The Wisdom of Catelyn Tully

[Natalia Borgia]

Indeed.

And Lady Nym seems pretty smart.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Smartest women in ASOAIF universe?

Lady Genna Lannister Frey

Olenna Tyrell

Randa Royce seems pretty bright

Melisandre

Sarella

Tyene

Also Ellaria is smart and wise

[Mladen]

Smartest women in ASOAIF universe?

Lady Genna Lannister Frey

Olenna Tyrell

Randa Royce seems pretty bright

Melisandre

Genna and Randa are not that wise, smart yes but not wise, or perhaps I have missed some great wisdom from their mouths... Melisandre is powerful and influential, and she uses it on Stannis and Selyse, and Florents, which is so easy...

Olenna, in my opinion, is smart woman, but there in rank with Catelyn. She is more ruthless than Cat, but generally, I don't see some great wisdom in her, when she is, just as Cat, being overplayed by LF.

Also Ellaria is smart and wise

Ellaria is Dornish version of Catelyn. Which is incredibly funny that you love one and hate the other... They are basically saying the same lines, lol...

[Lee-Sensei]

This topic. Again.

From our POV as readers it is easy to criticize almost all of Catelyn Tully Stark Stoneheart's decisions.

However some of her decisions are just bad as the lady of Winterfell:

1. Leaving Winterfell to tell Ned about the danger because it turns out she NEVER gets home ( why not send- a bannerman, send a raven to Edmure or her uncle, send Theon which in hindsight would have been better).

2. Trusting crazy Lysa and not asking others for their counsel oh that's right she trusts LITTLEFINGER for cripes sake!

3. Sending her daughters to KL after Bran's fall ( she could have stalled asked for time etc. if Sansa complained lock her in a tower :)- who would send their daughters away after such a horrific accident? After the assassin attempt why not send a raven to the party on the Kingsroad and make up a story and send Robb, Rodrik, Theon, and the Greatjohn to escort the girls back to Winterfell because of a horrible "accident" involving Catelyn?

These are just the bad decisions in the first part of AGOT- I could go on about her irrational hatred of Jon, her neglecting Rickon, her irrational hatred of Tyrion but without her decisions we would have had a much nicer story for the Stark family.

Once she knows Robb is intent on being King why not broker a better alliance than the Frey's who her OWN lord father Hoster would never have considered as marriage prospects. They needed the Twins but if she would have "known" so much about Lord Walder then why not realize he needed to get rid of stoat looking daughters and find husbands for them among Robb's banner men? Robb needed a wife with an army and gold. Not a one time river crossing pass.

1) Because she didn't want the information to get out. She had to go herself. Robb needed to stay in Winterfell.

2) Why shouldn't she trust her sister? They hadn't seen each othe in 5 years. How was she supposed to know that she'd gone insane. And why shouldn't she trust LF. She grew up with them and they were like family. He seemed sincere.

3) Um... why not? What does Bran falling have to do with sending her daughters to KL. And wasn't that Ned's decision anyways because he wanted them to grow up with Robert's kids and become friends?

4) Raven can be intercepted. I believe she said that specifically.

5) Her hatred of Jon is entirely rational. He is a threat to her children.

6) Hating Tyrion is entirely rational. The guys a real scumbag.

7) Give the Starks some agency. Cat's one of the smartest Starks and Robb and Ned screwed themselves over.

8) They needed the Freys.

9) The reason Hoster didn't marry one of his kids to a Frey was because he was saving them for LP's. Cat was betrothed to Brandon and married Ned Stark. That bound the North to them. Lysa was almost betrothed to Jaime before his vows and then married Jon Arryn. That bound the Vale to them. He tried to get Edmure to marry Arianne and bind Dorne to them, but that fell through because Doran's a Targ supporter. He did try to get Brynden to marry one of Walder Frey's daughters though.

10) The Frey's do have armies and gold, but who should Robb have married then? An LP's daughter? Which one. The Arryns are already related to them and are staying put. Stannis isn't going to join Robb while Robb calls himself King so the Baratheons are out. Trystane is betrothed to Myrcella and the Martells are Targ supporters. The Greyjoys hate the Starks so Asha's not an option. The Tyrells want Margaery as Queen. There were no other options and Robb agreed to it.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Ellaria is Dornish version of Catelyn. Which is incredibly funny that you love one and hate the other... They are basically saying the same lines, lol...

