The Wisdom of Catelyn Tully

[Fat Mac]

Meh. All I'll say is that she's often smarter than those around her. Obviously Littlefinger and Varys are the exceptions, but I did feel frustrated on her behalf when she's trying to advise Robb and his bannermen.

Robb's bannermen (Roose Bolton aside) were relatively thickheaded and/or stubborn. The Greatjon and Rickard Karstark are more out and out moronic.

I view Cat the same way I view Ellaria Sand. Both of them are women who should be listened to more, surrounded by scheming and plotting men who undervalue their intelligence, maybe because they actually talk sense.

[Batbob45]

Cat was like a antiCersei(Cat was a good parent)

[LordStoneheart]

Robb's bannermen (Roose Bolton aside) were relatively thickheaded and/or stubborn. The Greatjon and Rickard Karstark are more out and out moronic.

I view Cat the same way I view Ellaria Sand. Both of them are women who should be listened to more, surrounded by scheming and plotting men who undervalue their intelligence, maybe because they actually talk sense.

I second this motion.

[Lord Damian]

The title to this post is an oxymoron.

[Salinda]

Robb's bannermen (Roose Bolton aside) were relatively thickheaded and/or stubborn. The Greatjon and Rickard Karstark are more out and out moronic.

I view Cat the same way I view Ellaria Sand. Both of them are women who should be listened to more, surrounded by scheming and plotting men who undervalue their intelligence, maybe because they actually talk sense.

Ellaria is definitely another wise woman

Had she only talked some sense into Oberyn

[HexMachina]

Ellaria is definitely another wise woman

Had she only talked some sense into Oberyn

Had Doran and the Sand Snakes only listened to her *sigh*

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The title to this post is an oxymoron.

How can people take this thread seriously when its first point is that

I. Catelyn recognizes the real threat before any other character. *

If Cat is smart for "recognizes the real threat" what is Craster who not only knew but he was able to form a liaison with them in order to protect himself and his sisterswivesdaughters? An effing genius?

Cat is smart yes but wise? No.

*Which btw is wrong since there is at least one character who knows it way before Cat.

[The Frosted King]

I love Catelyn. All her chapters were some of my favorites. Just the love for her family permeating them did my heart glad.

She made one bad decision imo. The release of Jaime, but i held no bitterness as she just lost her youngest children, and wanted to get her girls back.

Kinda like Robb.

His one inexplicable decision was Jeyne, but it was grief that drove him to it.

The Theon thing is one of those Balon was too stupid to be predicted things that plot pushed, rather than sense.

Catelyn just had the same overall problem as Robb. The narrative demanded the Starks fall, and hard, both in the political arena and in the emotional one.

All the swords/axes and lances in Westeros can't defend against that.

Just ask Renly.

[coil]

Agree with Jon's Queen Consort.

Catelyn's definitely not stupid and definitely is one of the very few characters who can actually considered a voice of reason in the whole asoiaf... but jumping from this to say that she's one of the most intelligent characters of the series is too much.

Personally I think that like in Cersei's case, Catelyn's decisions are on top when her emotions aren't involved (that doesn't mean the two are that similar, of course).

Catelyn's actions are incredibly contraddictory when her closest relatives are involved, hence the amount of consequential fuckups.

As example, Jaime's liberation is a fuckup of colossal dimensions: the reader can relate to it because of the emotional component and how POVs are structured around the events, but things like that shouldn't be conveniently ignored when discussing about the wisdom of someone, especially since other people are harshly criticized by characters themselves, exactly for losing their composure for very similar reasons (Rickard Karstark, for tell you one).

Catelyn has an awful lot of good intentions and the will to make them happen, but when things get too personal she's the first one not to follow what she preaches.

[HexMachina]

Agree with Jon's Queen Consort.

Catelyn's definitely not stupid and definitely is one of the very few characters who can actually considered a voice of reason in the whole asoiaf... but jumping from this to say that she's one of the most intelligent characters of the series is too much.

Personally I think that like in Cersei's case, Catelyn's decisions are on top when her emotions aren't involved (that doesn't mean the two are that similar, of course).

Catelyn's actions are incredibly contraddictory when her closest relatives are involved, hence the amount of consequential fuckups.

