Heresy 118 The Shadows

[TheTowerOfJoy]

If the fire side uses "light" to create a dark shadow, then the ice side must be using "darkness" or maybe the reflected light from the moon, to create a white shadow...."dark" meaning "death" of the babe. The complete use of the child's life to create a different sort of life. A reincarnation of sorts.

I quite agree that a White Walker is "birthed" into a full-grown shadow, able to grasp a sword.

While it's certainly an interesting theory, and could even been correct for all I know, I just can't get past going directly from an infant that has near zero motor control and even comprehension ability to a walking talking creature that is apparently a pretty decent swordsman immediately. If these "golems" or "white shadows" are some magical manifestation made from the babies, then they're not really Craster's sons at all, but are just separate forms of life, so to call them Craster's sons doesn't really make sense in that case.

It does however fit with the original "Neverborn" description, and it does fit with them being inhuman and not having a "culture", though it does make them pretty much evil incarnate with no real motivation other than the killing of the living and the raising of their corpses as weapons, which seems a little too contrived for GRRM's world of grey characters.

[Urrax2]

To be fair, he appeared to move after he was "frozen", so I don't think he was frozen at all, and also, his eyes turned blue, just like the Others and the Wights.

Fair enough, but the fact still is, we don't know what was happening.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Fair enough, but the fact still is, we don't know what was happening.

Certainly true, though we technically don't know what specifically happened with Dany to cause the birth of her dragons, yet there they are, and I suspect we won't get much more on the creation of white walkers either.

[Urrax2]

Certainly true, though we technically don't know what specifically happened with Dany to cause the birth of her dragons, yet there they are, and I suspect we won't get much more on the creation of white walkers either.

I suspect we'll learn a lot more about both of these matters (if we live long enough).

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I suspect we'll learn a lot more about both of these matters (if we live long enough).

I'm not so sure we will. GRRM doesn't seem to want to get bogged down in the details of how the magic works, or what the recipe was for creating 3 dragons.

I think we'll learn more about where the Others came from, and who or what is creating them/motivating them now, but the specific process of their creation may be left to the reader to interpret.

[Harlan]

New thought. Kind of a combination of CS=P and P=S. Lets imagine for a second that a woman exists that has the ability to make shadow babies (like mel makes) but has no idea what the ability is called or how to actually control the shadows. What would such a person call their shadow babies? Perhaps she would call them sons?

[wolfmaid7]

Not sure how you can determine between the shadow using Stannis's dream, versus Stannis controlling it through his dream.

As for not having seen more than 6... in one scene there was six and in another only one. Does the scene with only one indicate that the other five never existed? Of course not.

Lack of having seen more than 6 doesn't mean that there aren't more than six, especially in a book told from first hand perspective. When the eventual attack/conflict at the wall occurs, hopefully we'll see something closer to the extent of their numbers.

Because of Stannis confusion, he dreamed it and repeatedly told himself it was a dream. He didn't believe he was responsible, he was clearly unerved by how he dreamed it and it happened.Again what happened to Renly was a super imposed renacment the day they parlayed.

As to the WWs its been how many books, they have revealed themselves to be nothing more than the WWs that walked through the woods during winter.I think if their were more we would have seen more by now, especially after Puddles got shanked. That would have been the time to call in the troops.

[wolfmaid7]

New thought. Kind of a combination of CS=P and P=S. Lets imagine for a second that a woman exists that has the ability to make shadow babies (like mel makes) but has no idea what the ability is called or how to actually control the shadows. What would such a person call their shadow babies? Perhaps she would call them sons?

Techincally that would be right.Now such a character exists in the Night's Queen could she have done with the Night's king as Mel did with Stannis. He gave his Soul and she made the WWs.He was a warrior himself, so she birth him warriors.But may be they hung along longer becsuse the NK was a Warg and that soul just don't disappear easily

I fear if Mel drew from Jon, the Shadows created would be real real problems.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Because of Stannis confusion, he dreamed it and repeatedly told himself it was a dream. He didn't believe he was responsible, he was clearly unerved by how he dreamed it and it happened.Again what happened to Renly was a super imposed renacment the day they parlayed.

I would argue that he was controlling it on a subconscious level without realizing it was actually happening.

