Is there still a king in the north?

[Petyr Patter]

Seriously, what are you talking about? What does Hoster have to do with anything? Mors Crowfood Umber told Stannis that he would fight wiht him on the condition that his forces would not fight against Hother Umber's forces under no circumstances. This is not how vassalage works. Vassals don't get to chose when and who to fight.

Tell that to the Freys.

OK, supposedly a vassal's loyalty to their liege lord is suppose to be absolute, but in reality vassals can always turn around and take their armies home. Hence, there always exists some amount of motivation. Especially in a case where loyalty is in conflict. The Umbers are in theory ruled by the Iron Throne, and thus owe their allegiance to the institution's Warden of the North, Roose. However, Stannis says the current administration is illegal and offers himself as an alternative. Before chosing one side or another, pretty much every vassal/lord will look to see which one best represents their interests.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Treason.

Robb threatened to have Greatjon hanged and had Greyt Wind bite off two of his fingers when he proposed to withdraw his forces.

Stannis, didnt punish Velaryon.

All he did was bitching with Davos about how he needs to make a move because Velaryon is biting his ass, threatening to withdraw his levys.

[The Sleeper]

Tell that to the Freys.

OK, supposedly a vassal's loyalty to their liege lord is suppose to be absolute, but in reality vassals can always turn around and take their armies home. Hence, there always exists some amount of motivation. Especially in a case where loyalty is in conflict. The Umbers are in theory ruled by the Iron Throne, and thus owe their allegiance to the institution's Warden of the North, Roose. However, Stannis says the current administration is illegal and offers himself as an alternative. Before chosing one side or another, pretty much every vassal/lord will look to see which one best represents their interests.

Even the Freys did not refuse any of Robb's orders, prior to him breaking the marriage pact. The deal was they got squires, fosterlings and two marraiges. Not the right to chose their battles. Noone placed the condition not to fight against Emmon Frey who was fighting for the Lannisters.

[The Sleeper]

Stannis, didnt punish Velaryon.

All he did was bitching with Davos about how he needs to make a move because Velaryon is biting his ass, threatening to withdraw his levys.

And? All this proves that Stannis' vassals allegiance was shaky to begin with, but we knew that from the strart.

Was there any point in the text where Mors Umber swore allegiance to Stannis?

[Señor de la Tormenta]

And? All this proves that Stannis' vassals allegiance was shaky to begin with, but we knew that from the strart.

Was there any point in the text where Mors Umber swore allegiance to Stannis?

Has Mors Umber bent the knee? "Your Grace should have him swear an oath before his heart tree."

Godry the Giantslayer guffawed. "I had forgotten that you northmen worship trees."

"What sort of god lets himself be pissed upon by dogs?" asked Farring's crony Clayton Suggs.

Jon chose to ignore them. "Your Grace, might I know if the Umbers have declared for you?"

"Half of them, and only if I meet this Crowfood's price," said Stannis, in an irritated tone. "He wants Mance Rayder's skull for a drinking cup, and he wants a pardon for his brother, who has ridden south to join Bolton. Whoresbane, he's called."

By the way, how would he demand his brother to be pardoned, if Stannis is no King?

[Disputatious]

Didn't the Manderly girl say something about it? Either way if they use Stannis to get their precious Starks back and then turn on him before the Ice Demons come, they'll have less honor then back alley whores.

They do not have to accept him as their King in order to ally with him first against the Boltons---and thus indirectly strike at the current regime in King's Landing---and then against the ancient enemy, which Stannis identifies as the true enemy

[The Sleeper]

Has Mors Umber bent the knee? "Your Grace should have him swear an oath before his heart tree."

Godry the Giantslayer guffawed. "I had forgotten that you northmen worship trees."

"What sort of god lets himself be pissed upon by dogs?" asked Farring's crony Clayton Suggs.

Jon chose to ignore them. "Your Grace, might I know if the Umbers have declared for you?"

"Half of them, and only if I meet this Crowfood's price," said Stannis, in an irritated tone. "He wants Mance Rayder's skull for a drinking cup, and he wants a pardon for his brother, who has ridden south to join Bolton. Whoresbane, he's called."

By the way, how would he demand his brother to be pardoned, if Stannis is no King?

He is stlll placing conditions. And still have you seen this supposed pledging of allegiance taking place?

[Señor de la Tormenta]

He is stlll placing conditions. And still have you seen this supposed pledging of allegiance taking place?

Yes. He is with an army at WF as agreed, meaning the deal was reached.

When he got Arya Stark and Theon Greyjoy he sent them right away to him, as a loyal bannerman would had done.

[The Sleeper]

Yes. He is with an army at WF as agreed, meaning the deal was reached.

When he got Arya Stark and Theon Greyjoy he sent them right away to him, as a loyal bannerman would had done.

So, he went to Stannis, bent the knee and pledged allegiance to him? The deal could mean a different thing to Mors than to Stannis.

[HosteenOsteen]

There is a King in the North. And his name is Stannis.

Just this

[Wmarshal]

The king by law is Stannis

By the rebel state is Bran

[Ulthosian Stark]

The king by law is Stannis

By the rebel state is Bran

In Robbs Will it names Jon as his successor, so it would be Jon not bran.