As example, Jaime's liberation is a fuckup of colossal dimensions: the reader can relate to it because of the emotional component and how POVs are structured around the events, but things like that shouldn't be conveniently ignored when discussing about the wisdom of someone, especially since other people are harshly criticized by characters themselves, exactly for losing their composure for very similar reasons (Rickard Karstark, for tell you one).

Catelyn has an awful lot of good intentions and the will to make them happen, but when things get too personal she's the first one not to follow what she preaches.

I'm curious then, who would you say is the most intelligent female in the series?

[Mdoggy]

Hopefully Sansa IS Cat 2.0.....

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Ellaria is definitely another wise woman

Indeed.

[coil]

I'm curious then, who would you say is the most intelligent female in the series?

I'm not really into rankings because they are oversimplifications, also if there was a ranking for intellect there shouldn't be separations between sexes because that's pointless. Notice how I mention Catelyn's wisdom compared to the rest of the whole cast and not only females.

I'll try to answer for the sake of discussion, but notice how comparisons don't really stand up!

Basically every other female character's arc is way different from Catelyn's, and very few that have something to do with power and decisions.

Asha looks quite smart and I don't see her making particular mistakes of sort, but currently her arc doesn't strike me as particularly important, nor there are that many decisions to be taken. She's more a reaver than a leader, despite her tentative at the Kingsmoot, which is reasonable despite being a failure btw.

Brienne's position is completely different from Cat's one, she doesn't strike me as a complete tool but neither as a sort of genius.

Cersei does actually realise that Varys is dangerous, and unlike any other character in the series she does actually step the fuck away from him (unlike Ned, Tyrion, Tywin etc., not bad for someone who is regarded as really stupid - but I believe we both know that in Cersei's case the issue is not stupidity but rather emotivity).

To oversimplify by a lot, Sansa's arc is about growing a brain so before a comparison we have to choose between AGoT's Sansa or AFfC's Sansa since they are severely different. I'd say we wait for more chapters.

So far Melisandre managed to do basically whatever she wanted despite hanging around with kings and such, if not intelligent at least she's pretty much smart according to her results.

Arya proves to be a really good judge of characters and whenever she makes mistakes they can be related more to her really young age rather than anything else, an excuse no other character but Sansa has.

Missandei proves to be awfully smart... yet she's no main character and maybe something else lurks around underneath, if sometheories about her being a FM are true.

To keep it simple: relating Catelyn to other females is tricky because we either deal with arcs with nothing to do about excercising smartness (or at least wisdom/decisions aren't the focus and come too seldom for a comparison). If a comparison must be made, we have

-Catelyn/Cersei or Selyse, which is like shooting fishes in a barrel

-Catelyn/Sansa

-Catelyn/Arya/Brienne/Asha/Melisandre, thematically and plot wise very different

The most interesting one should be Arianne, who already fucked up big once so both should be quite equal, but Arianne's arc is still developing.

Hope my answer left you with something useful, but I'm the first to admit that this kind of comparisons does look quite meh... my main point it's still that Catelyn's not smart as the OP makes her to be.

[LordStoneheart]

I'm still not seeing any good arguments against Cat recognizing the possibility of danger beyond the Wall. Eddards says Others don't exist, no one has seen them. She points out a similar thing about direwolves, the suggestion being they could definitely be real. This isn't quite "raise the banners, go fight the white walkers!" but its more than any other northern commander did. Plus, OP said Catelyn recognizes the real threat before anyone, not makes baby swapping deal with the real threat.

[coil]

I'm still not seeing any good arguments against Cat recognizing the possibility of danger beyond the Wall. Eddards says Others don't exist, no one has seen them. She points out a similar thing about direwolves, the suggestion being they could definitely be real. This isn't quite "raise the banners, go fight the white walkers!" but its more than any other northern commander did. Plus, OP said Catelyn recognizes the real threat before anyone, not makes baby swapping deal with the real threat.

The thing is that not only Catelyn doesn't raise an army... she actually urged Ned to go away south!

She also wanted Summer dead when Bran was still in a coma ^^

Old Nan realises the Others are dangerous too, and unlike Catelyn she preaches the dangers of living during winter: does she make her more intelligent?

Whoever speaks of Others without having real evidences like some NW's members, is proven right only in hindsight.

That's anything but an indicator of wisdom, it's pure feeling overcoming logic.