As to the WWs its been how many books, they have revealed themselves to be nothing more than the WWs that walked through the woods during winter.I think if their were more we would have seen more by now, especially after Puddles got shanked. That would have been the time to call in the troops.

Well, it takes a very long time to move large armies, and even longer when they are undead without full range of motion, not to mention, we couldn't possibly have a POV showing them without basically killing said POV. Jon/Ghost and Bran/Tree may be exceptions to that, but we're just now to that point in the story. I think we'll be seeing them very soon in TWoW, and the climax will involve the wall either falling or being breached by said WW's and their undead horde.

Though, I personally think it could be Patchface that ends up letting them through somehow.

[JRRStark]

Is Jon going to be a white shadow, lying on his cold bed and all warmth ebbing from him only to be awoken in a manner similar to the white walkers. Afterall he keeps dreaming of the crypts etc. He is the balance both ice and fire. fire is the life and ice death perhaps. A bittersweet ending as when the balance is restored (or reconciled) he must come to an end. This may also fit with white walkers not been all evil, or indeed evil at all, just different. Not suggesting Jon is to become a white walker merely to be kept alive by this method aka coldhands not been a evil wright but seemingly been animated or kept alive by a similar method to the wrights. As a WW type being he certainly would be a white shadow casting a huge shadow on the wall and all things related. His direwolf is also 'ghost' just like Lady Sansa is 'Lady' Arya 'Nymeria etc

[Melifeather]

While it's certainly an interesting theory, and could even been correct for all I know, I just can't get past going directly from an infant that has near zero motor control and even comprehension ability to a walking talking creature that is apparently a pretty decent swordsman immediately. If these "golems" or "white shadows" are some magical manifestation made from the babies, then they're not really Craster's sons at all, but are just separate forms of life, so to call them Craster's sons doesn't really make sense in that case.

It does however fit with the original "Neverborn" description, and it does fit with them being inhuman and not having a "culture", though it does make them pretty much evil incarnate with no real motivation other than the killing of the living and the raising of their corpses as weapons, which seems a little too contrived for GRRM's world of grey characters.

I don't think it's contrived at all. They are being made for a yet unknown purpose.

Sacrificing the babes and using their life to create a White Walker doesn't necessarily mean that their brains, (if they have one) or their consciousness is that of a babe. A whole new creature is being made.

Is Jon going to be a white shadow, lying on his cold bed and all warmth ebbing from him only to be awoken in a manner similar to the white walkers. Afterall he keeps dreaming of the crypts etc. He is the balance both ice and fire. fire is the life and ice death perhaps. A bittersweet ending as when the balance is restored (or reconciled) he must come to an end. This may also fit with white walkers not been all evil, or indeed evil at all, just different. Not suggesting Jon is to become a white walker merely to be kept alive by this method aka coldhands not been a evil wright but seemingly been animated or kept alive by a similar method to the wrights. As a WW type being he certainly would be a white shadow casting a huge shadow on the wall and all things related. His direwolf is also 'ghost' just like Lady Sansa is 'Lady' Arya 'Nymeria etc

More than once a character in the books has wondered what the White Walkers want. Jon's transformation may provide the first insight we'll have that answers this question. I don' t think Jon's transformation will be exactly like the White Walkers. I think he will be more like the Nights King with having ice inside, much like Daenerys has fire inside.

[wolfmaid7]

Context is indeed everything and this context GRRM was talking about depicting the white walkers

It's more than thatit seems what he did is no different than what Old Nan did with Bran.He spoke from the point of view of the perception of the arist.But again quotes like this among many is telling me Old Nan is speaking of two different things.The WWs of the woods and the Others:If Old Nan's tales according to GRRM are correct then the interpretation of them is wrong.

“Oh, my sweet summer child,” Old Nan said quietly, “what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”

“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.

“The Others,” Old Nan agreed. “Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks.” Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, “So, child. This is the sort of story you like?”

“Well,” Bran said reluctantly, “yes, only...

Old Nan nodded. “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins.

Again,the tone of the story and the characters she is speaking of seem different.From her tone Its seems the WWs walking through the woods is normal.Then when she speaks of Others the tone changes to this thing that showed up for the first time that sounds like Wights.

