Daario - the opposite of fake

[Mikkel]

On the subject of Dany and Daario, I'm one of those who are super glad she finally gets to choose a sexual partner, one SHE desires. Yes it's politically unsound and you might hate reading about it but this is part of her growth as a person. And I think she does love him as Barristan says. And I think Daario grew to care for her in his own golden toothed, blue haired, naked woman weapon way. He displays signs of jealousy where Hizzy is concerned. You have to care to be jealous.

And hey, Dany is enjoying sex. I really don't see the issue with that.

Nobody in their right mind can argue with that, but you don't have to be against Dany choosing her sexual partner to dislike the man, or the character, or to just dislike reading about teenage romance in general :P.

You're right that you have to care to be jealous, but the caring doesn't necessarily have to be about the person.

[HexMachina]

On the subject of Dany and Daario, I'm one of those who are super glad she finally gets to choose a sexual partner, one SHE desires. Yes it's politically unsound and you might hate reading about it but this is part of her growth as a person. And I think she does love him as Barristan says. And I think Daario grew to care for her in his own golden toothed, blue haired, naked woman weapon way. He displays signs of jealousy where Hizzy is concerned. You have to care to be jealous.

And hey, Dany is enjoying sex. I really don't see the issue with that.

I'm glad I'm not alone in my opinion.

Its not even that big of a political blunder either, since she gave him up when she got.married. The biggest problem politically is that it gives ammunition for her foes to spread vicious rumours about her and her "insatiable sexual appetite."

[Kyoshi]

Nobody in their right mind can argue with that, but you don't have to be against Dany choosing her sexual partner to dislike the man, or the character, or to just dislike reading about teenage romance in general :P.You're right that you have to care to be jealous, but the caring doesn't necessarily have to be about the person.

I think it is about the person. If Dany was just another conquest Daario wouldn't give 2 groats about whom she bedded after him. He already had the bragging rights so to speak. And everyone already knows about them. They weren't being clandestine in any way.

Here's how I look at it: the fact that he's displaying jealousy means there's some level of possessiveness that's now sneaked into the relationship. Possessiveness, primitive as it may be, is the most basic form of attachment. She is his and he is hers. No other penises allowed. There's emotion in that, positive emotion. It's not about bedding the Dragon Queen anymore. You see it when she losses herself, he tries to remind her who she is not because he wants to go back to bedding the Dragon Queen but because he cares for her as a person. Otherwise he would allow her to descend into that identity without trying to pull her back because guess what, if he didn't care about her he would try to make her as insecure as possible so that she would be as dependent on him as possible. That's how scumbags generally work when sleeping with the hot girl they're sleeping with for the sake of sleeping with them.

What I'm saying is that it's not the case with Daario. He wants her to be her own woman, confident and awesome. Maybe he's doing it so he can sit with his captains and say "my girl can kick your girl's ass...I revise that, my girl can kick YOUR ass!" But that's a plus for him. Men, especially warrior men, hardly ever want a strong woman attached to them since that dulls down their own awesomeness. Daario is good for her in certain regards.

[Mikkel]

What I'm saying is that it's not the case with Daario. He wants her to be her own woman, confident and awesome. Maybe he's doing it so he can sit with his captains and say "my girl can kick your girl's ass...I revise that, my girl can kick YOUR ass!" But that's a plus for him. Men, especially warrior men, hardly ever want a strong woman attached to them since that dulls down their own awesomeness. Daario is good for her in certain regards.

Mm, I hope you're right, it would certainly give Daario a lot of brownie points in my book (and Dany will need someone to reign her in soon, methinks).

The biggest problem politically is that it gives ammunition for her foes to spread vicious rumours about her and her "insatiable sexual appetite."

Which, let's face it, is an accusation almost any woman in power will face in a patriarchal world. Unless they were to remain absolutely chaste, but even that could be used against them.

But giving her detractors something that has a (small) kernel of truth in it to use against her is not smart, even if it's understandable.

[HexMachina]

Mm, I hope you're right, it would certainly give Daario a lot of brownie points in my book (and Dany will need someone to reign her in soon, methinks).

Which, let's face it, is an accusation almost any woman in power will face in a patriarchal world. Unless they were to remain absolutely chaste, but even that could be used against them.

But giving her detractors something that has a (small) kernel of truth in it to use against her is not smart, even if it's understandable.

Yeah, I wasn't saying it was something unique to Dany (rumours about sexual appetite). The rumours actually exist prior to Dany first sleeping with Daario, as early as Quentyn in Volantis. IMO, may as well do what the hell she likes if people are already spreading lies about her. Yes it wasn't all that smart, but it was hardly the blunder of the century.

