"I am the Horn that wakes the sleepers"...

[Minstral]

Just what are the sleepers in the oath of the NW? Whatever they are it appears to be something integral to the order because they use it in their oath, but there appears to be no mention as to what the significance of this part the oath means. It could simply be that as a member of the NW they will always alert their brothers to any danger to the wall. On the other hand I have a feeling that it has to do with how the Horn of Joramum. I find it odd that the Horn was supposedly used to awaken the giants and then build the Wall, while simultaneously being able to destroy it as Mance claims. With the idea in mind that sorcery "is a sword without a hilt", I don't think there would a way to utilize the Horn of Winter by having a pick of a sound to awaken the slumbering and destroy the Wall separately. Instead I think that if the Horn were to be sounded near the Wall it would awaken whatever is potentially sustaining the 700 foot thing, and that would destroy it.

[Leonardo]

...

Now that you mention it, it is a bit weird hehe

I guess it's saying that part of the NW's job is to tell everyone what is coming; if the others come again, it will take EVERYONE, not just the NW working on this problem.

[Ser Pigeon Pie]

I guess it's saying that part of the NW's job is to tell everyone what is coming; if the others come again, it will take EVERYONE, not just the NW working on this problem.

I agree with this. I think one of the their original purposes when the order was formed is to not only defend the realm but to also warn the realm of any threat beyond the whole.

The bitter irony of this is that now no one seems to listen (except Stannis of course)

[Lady Woodland]

Just what are the sleepers in the oath of the NW? Whatever they are it appears to be something integral to the order because they use it in their oath, but there appears to be no mention as to what the significance of this part the oath means. It could simply be that as a member of the NW they will always alert their brothers to any danger to the wall. On the other hand I have a feeling that it has to do with how the Horn of Joramum. I find it odd that the Horn was supposedly used to awaken the giants and then build the Wall, while simultaneously being able to destroy it as Mance claims. With the idea in mind that sorcery "is a sword without a hilt", I don't think there would a way to utilize the Horn of Winter by having a pick of a sound to awaken the slumbering and destroy the Wall separately. Instead I think that if the Horn were to be sounded near the Wall it would awaken whatever is potentially sustaining the 700 foot thing, and that would destroy it.

In light of the end of Jon's chapter in Dance & regarding the decisions he is making the words of the actual Oath need to be separated from the oral Oath, if I can explain - here is the Oath the NW swears:

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come (I: 651. II: 691)

Now a lot has been made that Jon is breaking his Oath by wanting to change up the rules a bit, but I disagree, he is actually in some cases interpreting them more clearly the bolded parts being most relevant. He actually includes the wildings because they are literally of the realm of men, taking mesures to protect them from the WW which he can now see are the real threat.

Also the first bolded part clearly describes what he cannot do, & he hasn't broken those vows.

I agree he joined the wildlings at the instigation of Quorin but that was to infiltrate them & find out what they were up to, however he came back & always intended to (although I admit Ygritte tempted him but hey he's only human & a kid with his first love to boot)

He does intend to march off South to deal with Ramsey & try to rescue (Arya/Mance we think) but he never expects or orders his fellow brothers to follow him - it would also appear he intends to come back if he lives so still not really breaking his vows as I see it.

Given that much has been made of the phrases of "meddling in the affairs of the Realm" or "taking sides in wars" where is this written in the Oath, this is an oral tradition & history. that's why fathering children & taking no wives is overlooked, it's not really expected that they be celibate imho.

Similarly the same with allowing for personal revenge it is quite a different concept than personal glory, he isn't seeking that, so technically still not breaking his oath. Benjen was allowed to leave the watch to visit WF when Robert came calling so it seems to be misinterpreted that the brothers need to be there 24/7 to honour their oath.

Just to add further fuel to the fire, it doesn't state the penalty for desertion is death either, that seems to be a "Stark" retribution.

[Leonardo]

Well I think most importantly is that Jon can't just step down as Lord Commander. You're LC for life, and on the wall for life. He was also guarding Stannis' heir and wife and being ordered to surrender them and also his Reek, who Jon doesn't have and couldn't give back if he wanted to. He is kinda screwed here in that regard, and is dealing with a threat to his watch and specifically himself. The NW was defending themselves after being threatened. There is a lot more at stake than Ramsay's pride and Jon knows it. He was very heated at the time, but with Stannis dead he knows that the wall is basically lost and the North will soon fall after it. If he can rally some of the North behind him he has a chance, and everyone hates the Boltons. I don't know what he planned to do when he took Winterfell, much like with Robb's general goals in GoT and if he ever planned on marching on King's Landing.