HA HA HA :lmao: :lol: :rofl: :lmao: :lol: :rofl: :lmao: :lol: :rofl: :lmao: Great joke!

[Mladen]

HA HA HA :lmao: :lol: :rofl: :lmao: :lol: :rofl: :lmao: :lol: :rofl: :lmao: Great joke!

The fact you don't see it is the clear example of how hatred can cloud your judgement... You can laugh as much as you want, that doesn't make it less of a truth...

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The fact you don't see it is the clear example of how hatred can cloud your judgement... You can laugh as much as you want, that doesn't make it less of a truth...

That is your opinion but that doesn't mean that is the truth. Ellaria is both smart and wise Cat is smart that simple. I don't think that I can make my self more clear than that.

[Mladen]

That is your opinion but that doesn't mean that is the truth. Ellaria is both smart and wise Cat is smart that simple.

LOL... No, not my opinion, conclusions I have made by reading and analyzing both characters. Something you have never done. So, before you start complaining about my arguments, please provide something that makes my claims false. I can provide several textual proofs in which we see that Ellaria and Cat are two sides of the same coin. They are not same characters, but their storyarcs share great deal. Only a person who hasn't read the books, or who doesn't want to see it due to trollish hatred would oppose that.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

LOL... No, not my opinion, conclusions I have made by reading and analyzing both characters. Something you have never done. So, before you start complaining about my arguments, please provide something that makes my claims false. I can provide several textual proofs in which we see that Ellaria and Cat are two sides of the same coin. They are not same characters, but their storyarcs share great deal. Only a person who hasn't read the books, or who doesn't want to see it due to trollish hatred would oppose that.

You are right they are the same coin: Ellaria is the good decent wise person-Cat is not, she is smart but not wise. The fact that I am a hater and according to you I am biased the same applies to you. You are also biased. So, I don't see why we should continue to flog a dead horse.

[Salinda]

This topic. Again.

From our POV as readers it is easy to criticize almost all of Catelyn Tully Stark Stoneheart's decisions.

However some of her decisions are just bad as the lady of Winterfell:

1. Leaving Winterfell to tell Ned about the danger because it turns out she NEVER gets home ( why not send- a bannerman, send a raven to Edmure or her uncle, send Theon which in hindsight would have been better).

2. Trusting crazy Lysa and not asking others for their counsel oh that's right she trusts LITTLEFINGER for cripes sake!

3. Sending her daughters to KL after Bran's fall ( she could have stalled asked for time etc. if Sansa complained lock her in a tower :)- who would send their daughters away after such a horrific accident? After the assassin attempt why not send a raven to the party on the Kingsroad and make up a story and send Robb, Rodrik, Theon, and the Greatjohn to escort the girls back to Winterfell because of a horrible "accident" involving Catelyn?

These are just the bad decisions in the first part of AGOT- I could go on about her irrational hatred of Jon, her neglecting Rickon, her irrational hatred of Tyrion but without her decisions we would have had a much nicer story for the Stark family.

Once she knows Robb is intent on being King why not broker a better alliance than the Frey's who her OWN lord father Hoster would never have considered as marriage prospects. They needed the Twins but if she would have "known" so much about Lord Walder then why not realize he needed to get rid of stoat looking daughters and find husbands for them among Robb's banner men? Robb needed a wife with an army and gold. Not a one time river crossing pass.

1. She goes herself because she wants her information to be taken seriously, and relayed directly to her husband. Also she wished to arrive in the capital before Ned, so her only choices on such short notice were Rodrik, Theon or Luwin. Going herself in this instance is not a bad choice

2. Why shouldn't she assume that her sister can be trusted? She had no idea that the years at King's Landing had made her mentally ill. And trusting Littlefinger is only a mistake to the omniprescent reader. Multiple other characters trust him because he gives them no reason to distrust him and is very helpful. This is what GRRM himself has said about Littlefinger

3. She begged Ned to stay after Bran's fall, he refused. This would come with the girls staying as well.

She does not neglect Rickon, her life is just thrown in turmoil and thus has higher priorities than being with Rickon, liking advising her son who is now at war. She does not hate Jon or Tyrion, she is distant to one and is only involved with the other due to a misunderstanding

Walder did not just provide a one time crossing pass, he provided Robb with an army as as well. And there was no better house Robb could have been betrothed to, to forge an alliance.