[Kyoshi]

I'm glad I'm not alone in my opinion.

Its not even that big of a political blunder either, since she gave him up when she got.married. The biggest problem politically is that it gives ammunition for her foes to spread vicious rumours about her and her "insatiable sexual appetite."

The insatiable sexual appetite argument gets really annoying to be honest. Tyrion has it with many whores *shudders at the word*. Jon has it with Ygritte. Arianne is often applauded for her seductive nature, lots of people hoping to see her nipples in the show. Everyone is allowed to have near obsessive sexual relationships with their partner in this series, just not Dany.

I can't remember once, not a single time, reading about people being disgusted and impatient with the way Tyrion was always going on about Shae. Or how Jon liked having sex with Ygritte. It's only the teenage girl that gets crucified. Jon is a teenage boy. But nooooo, we just don't want to read about the stupid teenage girl and her sexual escapades.

[LordStoneheart]

On the subject of Dany and Daario, I'm one of those who are super glad she finally gets to choose a sexual partner, one SHE desires. Yes it's politically unsound and you might hate reading about it but this is part of her growth as a person. And I think she does love him as Barristan says. And I think Daario grew to care for her in his own golden toothed, blue haired, naked woman weapon way. He displays signs of jealousy where Hizzy is concerned. You have to care to be jealous.

And hey, Dany is enjoying sex. I really don't see the issue with that.

:agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree:

[I'm the Party Pooper]

I'm glad I'm not alone in my opinion.

Its not even that big of a political blunder either, since she gave him up when she got.married. The biggest problem politically is that it gives ammunition for her foes to spread vicious rumours about her and her "insatiable sexual appetite."

It's obviously an empty rouse, whores and wives are welcome to have 'insatiable sexual appetite' more often than not. And if she was chaste, they would have spread vicious rumours about her and her ''unrighteous behaviour caused by sexual chaste frustration'' and boast about how she would need a ''good fuck''. That's rumours students end up with on teachers they dislike, at times.

edit: 'whores and wives' in the same sentence sounds really bad, I apologise. I do not mean to imply there's any association among the two categories.

[Kyoshi]

It's obviously an empty rouse, whores and wives are welcome to have 'insatiable sexual appetite' more often than not. And if she was chaste, they would have spread vicious rumours about her and her ''unrighteous behaviour caused by sexual chaste frustration'' and boast about how she would need a ''good fuck''. That's rumours students end up with on teachers they dislike, at times.

edit: 'whores and wives' in the same sentence sounds really bad, I apologise. I do not mean to imply there's any association among the two categories.

I can see this happening actually. Or they'd say in the most offensive way that she's a lesbian. Whichever way her sexual appetite goes, this is a fight she cannot win. Which really speaks volumes about the double standards of both book characters and readers. One of those moments you want people to come out and admit that Dany's gender does in fact count against her popularity or the approval of her actions. Sorry if I'm straying off topic.

[HexMachina]

It's obviously an empty rouse, whores and wives are welcome to have 'insatiable sexual appetite' more often than not. And if she was chaste, they would have spread vicious rumours about her and her ''unrighteous behaviour caused by sexual chaste frustration'' and boast about how she would need a ''good fuck''. That's rumours students end up with on teachers they dislike, at times.

edit: 'whores and wives' in the same sentence sounds really bad, I apologise. I do not mean to imply there's any association among the two categories.

They do spread the rumours, even before she sleeps with Daario. Quentyn hears them in Volantis, at which point Dany is still resisting him.

Kyoshi; one poster in particular jumps to mind when thinking about what you said. I seem to recall her being called "mad bitch" "useless little girl" "does nothing but dream about blue hair and gold tooth" by said poster...

[LordStoneheart]

Kyoshi; one poster in particular jumps to mind when thinking about what you said. I seem to recall her being called "mad bitch" "useless little girl" "does nothing but dream about blue hair and gold tooth" by said poster...

If we're on the same page here, I'm glad others remember these types of things. :D

[Kyoshi]

^^I think I know that particular poster. *wink*

[I'm the Party Pooper]

I can see this happening actually. Or they'd say in the most offensive way that she's a lesbian. Whichever way her sexual appetite goes, this is a fight she cannot win. Which really speaks volumes about the double standards of both book characters and readers. One of those moments you want people to come out and admit that Dany's gender does in fact count against her popularity or the approval of her actions. Sorry if I'm straying off topic.