If the Others weren't there, everyone would make fun of him and called him a fool who believes in supernatural. Nimble Dick Crabb speaks about monsters and whispering heads, and Brienne (and the reader) immediately assume his are jokes or old legends without any real danger behind it.

For the common Westerosi smallfolk, the Others shouldn't be nothing less or more than that.

[LordStoneheart]

She at least acknowledges the truth before putting more importance on the matters at hand. Also, can that hindsight thing work in her favor for urging Ned to go south? I mean if things for Ned had not gone south (hahahahah slap me...) it would've been great advice. It's a prestigious job, the marriage alliance of Sansa and Joffrey was good in theory(it's only Joffrey that diminishes this) and the kingdom would've stayed strongly united. (Damn Jaime, fathering those kids...) There's nothing wrong with ambition, and Catelyn telling him to go south is only wrong in hindsight.

[coil]

She at least acknowledges the truth before putting more importance on the matters at hand. Also, can that hindsight thing work in her favor for urging Ned to go south? I mean if things for Ned had not gone south (hahahahah slap me...) it would've been great advice. It's a prestigious job, the marriage alliance of Sansa and Joffrey was good in theory(it's only Joffrey that diminishes this) and the kingdom would've stayed strongly united. (Damn Jaime, fathering those kids...) There's nothing wrong with ambition, and Catelyn telling him to go south is only wrong in hindsight.

My point isn't that telling Ned to go south is a wrong action. Every hint points toward that being the best course of action at that moment and she rightfully does so.

My point is that she doesn't actually acknowledges the truth, and that Others are never mentioned again.

She has no way to comprehend the Others and their eventual menace, and from finding some direwolves in a field to recognising the worst threat the Seven Kingdom have to face in centuries there is a lot of work to do: the two events aren't necessarly correlated. So either she didn't really noticed the Others' threat (and who could, south of the Wall) and was just speaking about vague dark times (technically meaningless), or she noticed and conveniently ignored the matter through all the series, since she never speaks of it again.

I don't get why speaking of a vague sentence immediately makes you particularly intelligent, especially given the actual info she had or her following course of actions through all the series.

[The Poster Who Was Promisd]

I'm still not seeing any good arguments against Cat recognizing the possibility of danger beyond the Wall. Eddards says Others don't exist, no one has seen them. She points out a similar thing about direwolves, the suggestion being they could definitely be real. This isn't quite "raise the banners, go fight the white walkers!" but its more than any other northern commander did. Plus, OP said Catelyn recognizes the real threat before anyone, not makes baby swapping deal with the real threat.

She doesn't say "Others," she says "darker things." She might have meant grumkins, for all we know. This, like most of her "wisdom," could also be interpreted as simple fear.

[Natalia Borgia]

This topic. Again.

From our POV as readers it is easy to criticize almost all of Catelyn Tully Stark Stoneheart's decisions.

However some of her decisions are just bad as the lady of Winterfell:

1. Leaving Winterfell to tell Ned about the danger because it turns out she NEVER gets home ( why not send- a bannerman, send a raven to Edmure or her uncle, send Theon which in hindsight would have been better).

2. Trusting crazy Lysa and not asking others for their counsel oh that's right she trusts LITTLEFINGER for cripes sake!

3. Sending her daughters to KL after Bran's fall ( she could have stalled asked for time etc. if Sansa complained lock her in a tower :)- who would send their daughters away after such a horrific accident? After the assassin attempt why not send a raven to the party on the Kingsroad and make up a story and send Robb, Rodrik, Theon, and the Greatjohn to escort the girls back to Winterfell because of a horrible "accident" involving Catelyn?

These are just the bad decisions in the first part of AGOT- I could go on about her irrational hatred of Jon, her neglecting Rickon, her irrational hatred of Tyrion but without her decisions we would have had a much nicer story for the Stark family.

Once she knows Robb is intent on being King why not broker a better alliance than the Frey's who her OWN lord father Hoster would never have considered as marriage prospects. They needed the Twins but if she would have "known" so much about Lord Walder then why not realize he needed to get rid of stoat looking daughters and find husbands for them among Robb's banner men? Robb needed a wife with an army and gold. Not a one time river crossing pass.

[Natalia Borgia]

Smartest women in ASOAIF universe?

Lady Genna Lannister Frey

Olenna Tyrell

Randa Royce seems pretty bright

Melisandre