We also know a lot of the oath never existed in NW antiquity, and many rules were made because of things like Tristifer Mudd trying to march south, and of course mainly the Night's King, which is probably why the NW had to be celibate. The NW itself had settled the gift and likely had families, meaning they didn't rely on people taking the black as often because people were born into the watch. It sounds odd and crazy to do that to kids by just having them be born to take the black, but not when the long night just happened and now everyone grasps just how serious the threat of the others is. I mean they aren't allowed to hold lands, but the NW itself holds lands.

Lots of weird stuff going on with the oath to be sure, hence why the Black Gate underneath the Nightfort required a different oath in order to pass, it was older.

[Lady Woodland]

Well I think most importantly is that Jon can't just step down as Lord Commander. You're LC for life, and on the wall for life.

(snipped)

We also know a lot of the oath never existed in NW antiquity, and many rules were made because of things like Tristifer Mudd trying to march south, and of course mainly the Night's King, which is probably why the NW had to be celibate. The NW itself had settled the gift and likely had families, meaning they didn't rely on people taking the black as often because people were born into the watch. It sounds odd and crazy to do that to kids by just having them be born to take the black, but not when the long night just happened and now everyone grasps just how serious the threat of the others is. I mean they aren't allowed to hold lands, but the NW itself holds lands.

Lots of weird stuff going on with the oath to be sure, hence why the Black Gate underneath the Nightfort required a different oath in order to pass, it was older.

Agreed, but he's already been offered WF & refused it so it's not about personal glory he intends to come back ihmo.

Also yes absolutely right I totally agree about the Oath being changed to counter events like you have just described. Sort of like the Catholic Church really (I believe GRRM is a lapsed Catholic) In the beginning the clergy were allowed to have wives, however they were also wealthy men, so when they died, their wealth became part of the Vatican treasury & their heirs did not inherit.

[Leonardo]

Agreed, but he's already been offered WF & refused it so it's not about personal glory he intends to come back ihmo.

Also yes absolutely right I totally agree about the Oath being changed to counter events like you have just described. Sort of like the Catholic Church really (I believe GRRM is a lapsed Catholic) In the beginning the clergy were allowed to have wives, however they were also wealthy men, so when they died, their wealth became part of the Vatican treasury & their heirs did not inherit.

Have you read the Accursed Kings series? If you read it, you realize where GRRM got inspiration for the faith militant, and I also think where he took some of the NW stuff in regards to the Knights Templar. You weren't really allowed to own land in the knights templar, you just held it for the order as a whole. By the same token I'm pretty sure they weren't married; also very good notes from the clergy and catholic church, I didn't know that. I think GRRM certainly took cues from them even if he's not much of a religious person.

Welp now I'm off to wiki to see if I'm right hehe

Oh and I totally agree, his goal is not sitting winterfell, it's clearing out the bastard boltons who are crazy enough to attack the wall. 500 organized men could wreak serious havoc if they came at the wrong side of the wall, especially at night. He definitely won't sit the seat, even temporarily. He may take it for the watch though; having a fortress like that would be insanely useful for the watch mid-winter with the glass gardens (which he now has the cash to fix)

The North and the watch have always had a curious relationship I feel, and are bound somehow. Bran the Builder supposedly built both of them, so if that's true there definitely is a solid connection considering its all but fact he used magic to build the wall.

[Panos Targaryen]

The sleepers are the people of the South, or the North too sometimes, who don't take any threats beyond the wall seriously as they consider them too far away or myths. The Night's Watch has to warn them about these threats, to "wake them up" and help the realize they have to prepare. At least that's what I interpret the phrase to mean.

[Lady Woodland]

Have you read the Accursed Kings series? If you read it, you realize where GRRM got inspiration for the faith militant, and I also think where he took some of the NW stuff in regards to the Knights Templar. You weren't really allowed to own land in the knights templar, you just held it for the order as a whole. By the same token I'm pretty sure they weren't married; also very good notes from the clergy and catholic church, I didn't know that. I think GRRM certainly took cues from them even if he's not much of a religious person.

(snipped for space)

The North and the watch have always had a curious relationship I feel, and are bound somehow. Bran the Builder supposedly built both of them, so if that's true there definitely is a solid connection considering its all but fact he used magic to build the wall.

No I haven't read that series, the Faith militant did remind me of the Knight's Templar though, interestingly they were also a bank & money traders.