[Rhaegar Targaryen II]

People think cat is stupid? i mean i can get that argument for Ned heck even dany, but cat she is in no way stupid she just made errors and causality took effect.

Nice OP i agree its a shame that it was events beyond her control that led to her mistakes. I do think taking tyrion captive was a mistake, but she had accused him of a crime, its not her fault lysa was too dumb and instead of holding a private court in her solar she made tyrion have a big public trail and get the better of her.

Not her fault theon captured winterfell and led her to freeing jamie. Still he had to own up for this error since it stragetically weakened them even more, but hey crap happens in war. Jon Con can tell you that.

[Mladen]

You are right they are the same coin: Ellaria is the good decent wise person-Cat is not, she is smart but not wise. The fact that I am a hater and according to you I am biased the same applies to you. You are also biased. So, I don't see why we should continue to flog a dead horse.

No, I want to hear this. I am not interested in stupid hate debates... Tell me, when has Ellaria showed the wisdom Catelyn didn't? What was her moment of wisdom that Catelyn didn't have. You can flog your dead horse, and being beaten by logic every single time when anyone who has read ASOIAF so easily make your claims laughable... So, let me hear... When was Ellaria wise? When she did something Cat didn't do?

As for me being bias, no, dear. There is only one character people can accuse me of being bias to. This is common sense.

[TalalOfDorne]

Nice to come back to see a topic like this after a long absence from the forum. Great work OP.

[Mark Antony]

Nice to come back to see a topic like this after a long absence from the forum. Great work OP.

Welcome back :cheers:

[Mladen]

Nice to come back to see a topic like this after a long absence from the forum. Great work OP.

Oh, my dear friend... We missed you so much... Good to have you back...

[Cat Alayne]

HA HA HA :lmao: :lol: :rofl: :lmao: :lol: :rofl: :lmao: :lol: :rofl: :lmao: Great joke!

Catelyn:

“Why not a peace?” Catelyn asked.

The lords looked at her, but it was Robb’s eyes she felt, his and his alone. “My lady, they murdered my lord father, your husband,” he said grimly. He unsheathed his longsword and laid it on the table before him, the bright steel on the rough wood. “This is the only peace I have for Lannisters.”

The Greatjon bellowed his approval, and other men added their voices, shouting and drawing swords and pounding their fists on the table. Catelyn waited until they had quieted. “My lords,” she said then, “Lord Eddard was your liege, but I shared his bed and bore his children. Do you think I love him any less than you?” Her voice almost broke with her grief, but Catelyn took a long breath and steadied herself. “Robb, if that sword could bring him back, I should never let you sheathe it until Ned stood at my side once more... but he is gone, and hundred Whispering Woods will not change that. Ned is gone, and Daryn Hornwood, and Lord Karstark’s valiant sons, and many other good men besides, and none of them will return to us. Must we have more deaths still?”

“You are a woman, my lady,” the Greatjon rumbled in his deep voice. “Women do not understand these things.”

“You are the gentle sex,” said Lord Karstark, with the lines of grief fresh on his face. “A man has a need for vengeance.”

“Give me Cersei Lannister, Lord Karstark, and you would see how gentle a woman can be,” Catelyn replied. “Perhaps I do not understand tactics and strategy... but I understand futility. We went to war when Lannister armies were ravaging the riverlands, and Ned was a prisoner, falsely accused of treason. We fought to defend ourselves, and to win my lord’s freedom.

“Well, the one is done, and the other forever beyond our reach. I will mourn for Ned until the end of my days, but I must think of the living. I want my daughters back, and the queen holds them still. If I must trade our four Lannisters for their two Starks, I will call that a bargain and thank the gods. I want you safe, Robb, ruling at Winterfell from your father’s seat. I want you to live your life, to kiss a girl and wed a woman and father a son. I want to write an end to this. I want to go home, my lords, and weep for my husband.”

Ellaria:

Ellaria’s cheeks were wet with tears, her dark eyes shining. Even weeping, she has a strength in her, the captain thought.

“Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maiden-hood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end?” Ellaria Sand laid her hand on the Mountain’s head. “I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?”

“What would you have us do, my lady?” asked the Lady Nym. “Shall we lay down our spears and smile, and forget all the wrongs that have been done to us?”

“War will come, whether we wish it or not,” said Obara. “A boy king sits the Iron Throne. Lord Stannis holds the Wall and is gathering northmen to his cause. The two queens are squabbling over Tommen like bitches with a juicy bone. The ironmen have taken the Shields and are raiding up the Mander, deep into the heart of the Reach, which means Highgarden will be preoccupied as well. Our enemies are in disarray. The time is ripe.”