Actually, he has invariably -- no exceptions -- meant the Popsicles when he says "Others" in interviews.

The context is certainly clear here:

Two points here.

1. The quote is not that GRRM said they don't have a culture. He said what we see above: He "doesn't know if they have a culture."

2. If he had ever intended anything involving an Icehenge/altar, the above quote would be a lie, and he is remarkably and consistently honest about this sort of thing in my knowledge.

That's quite true.

And you can tell who the "some" are by the fact that they persist in believing the show and books are telling the same story in this respect... while denying that they are telling the same story about the Wall having been built by men, the CotF having fought with men against the Popsicles, etc., as the show repeatedly asserts.

This form of cherry-picking -- that some evidence from the show proves X about the books, but we can conveniently dismiss other evidence that is problematic for our pet theories -- is pretty clearly a form of denial.

You misunderstand me,i don't think its as elaborate as what we saw in the show with alters etc and all that stuff. But the fact that they have a language,even looking at how they do battle,weaponry and armor indicates that they do have a culture.GRRM said they are a different sought of life and continuing with the Shadow theme they may be examples of some type of magical cloning of Shadows. So the culture is not a product of evolution but mimicry,but a culture nevertheless.

If the fire side uses "light" to create a dark shadow, then the ice side must be using "darkness" or maybe the reflected light from the moon, to create a white shadow...."dark" meaning "death" of the babe. The complete use of the child's life to create a different sort of life. A reincarnation of sorts.

I quite agree that a White Walker is "birthed" into a full-grown shadow, able to grasp a sword.

Its a possibility it has to do with the "lights" used,Mel is keen on fire ,but maybe for the cold versions the moonlight is to them as fire is to Mel.A shadowbinder using a different sourse.

From those two lines, it sounds like GRENN is confused between the wights and the Others, but Sam is not. Sam clearly understands that the Others are the "pale things in the woods" that can be killed by Dragonglass. The bit about the cold isn't as significant to me, as the cold appears to come with both the Others and the Wights.

Really? I did not get he thought that was an Other/WW at all ,else why not say so? Why not "think" -seeing as we were getting insight into his thoughts- that hey that was a WW or an Other. Saying "pale thing in the woods" shows he did not really know what it was.What Sam reconized is the error of Grenn's reasoning which was to lump them together and assume the Dragonglass would work for both.

I would argue that he was controlling it on a subconscious level without realizing it was actually happening.

Well, it takes a very long time to move large armies, and even longer when they are undead without full range of motion, not to mention, we couldn't possibly have a POV showing them without basically killing said POV. Jon/Ghost and Bran/Tree may be exceptions to that, but we're just now to that point in the story. I think we'll be seeing them very soon in TWoW, and the climax will involve the wall either falling or being breached by said WW's and their undead horde.

Though, I personally think it could be Patchface that ends up letting them through somehow.

I wouldn't argue, but i would agree with you,predicated on the dream he was having.Which is my point the Shadow derived its action based on Stannis's subconsciousness.No way awake Stannis would kill his bro,but it was a secret desire,that is the danger of Mel's Shadow binding.Allowing those negative dark passions to be manifest.

We had Sam and Grenn,We had Sam and we had Bran and co .We had Mel's visions and the Wights "on their own" seem to handling themselves getting form point A to B ,sweeping over villages,killing,chilling quite nicley.

It would be interesting to finally see( though i'm sure we are not going to get it) WWs leading Wights to attack humans.

When Stannis attacked the Wildlings V6 through the Eagle saw it and made the statement " there is something coming from the East" ,Morna in response said "East? the Wights are behind us."

That statement by what is missing from her utterence and what is said speaks volumes.I guess in the comming books we will know once and for all if the WWs are responsible for the Wight attacks and movements or if as i theorize "the white cold/mist/fog" is driving them.

[Black Crow]

Not sure how you can determine between the shadow using Stannis's dream, versus Stannis controlling it through his dream.

As for not having seen more than 6... in one scene there was six and in another only one. Does the scene with only one indicate that the other five never existed? Of course not.

Lack of having seen more than 6 doesn't mean that there aren't more than six, especially in a book told from first hand perspective. When the eventual attack/conflict at the wall occurs, hopefully we'll see something closer to the extent of their numbers.