A friend has a theory that BtB was actually also the LH which I kinda like.

[messem]

Just what are the sleepers in the oath of the NW?

Giants. A lot of people assume that the NW is actually Lightbringer. So I claim the NW is actually the Horn of Joramun. I don't have any text text passages to confirm this claim.

[sj4iy]

I agree with this. I think one of the their original purposes when the order was formed is to not only defend the realm but to also warn the realm of any threat beyond the whole.

The bitter irony of this is that now no one seems to listen (except Stannis of course)

Stannis really isn't, either, though. He helped beat the Wildlings, but then left to go fight more of his war. Melisandre takes the threat more seriously, it seems.

[Leonardo]

No I haven't read that series, the Faith militant did remind me of the Knight's Templar though, interestingly they were also a bank & money traders.

A friend has a theory that BtB was actually also the LH which I kinda like.

Your research actually lends credence to that aspect that I hadn't thought of before in regards to the catholic church; I never knew they were allowed to marry at one point (clergy) because of the big stink history makes of Martin Luther and protestants.

And yes, the templar was definitely very important to some nations as moneylenders and some form of bank kind of; this is one of the big points of the first accursed kings book in fact, because the king of France lulls them in and takes all the money, without giving too much away in terms of the story.

What we both agree on is that the NW was very different at its inception and throughout the ages from what it is today.

The theory definitely fills in some gaps timewise for BtB. I mean why the hell was he the one to build the wall, because he had the skills, he knew the need, and how long after the long night did they build it? I assume it wasn't during the long night but maybe that is wrong. Not only that but other structures are attributed to him including Storm's End, though personally I don't know if I believe that.

[Ser Greg of House House]

They are the Watch. They are not supposed to fight the war on their own, but keep the menace in check, remember the importanfe of the threat and alert the realms if it comes to that. I mean, as weak as the Watch is now, if it weren't for them the Wall would be in ruins and the Others would have an easier job.

But there could be more to it, sure. It is indeed an interesting line.

[The Drunkard]

Sleepers just seems like a way to refer to the powerful people in the south, who, theoretically, have the NW there to alert them to any potential danger. Shame it doesn't seem to work anymore.

Stannis really isn't, either, though. He helped beat the Wildlings, but then left to go fight more of his war. Melisandre takes the threat more seriously, it seems.

He makes his intentions pretty clear, though. He intends to have each and every NW castle restored and garrisoned by the end of the year, he means to have nightfires burning before their gates for some unspecified magical purpose, he wants the people at the Wall armed with Obsidian, and he's stated the Others as the enemy he was born to fight, as well as his intent to return. He goes south because 1) he's still fighting for the throne, and 2) he has just over a thousand men at the Wall, no food source, no income, no political power, etc, which can hardly be expected to hold off Roose let alone the apocalypse.

[MartelloTorres]

Just what are the sleepers in the oath of the NW? Whatever they are it appears to be something integral to the order because they use it in their oath, but there appears to be no mention as to what the significance of this part the oath means. It could simply be that as a member of the NW they will always alert their brothers to any danger to the wall. On the other hand I have a feeling that it has to do with how the Horn of Joramum. I find it odd that the Horn was supposedly used to awaken the giants and then build the Wall, while simultaneously being able to destroy it as Mance claims. With the idea in mind that sorcery "is a sword without a hilt", I don't think there would a way to utilize the Horn of Winter by having a pick of a sound to awaken the slumbering and destroy the Wall separately. Instead I think that if the Horn were to be sounded near the Wall it would awaken whatever is potentially sustaining the 700 foot thing, and that would destroy it.

There is a way to make the Horn in the Night's Watch vow match up with the Horn of Joramun. The Wall will fall if the Horn is blown, but blowing it will summon something better and more useful than the Wall.

I suspect this may be dragons, built into or beneath the Wall, which are the sleepers. There is an explicit link in the books between magic and the presence of dragons, and there was an awful lot of magic that went into building the Wall. More than that, the magic has sustained itself over time to a large degree, even when there is no magic in the rest of the world. The coldness of the Wall might keep the dragons in a sort of primitive cryogenic stasis, and the size of it might act as a protective shell for them. The Wall itself is the shield that guards the realms of men - it is big and strong enough to be a good defensive measure against the Others, but something else would be needed to mount an attack against them.