“Ripe for what? To make more skulls?” Ellaria Sand turned to the prince. “They will not see. I can hear no more of this.”

“Go back to your girls, Ellaria,” the prince told her. “I swear to you, no harm will come to them.” “My prince.” Ellaria kissed him on the brow and took her leave. Areo Hotah was sad to see her

go. She is a good woman.

[Mladen]

Catelyn:

Ellaria:

That's exactly where I was aiming at...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

First, congratulations to the OP for compiling this list.

Catelyn is IMO one of the smartest characters of the series. To me, it doesn't matter if her decisions were right or wrong - most of the times, this is proven only in hindsight and also many times the result depends on unpredictable factors and/or the accuracy of the initial information.

What matters most, IMO, is the way those decisions are thought out and executed.

Catelyn always has valid and reasonable arguments to back up her ideas and takes the best available steps to accomplish her goals. That is what marks her as smart.

She's an out of the box thinker and personally I was very impressed by her stance and proposals in Cat-Stannis-Renly meeting.

{The end result is not always the best of criteria, IMO; consider Dany, for examble, when she walked into the pyre. Had she burnt, as would be the mostly expected outcome, she would be considered as crazy as the Brightflame. She didn't - but in both cases the methodology of her reasoning would be identical.}

On the first point.

I do think it's a stretch to say that she recognised the real threat. But...

Throughout the series there is an inversion of what is defined as "open-minded" in relation to our real middle ages and that is the way the Supernatural is viewed.

We are used to the idea that progressive thinking is to dispute the supernatural as an explanation or a cause of events, and to try and find natural/logical explanations instead. That is correct, in the real world, but in ASOIAF universe this is categorically set as wrong in the very first prologue chapter. In-universe the supernatural is very real but characters deny its existence just because (the maesters say so, no one has seen... etc). The open-mined characters in-series are those who allow, in their minds, a possibility for the supernatural to exist and play a role. Tyrion gets props for that. Marwyn too. Why shouldn't Catelyn? (especially when she had a very good argument to answer the "no one has seen..." triviality).

On Ellaria.

She has a great speech about revenge. Catelyn has one, too. Catelyn has also a very poetic internal monologue on the living vs the dead when she's alone with Ned's bones that's very similar to Ellaria's living Oberyn vs the scull comparison.

However, I wonder whether Ellaria would still keep these beautiful ideas if, after losing Oberyn, all her little snakes were dead, cripled and then dead, missing and thought to be dead and hostage & forcibly married to the enemy. Ellaria still has four perfect reasons to value peace over revenge. Catelyn has lost it all...

On staying with Robb and "neglecting" Bran and Rickon.

“Robb, I will not soften the truth for you. If you lose, there is no hope for any of us. They say there is naught but stone at the heart of Casterly Rock. Remember the fate of Rhaegar’s children.”

... and Robb is a 14-15 year old boy with no experience in battlefield and, even more, in politics who needs all the help he can get. Cat's advice was invaluable, weren't she there Robb would have made fatal mistakes from the let go. The only way to secure her younger children is to contribute in Robb's war effort.

(Oh, too many things to say about Catelyn, I could go on forever. But I think I should wait for a re-read to do it properly).

[sandywinder]

I neither hate Cat nor love her. But anyone who would treat a step-son the way she treated Jon all his life is, in my opinion, pretty awful. But that doesn't mean she is not intelligent. She is intelligent (for many of the reasons already stated) but even intelligent people make stupid decisions on occasion. And arresting Tyrion was a terrible one. It was inevitable that it would have serious repercussions. How could it not? And there was no need for it despite what has been argued. First she hides from Tyrion, which was wise, but then arrests him out of the blue. They meet at the Crossroads Inn. This is just as much the route to Riverrun as it is to KL. So if she didn't want anyone to suspect her visit to KL she could have just said she was returning from RR. She had no firm evidence, other than the hear-say of a well-known deceiver, to arrest Tyrion. She acted like a vigilante. And it was partly this decision that led to the rebellion. Of course the Lannisters were even more to blame, but that does not excuse her.

[JustAnObsessedFan]

I love Cat. She was a humane character, she had depth. She had flaws, but she couldn't help those flaws because they all stemmed from good intentions/bad things others had done to her.