Well, in a certain sense it does to me.

The tendency of falling to 'infatuations', the care for her 'children' and such are - at least in my cultural background - rooted into a feminine best qualities. A typical 'masculine' portrait is ruthless, would 'use' sexual partners but not get attached to them, would 'mercilessly' conquer the city, sack it and go on - to Westeros.

Now the double standard. If a male character takes same choices as Dany, then it shows that he has grown a sensibility quality that improves him over the plain 'masculine' portrait. If a female character wears pants - like Asha, who is loved by many - it shows that she has grown a ruthlessly/selfishness that 'improves' over the plain undeveloped typical 'feminine' portrait. In a society like ours, with men growing more feminine and women growing more masculine generation after generation, these are easy characters to love.

Daenerys instead is rooted firmly in the 'feminine' portrait. Even if she is a ruler, a Queen, she is clearly displaying female qualities - along as a female mindset and way to make choices. Don't mistake me, in their own view - freeing slaves, sewing justice, trying to be 'good ruler' etc - they might well be good. Although I, as a man - personally -, don't like it for this exact reason. She is not behaving as a (most) man would in her place, her choices to me sound almost always 'unreasonable', and therefore it's easy to disagree with her and take distance. Her PoV is filled up with concerns and evaluations that - to me - most always mean nothing. That's probably due to the fact I've got a male mindset/values and she has not, but this doesn't mean it's a conscious 'women hatred' or 'misogynist thought'. (or unconscious)

Human beings are more easy to sympathise with people with similar mindset and view, that's all of it. There exist gender differences - or there exists the belief of gender differences - that limit the level of understanding among the two categories. Even in real world society, for accomplishing certain tasks (e.g. going out shopping / playing war simulation) people tend to naturally distribute into gender heterogeneous groups - with exceptions, of course. That's because certain type of mindset/character tend to be more homogeneously distributed within same gender.

[Kyoshi]

Well, in a certain sense it does to me.

The tendency of falling to 'infatuations', the care for her 'children' and such are - at least in my cultural background - rooted into a feminine best qualities. A typical 'masculine' portrait is ruthless, would 'use' sexual partners but not get attached to them, would 'mercilessly' conquer the city, sack it and go on - to Westeros.

Now the double standard. If a male character takes same choices as Dany, then it shows that he has grown a sensibility quality that improves him over the plain 'masculine' portrait. If a female character wears pants - like Asha, who is loved by many - it shows that she has grown a ruthlessly/selfishness that 'improves' over the plain undeveloped typical 'feminine' portrait. In a society like ours, with men growing more feminine and women growing more masculine generation after generation, these are easy characters to love.

Daenerys instead is rooted firmly in the 'feminine' portrait. Even if she is a ruler, a Queen, she is clearly displaying female qualities - along as a female mindset and way to make choices. Don't mistake me, in their own view - freeing slaves, sewing justice, trying to be 'good ruler' etc - they might well be good. Although I, as a man - personally -, don't like it for this exact reason. She is not behaving as a (most) man would in her place, her choices to me sound almost always 'unreasonable', and therefore it's easy to disagree with her and take distance. Her PoV is filled up with concerns and evaluations that - to me - most always mean nothing. That's probably due to the fact I've got a male mindset/values and she has not, but this doesn't mean it's a conscious 'women hatred' or 'misogynist thought'. (or unconscious)

Human beings are more easy to sympathise with people with similar mindset and view, that's all of it. There exist gender differences - or there exists the belief of gender differences - that limit the level of understanding among the two categories. Even in real world society, for accomplishing certain tasks (e.g. going out shopping / playing war simulation) people tend to naturally distribute into gender heterogeneous groups - with exceptions, of course. That's because certain type of mindset/character tend to be more homogeneously distributed within same gender.

I get your point. However, I now find myself confused since in acquiring Daenerys as a sexual partner, Daario has, in some way, conformed to one of the masculine attributes in both ours and the time period of ASOIAF. getting the hot girl should make his character more likable to males in general. Assuming of course that we're cutting everything down to familiar gender roles and identities, primitive as it is. However, most people against Daario on this forum tend to be male. I realise I'm being presumptuous but that's the sort of world I've experienced thus far. It would make more sense for people to cheer Daario, not despise him.

I also find it ridicilous that one of the more frequently used arguments against him is something as superficial as a golden tooth (however unattractive it may be).

EDIT: I also think that maybe people didn't have such a big problem with Daario immediately after Dance was published. I think that maybe one particularly influential poster expressed his/her opinion eloquently and passionately such that it became fashionable to hate him. Pretty soon it became difficult to view Daario as anything but a golden tooth and a blue, pronged beard.