I'm getting well into crackpot territory here, but dragons under the wall would also solve a pet theory of mine that being near the Wall extends the life of Targaryens, somehow. There's only a sample of two Targaryens at the Wall to support this, but they have both lived to an exceptionally old age. Aemon Targaryen was 102 when he died, and interestingly only passed away after he left the Wall. While Bloodraven is being kept alive by the weirwood throne now, he was still 58 by the time he got to the Wall; although the text isn't clear how long he stayed at the Wall, it was probably a few years at least. By the time he left the Wall, he was still hearty enough to make his way up to the Children's cave. Given how much emphasis is placed on the idea of "the bloof of the dragon," perhaps whatever spells keep the real dragons alive under the Wall also helps to keep the metaphorical ones going too.

(super-crackpot: The Wall brings secret-Targ Jon back to life, not Melisandre.)

[Minstral]

There is a way to make the Horn in the Night's Watch vow match up with the Horn of Joramun. The Wall will fall if the Horn is blown, but blowing it will summon something better and more useful than the Wall.

I suspect this may be dragons, built into or beneath the Wall, which are the sleepers. There is an explicit link in the books between magic and the presence of dragons, and there was an awful lot of magic that went into building the Wall. More than that, the magic has sustained itself over time to a large degree, even when there is no magic in the rest of the world. The coldness of the Wall might keep the dragons in a sort of primitive cryogenic stasis, and the size of it might act as a protective shell for them. The Wall itself is the shield that guards the realms of men - it is big and strong enough to be a good defensive measure against the Others, but something else would be needed to mount an attack against them.

I'm getting well into crackpot territory here, but dragons under the wall would also solve a pet theory of mine that being near the Wall extends the life of Targaryens, somehow. There's only a sample of two Targaryens at the Wall to support this, but they have both lived to an exceptionally old age. Aemon Targaryen was 102 when he died, and interestingly only passed away after he left the Wall. While Bloodraven is being kept alive by the weirwood throne now, he was still 58 by the time he got to the Wall; although the text isn't clear how long he stayed at the Wall, it was probably a few years at least. By the time he left the Wall, he was still hearty enough to make his way up to the Children's cave. Given how much emphasis is placed on the idea of "the bloof of the dragon," perhaps whatever spells keep the real dragons alive under the Wall also helps to keep the metaphorical ones going too.

(super-crackpot: The Wall brings secret-Targ Jon back to life, not Melisandre.)

I have toyed with a similar idea before on Ice Dragons (people wanted to make a connection between Jons dreams of Ice Dragons and GRRM's child story), though I would have doubts that dragons would be buried solely for the benefit of granting any Targ longevity, especially since the Targs are only one of many Valyrian families who were brought up in nothing but fire symbolism.

Moving on:

That the NW oath is passed down orally basically means that some parts of the oath are likely added and parts that remain become archaic and potentially misinterpreted. Considering the Watch has lost sight of its original purpose, then it is very likely that some parts of the oath that may or may not remain could have meant something totally different when the first brothers uttered the words. Keep in mind that when the first members swore their lives to the Wall it would probably have been done in the Old Tongue, meaning that it had to be translated which in turn makes the oath even more open to interpretation. I find the idea that the "wake the sleepers" idea being connected to the Watch warning the realm is too convenient of a dismissal of the idea, especially when it doesn't add up to me that the Horn can wake the race that helped build the Wall (admittedly in stories) and simultaneously have the power to destroy it unless it only has the power to awaken things that stir.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Jon Snow is the Horn of Joramun that or Dragon binder.

[jet199]

The sleepers are the people of the South, or the North too sometimes, who don't take any threats beyond the wall seriously as they consider them too far away or myths. The Night's Watch has to warn them about these threats, to "wake them up" and help the realize they have to prepare. At least that's what I interpret the phrase to mean.

This is how I read it. Most of the characters in the story are sleepers and only a few are aware of the threat.

[sj4iy]

He makes his intentions pretty clear, though. He intends to have each and every NW castle restored and garrisoned by the end of the year, he means to have nightfires burning before their gates for some unspecified magical purpose, he wants the people at the Wall armed with Obsidian, and he's stated the Others as the enemy he was born to fight, as well as his intent to return. He goes south because 1) he's still fighting for the throne, and 2) he has just over a thousand men at the Wall, no food source, no income, no political power, etc, which can hardly be expected to hold off Roose let alone the apocalypse.

But to me, it seems more that he's doing it because it's a strategic way to win the kingdom, and not so much that he truly believes in the severity of the threat.

[Lady Winter Rose]

I think it means WWs come at night and that NW is supposed to wake everyone from sleep when they arrive.