[Wmarshal]

Bran is the true king, Jon is a NW, no northerner will ever bow to him once word Bran lives.

[Game Of Thrones]

There still is a King in the North: Stannis Baratheon. He's a King, he's in the North, what more do you want.

[Mikkel]

There still is a King in the North: Stannis Baratheon. He's a King, he's in the North, what more do you want.

Which becomes true because the Northmen go with "in" rather than "of" the north in the title. Stannis is (in his view) King of all seven kingdoms, the North included, but he's not specifically King "in" (or of) the North.

The real question is, IMO, is there currently a King in active opposition to the Iron Throne, whose goal is an independent North? And the answer to that is no, neither Bran nor Rickon nor Jon is working towards that goal at present. So technicalities aside, I would say there is at present (end of ADWD) no King in the North.

[Game Of Thrones]

Technically, all the Kings in the North have been Baratheons-Robert and Stannis.

Robb was crowned in the Riverlands. He might have been a King of the North for half a book, but he was never a King in the North.

[TheonGreyjoy]

Technically, all the Kings in the North have been Baratheons-Robert and Stannis.

Robb was crowned in the Riverlands. He might have been a King of the North for half a book, but he was never a King in the North.

Wasn't Robb crowned at Moat Caitlin? Its the border of the north technically.

[The Marquis de Leech]

In Robbs Will it names Jon as his successor, so it would be Jon not bran.

Jon belongs to the Night's Watch. As such, he is ineligible for any throne.

[Lord Damian]

technically, Westeros is made of 7 Kingdoms and one Principality (Dorne). However, The Iron Throne does not claim the Riverlands as a kingdom and does claim Dorne to be one although, the Dornish have been ruled by Princes. Anyways, The North never stopped being a Kingdom when Torhen Stark bent the knee and surrendered his crown. Same for the other kingdoms. The King on the Iron Throne has that title/titles and acknowledged so until Robb as proclaimed by the Northern lords and River lords. The iron born claim to be Kings of the North too, rediculous as it is. Bran is the true heir but posession is 9 tenths of the law in most cases so who ever takes it from Roose or more importantily, ridding of him and the Freys would make the victor a King or Kingmaker.

[Ghosts Lunch]

Short answer, yes and no

But that applies to lots of questions, is Stannis the King of a united Westeros? Yes and No, yes if you are at the Wall, no if you are in KL where he is a rebel Lord

Is Roose Bolton Warden in the North, yes and no, yes if u are in KL and the hall of Winterfell with him, no if you are in Stannis's army or the Umber right outside the gates because you consider Tommens declarations invalid if u are Stannis and the Southron aristocracy have no authority if you are a Stark loyalist hiding in the neck, Robb's will does instead...

Is the Iron Islands an independent kingdom led by King Balon and then King Euron? Yes and no. The thing that somewhat warps my mind is is Asha a Princess, no if you are Stannis and yes if you are ransomed Ironborn like artist infer, even though in Theon chapter they are right next to each other in a northern tower

There certainly seems to be a commitment still to the KiTN, as we saw through Lyanna Mormonts response to Stannis

At the very least a Kingdom/Country never really is solidified as existing until a treaty is signed with the party they are breaking away from, eg did the confederate States ever exist? On the other side did the U.S become independent at decleration in 1776 or when Britain agreed to stop fighting the rebellion/revolution in 1780's? Same can be said of Mexico in relation to Spain etc

In the case of asoif some would say there was never a kingdom in the first place so the question is as moot as 'did Balon Greyjoy preside over an independent Kingdom' or was he a recalcitrant Lord crushed by Robert? eg KL set and the Westerlings perhaps who made Jeyne get rid of her crown, though Jeyne would say otherwise...

It touches on a question in International Relations of what sovereignty is, basically control over territory (in particular) having sovereignty recognised by others etc and this isn't always legalistically clear cut. Current example being what country is Crimea a part of...

ATM though I am inclined to say there is not, though there very well may soon be once again, eg if Manderly's get their hands on Rickon and a sizeable body of Northern lords declare fealty to him AS KiTN and they control at least some territory with one of them being coronated then yes.

The key is an heir has to be coronated which hasn't happened. A related question is whether Bran and Rickon are still treated as a princes. They certainly were in Winterfell but Sansa and Arya weren't treated as princesses when in the south

I found it very curious that that Jojen and Meera kept referring to Bran as their prince after Winterfell was sacked etc.

I find the books interesting, where basically all claimants are kings where they control territory, eg king of iron islands and the north, king of narrow sea, king in the north etc

Given the whole joint is a mess there won't be a definitive answer until the end of the books.

There is the possibility of having Vassal Kings of a greater Empire, think Roman Empire with Vassal Kings like Herod in Judea and the Ptolemaic Kings in Egypt like various King Ptolemies and most famously Queen Celopatra - until they were made full provinces. Sot here is technically a middle way where Westeros can become united but there are several kingdoms. Then there is governance structure, eg a centralised government in KL or a looser confederate style grouping of Kingdoms. This actually existed to a degree already with the a Warden system where the liege Lords had a lot of authority to deal with local issues as they saw fit