have been introduced to. Which is why I think it is likely a collective group of sorcerers and swordsmen (Mance perhaps being the frontman) behind the White Walkers. Now I do think the White Walkers we've seen are only the tip of the iceberg (pun intended) and there could be a greater, older and more powerful evil waiting in the wings.

I do think it is likely that the greenseers may ultimately be the driving force behind this, but I think they are using human conspirators (we know of at least one in Bloodraven) to help the initial stage of their plan. I just can't imagine the Children being the architects behind the White Walkers we've seen so far. Of course we do have Leaf out and about Westeros, so she could have possibly picked up some ideas of armored knights and swordplay.

As for your last point, I just refuse to attribute too much significance in HBO's visual effects.

[Frey family reunion]

The Royces are First Men and Ser Waymar's father Bronze Yohn is so-called because he wears that bronze armour incised with their runes. Waymar was not an Andal

Agreed, the Royces were grey eyed First Men as well (much like the Starks). Another poster theorized that it was his First Man's blood (King's Blood as well?) that they were attracted to.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Just to change the subject slightly an intriguing thought occurred to me. We've spoken before about how the faces of the white walkers in the show resemble those carved in the weirwoods, which naturally leads on to speculation as to a connection such as the one hinted at by GRRM. In discussing their show interpretation again up above reference was also made to their rather skeletal and generally dessicated appearance.

Compare this description...

His body was so skeletal and his clothes so rotted that at first Bran took him for another corpse... What skin the corpse lord showed was white, save for a bloody blotch that crept up his neck onto his cheek. His white hair was fine and thin as root hair and long enough to brush against the earthen floor... A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through.

Bloodraven, or the Three-Eyed Raven has been cast and is to appear along with a "Child of the Forest" in this series. Not impprobably the closing scene of the series will feature Bran coming face to face with something looking uncommonly like a white walker...

If the the Craster's sons business caused consternation amongst viewers, what will this do?

Which is why I think the popsicles are spirits of the Greenseers.... They are trying to recreate their own bodies out of Ice...

And While I agree with you there are stark similarities between Bloodraven and the Others, there are also some significant differences, being that the weirwood is sustaining his body, whereas Ice/Snow appear to be sustaining the White Walkers. Thus I don't think the White Walkers are the same entities as the CotF, they are instead the attempt of old Greenseers to hold on to their old lives that were ripped from them when their host weirwood was chopped down or burnt.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

The Royces are First Men and Ser Waymar's father Bronze Yohn is so-called because he wears that bronze armour incised with their runes. Waymar was not an Andal

My mistake on their lineage, but do they follow the Old Gods or the Seven?

Perhaps though they are descendents of the First Men, they rejected the Old Gods and submitted to follow the Seven, thus how they survived the Andalization of the Vale?

If that's the case, then I would alter my statement to the following:

Waymar was a follower of the Seven and a heretic to the Old Gods, and should not have been North of the Wall, as that area was reserved for followers of the Old Gods.

[Frey family reunion]

My mistake on their lineage, nut do they follow the Old Gods or the Seven?

I'm not sure but their motto is "We Remember". Kind of makes me think that they still hold to the Old Gods even in the Vale.

[Melifeather]

Right, my point was that if they are a whole new creature created from the life essence of a son of Craster, then they're not really Craster's Sons after all.

On the other hand, if they are indeed Craster's sons actual spirits bound to golems of ice, then how long does it take to go from newborn to full grown Other in an Ice Golem, and where do they learn to fight with swords (or even learn what swords and armor look like).

For that reason, I don't think either of those are correct. I think there are spirits inhabiting the bodies of Craster's Sons who saw all of time from the eyes of a weirwood. Saw Knights and Wars, saw the Pact being signed, and saw it broken.

If Craster's sons are being used or sacrificed to create White Walkers, they can still be called his "sons". I don't know why they would cease being his sons if they are necessary for their creation.

Your right, many readers do pick up on it as being a red herring...

Most intuitive readers have known since book one that the Others are tied to House Stark, of Winterfell (the House that GRRM provides all the background on)… The idea of GRRM's greatest Intrigue being linked to House Craster (not the Starks) is just silly & in no way on par with the writing in the rest of the Series. So, you are very correct many of the more astute readers identify Craster for what he is - a red herring designed to protect GRRM's true intrigues until the time comes for them to be revealed… You will experience this all first hand as soon as the next book comes out.

:commie:

I admire your confidence!

But why fight at all? Why not give Ser Waymar a 'hello nod' and be on their way? I'm very familiar with the prologue, but for me it feels more like a cat watching a mouse flutter about for sport. Ser Waymar has his new sword, his new mail, his fine gloves, and his arrogance. This amused the Other. He knew the fight was already over. The Other's parry was almost lazy comes to mind. The other Others stood back because they were not needed.

"snip"

So Waymar says, "Come no farther," yet the Other slids forward with a longsword in hand. Sounds aggressive if you ask me. Then, the Other strikes the first blow. Ser Waymar stays in a very defensive position, checking blows, while the Other attacks. It sounds as honorable as the Mountain picking a fight with Reek holding a quivering stick over his head.

And after the pack has had it's fun, they laugh. Honorable?

I quite agree with you that the White Walkers are not honorable. I too disagree with Wolfmaid's theories, but that's OK. I don't have to convince her of mine in order to feel that my ideas have merit. Both of you should let your opinions stand for themselves. Make your arguments and move on.

...Sorry....when editing I accidently deleted whomever asked the following question:

......Why do you think popsicles are always reducing their combat effectiveness when engaging with enemies?

My reply: Confidence. The White Walkers are confident in their perceived superior abilities.

Close, pretty close I'd say but making two points.

One and two are one and the same. Both Old Nan and Sam refer to the lot who came in the Long Night as white walkers and they ride dead horses, not spiders.

As to the wights, while I won't quarrel with your definition I think its significant that when they attack the Fist the Watch are alerted by the triple blast for Others. Wolfmaid will stoutly assert that there is no evidence Craster's boys were present at all at the Fist. I disagree, but its clear that the appearance of wights was enough to trigger that particular alarm.

:agree:

[Black Crow]

I'm not sure but their motto is "We Remember". Kind of makes me think that they still hold to the Old Gods even in the Vale.

And the runes...