[Kyoshi]

^^ but don't get me wrong, unless Daario turns out to be Benjen in disguise and on a mission to save the world, I'm not putting him on my favourite list anytime soon. I also just googled him and apparently GRRM has said that he's certainly more than he appears to be (I super highly doubt he's Benjen though).

[LordStoneheart]

dat gold toof...

[I'm the Party Pooper]

I get your point. However, I now find myself confused since in acquiring Daenerys as a sexual partner, Daario has, in some way, conformed to one of the masculine attributes in both ours and the time period of ASOIAF. getting the hot girl should make his character more likable to males in general. Assuming of course that we're cutting everything down to familiar gender roles and identities, primitive as it is. However, most people against Daario on this forum tend to be male. I realise I'm being presumptuous but that's the sort of world I've experienced thus far. It would make more sense for people to cheer Daario, not despise him.

I also find it ridicilous that one of the more frequently used arguments against him is something as superficial as a golden tooth (however unattractive it may be).

EDIT: I also think that maybe people didn't have such a big problem with Daario immediately after Dance was published. I think that maybe one particularly influential poster expressed his/her opinion eloquently and passionately such that it became fashionable to hate him. Pretty soon it became difficult to view Daario as anything but a golden tooth and a blue, pronged beard.

I vouch for myself only, so don't generalize on my opinions. ;-)

Daario is a full 'masculine' rooted character, good for him that he is a great warrior and 'Don Giovanni'. But I - probably majority of male readers as well - am not like that. Modern generations shifted toward the middle of the two extremes. For me, a 'nerd', it's easier to sympathize with males with 'extraordinary' sensibility - like Samwell Tarly or Jon Snow - than pure masculine ones. Even when they are - in respect to 'masculine' portray - probably classifiable as being a 'little' pussy.

Still, these people line of thought is typical 'male' one: efficiency/practical/optimization decisions are directed toward values I hold as well. Holding the wall against 'others' while smuggling human beings inside the kingdom, is something I understand and share. Breaking chains in Astapor, is a smart choice I can agree with because it's done to reach the initial goal. Going on 'breaking' chains and planting trees while postponing initial goal, isn't. As bad as it sounds it, I would have sacked it - or asked for provisions/wealth as tribute - and marched away. Bad thing children died, but in a world like that this happens any-time. Also, I would never expect to make friends or rule a city in such conditions, nor take responsibility for people following me. Falling in 'love' with a woman but then hold back to your 'vow' and 'duty' and try to not think about it any-more (denial!) is something I understand. Falling in 'love' with a man and 'hoping' to be rescued from a marriage whe don't like in extremis, isn't.

In my previous post, I tried to pose the accent on the 'mindset/values' with which choices are taken. They must bee keen with ours, to be agreeable and understandable. Since they are both at two extremes, I don't enjoy them too much.

[Wmarshal]

I don't understand the argument of Daario as a dishonourable imbecile. That sounds like something Westerosi knights would say "these sellswords only fight for gold. "

Let's be realistic, knight or sellsword, gold or "honour", they're all fighting to kill. In the end there is no true honour and they are all just killers. Sandor saw the truth and tried to tell us yet somehow here we are still debating the honour in killing.

One, I said he was success less tall talker, HATM is he one who said imbecile. And has no honor, I say that of any knight that kills his leaders.

Daario as I said before, sponges of Dany, using her war effort and policies to feel his pocket.

[Wmarshal]

Let's be real, for many readers the thing is that they want see Daenerys get some Mom/Dad/Disney approved clean and brave Prince

Meanwhile she get mounted dothraki rider style by a mongol Conan with eyeliner (but.. but.. she was forced! Yes, at begin), then he die and she start banging a blue haired italian pimp mercenary,,, not because she need him, but because she want him

Peoples get mad :D

I'm sure at some point Daario will be killed or anyway push out of Daenerys life in a definitive way, but until that point thank you GRRM :D

I can dislike a character for what he is.

[Wmarshal]

That's my point. Sandor didn't see the point in pretending his actions were anything to be revered. He was a killer, he didn't want the pretentious title of a knight attached to that. Knights are not different from sellswords, they just have a more dedicated PR department i.e. singers, poets and the high born little girls who belive them.

Far from true. Knights fight for a cause they believe in, there are some of the low of the low, but others of high honor. Same as sellswords. Daario and his men are the low of the low, that is why he was in SB in the first place.