I'm quite comfortable with the notion of there being something more than six of them [less Ser Puddles of course] but at best I'd see them in the tens rather than the hundreds. There is no suggestion of there being armies of them back during the Long Night, rather that they were leading armies of wights; riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain

[Balerion06]

I'm conflicted about the WW = shadows idea.

I feel making the Others the antithesis to the Red Priests is simply cleaner and creates for more interesting conflict. Just my opinion though.

[Black Crow]

I'm not so sure we will. GRRM doesn't seem to want to get bogged down in the details of how the magic works, or what the recipe was for creating 3 dragons.

I think we'll learn more about where the Others came from, and who or what is creating them/motivating them now, but the specific process of their creation may be left to the reader to interpret.

I agree and I think we see this also in the case of Othor and Jafer. We don't know how that episode "worked" or even why Othor tried to take out the Lord Commander. Its just something that was necessary in the plot at that particular point in the story and like the hatching of the dragons was "a one time magical event"

[Black Crow]

OK, so continuing to explore the popsicles = shadows theory....

The shadows that we have seen have all been tightly objective based. Stannis' shadow only killed or tried to kill Renly. Then performed similarly with the castallan on Storm's End.

The Popsicles seem rather different though. I don't see any clear objectives with any of their, in book, behavior.

Obviously we are still dramatically limited in that we have only ever seen two corporeal shadows, and both of those shadows were produced in the same way by the same people. There may be other factors related to the production of corporeal shadows that explains the discrepancies in appearance and behavior.... Until we have a better understanding of shadows, these discrepancies are evidence against the P=S theory....

Mel's "shadow babies" were essentially one-shot weapons, not merely Stannis' shadow but a manifestation of his desire to be rid of two particular individuals. I don't believe that Stannis was controlling them inadvertently or otherwise, but he was unwittingly projecting the desire to kill.

The white shadows on the other hand appear to be more of a general use weapon, literally given substance through those bodies of snow and ice and cold. The point of their being the shadows of Craster's children in this context has nothing to do with early motor skills and everything to do with the fact that they are "unformed"; they have no conscience, no concept of morality and ultimately a cruelty which is all the more effective in spreading terror precisely because they have no conception of good or evil.

[wolfmaid7]

I think we have to clarify how the term Shadows is being used in terms of the WWs,that is they may be an extension of someone else.Much like how Stannis's shadow is an extention of him though it is made manifest.

Currently,we have the theories of the WWs being transfomed humans,or Golems or disembodied Greenseers,these all fit that Shadow motif.So its not that they are actuall Shadows.

[Black Crow]

I'm not so sure. I think that they are indeed shadows, drawn out of Craster's sons but given substance, albeit of snow and ice and cold, allowing them to be sustained for longer - cold after all preserves, while Stannis' more ephemeral shadows are consumed by his hatred, disipating when that hatred is spent in the killing of his enemies.

[wolfmaid7]

I'm not so sure. I think that they are indeed shadows, drawn out of Craster's sons but given substance, albeit of snow and ice and cold, allowing them to be sustained for longer - cold after all preserves, while Stannis' more ephemeral shadows are consumed by his hatred, disipating when that hatred is spent in the killing of his enemies.

Crap :dunce: BC thanks for reminding me and calling out that blunder, that is what we were talking about with the double walker analogy......scratch the above comment.

[Voice]

As to what Bran "saw", there is once again a popular but in my view misguided view that what he saw was the said mythical Great Other surrounded by the massed legions of Hell. The massed legions have thus far only amounted to a handful of Craster's sons and my belief is that we are again dealing with shadows; not just the three surrounding his father, but beyond the rainbow a yet more terrible shadow of the future, the destruction of Winterfell and the deaths and destruction of his family.

I think whatever Bran saw beyond the curtain of light was far more terrifying than simply a future without Winterfell. There is some force there, or perhaps 'source' is a better word. The hellish image is pretty cheesy and I don't see GRRM doing something so cliche, but I don't see Bran reacting in such a way if it were simply a threat to his family. He's proven himself braver than that, and besides he was always a fan of the scarier stories. It must have been something powerful.

Or it is UnNed.

Um, no.