The Wisdom of Catelyn Tully

[The Sleeper]

oh, I don't disagree with your point. By "transference" I meant the way she found herself loving Ned despite his being the allegedly guilty part and her inability to feel warmth toward Jon, though knowing he's innocent and causing her some shame. She confesses to herself (it's Cat II I think in aGoT) that she couldn't forgive Ned, but loved him anyway, and that the emotional restriction was passed onto Jon, whom she tried to love but couldn't.

On a personal level, I'm not bothered about it or anything overall. I think it's human, very understandable, and I completely forgive her for it.

Speaking to the rational side of this though (so not the issue of whether she ought to have loved him because he's a child in her home or anything), I think keeping him at arm's length was perhaps strategically unsound. Her fears that her own children's inheritance could be at risk by his acceptance in the family could have perhaps been undermined by her being more accepting of him, even if her heart wasn't in it. Had Jon turned out differently, making it clear that she didn't want him there and wasn't a Stark could have backfired. Would Theon have gone back to Winterfell as a conqueror if he wasn't constantly reminded that it could never be his?

I don't see her suspicion of Jon as unrational. Jon and his siblings love each other now, but their children. It is not uncommon for relationships to go sour after life happens and ambitions set in and beloved siblings become bitter enemies. And though he is ashamed of it Jon has felt this pressure. And for the most part Ned treated Jon as a trueborn son. Think of Daemon Blackfyre.It takes one ambitious individual to start telling Jon that his father esteemed him more than Robb. It seems unlikely, but it is not an imaginary danger.

I have to agree though, that they way she dealt with this (or more accurately refused to deal with this) would not have helped alleviate the danger. I think the best way would have been to give Jon a place, beside his brother where he would have been appreciated and usefull and he would have been loyal to Robb for life. Think of the campaign south with Jon being by Robb's side. I think that while Jon would have done the exact same things if he was in Robb's shoes, he would have told him the exact same things Cat did ahd he been by his side. Because he would be nearly as obssessed as Cat with watching Robb's back.

[The Poster Who Was Promisd]

Cat is a well-intentioned, often insightful woman who is nevertheless responsible for more suffering than any other character in the series. Leaving aside many debatable points, she is clearly responsible for the following:

1. Vouching for the least trustworthy man in the seven kingdoms. Without Cat's seal, it seems highly unlikely that Ned trusts Littlefinger.

2. Inducing Rob to appoint Roose Bolton to command the foot. Yes, the Greatjon probably would have incurred more casualties, but he was loyal. The books are too full of references to Boltons wearing Starkskin cloaks to believe that Roose's betrayal could not have been predicted. If Roose is with Rob, then he can't communicate freely with Tywin and couldn't scatter the loyal northern forces even if he did, which probably means the RW doesn't happen.

3. Betrothing Rob to a Frey in return for his allegiance, something he owed anyway. If a Frey is not good enough for Genna Lannister, how could one be good enough for the heir to Winterfell? She struck a remarkably poor bargain there.

4. Capturing Tyrion. Cat had no legal authority nor clear and present danger to justify this action, which was guaranteed to provoke a very strong reaction from Tywin. You know the song, right?

5. Freeing Jaime. Frey would not have dared to conduct the RW without Tywin's backing, and there is simply no way that Tywin agrees to it if Jaime is still at Riverrun.

These are all unforced errors, IMO, and if she had not made any one of them, the RW does not happen.

[butterbumps!]

I don't see her suspicion of Jon as unrational. Jon and his siblings love each other now, but their children. It is not uncommon for relationships to go sour after life happens and ambitions set in and beloved siblings become bitter enemies. And though he is ashamed of it Jon has felt this pressure. And for the most part Ned treated Jon as a trueborn son. Think of Daemon Blackfyre.It takes one ambitious individual to start telling Jon that his father esteemed him more than Robb. It seems unlikely, but it is not an imaginary danger.

I have to agree though, that they way she dealt with this (or more accurately refused to deal with this) would not have helped alleviate the danger. I think the best way would have been to give Jon a place, beside his brother where he would have been appreciated and usefull and he would have been loyal to Robb for life. Think of the campaign south with Jon being by Robb's side. I think that while Jon would have done the exact same things if he was in Robb's shoes, he would have told him the exact same things Cat did ahd he been by his side. Because he would be nearly as obssessed as Cat with watching Robb's back.

There might be a misunderstanding.

I think the fact that the negative emotion she felt toward Ned became transferred over to her feelings of Jon, while acknowledging that it's Ned she can't forgive, but Jon she can't warm to, is irrational. And I don't fault her for it.

Conversely, I think she is being rational when she identifies Jon as a potential threat to her own children.

It's then whether she handles that threat in the most strategic fashion. I think we agree on this facet though. Does the risk of Jon's usurping his sibling's rights or betraying them become more or less likely if he's made to feel that he belongs there and is of House Stark, or by making him feel otherwise?

So just to reiterate, the part I find an irrational concession to emotion is: not forgiving Ned for those assorted insults and silence, but loving him anyway, while recognizing Jon as an innocent, yet transferring the emotion turmoil she'd feel toward Ned onto Jon. I find her reasons for distrusting Jon in terms of Stark children's right completely logical and reasonable. But I'm not sure that the way she proceeded to handle those fears was the most strategic.

But I think this is the one area where I see an interruption in her typically rational outlook.

[David Selig]

2. Inducing Rob to appoint Roose Bolton to command the foot. Yes, the Greatjon probably would have incurred more casualties, but he was loyal. The books are too full of references to Boltons wearing Starkskin cloaks to believe that Roose's betrayal could not have been predicted.

But this happened literally 1000 years ago or more. It is completely irrational to use this as a basis for predicting that Roose would betray the Starks.

Besides, he did what he had to at the Green Fork, Keeping him in charge of the foot away from the rest of the army after that was Robb's decision only.

[Mia B.]

In AGOT, one of the early chapters, Catelyn also fears for the symbolism that came with the dead direwolf who had stag antlers pierced through her body.

"Catelyn remembered the direwolf dead in the snow, the broken antler lodged deep in her throat. She had to make him see."

It was after Robert had asked him to become his hand, basically foreshadowing Ned's death

[LordStoneheart]

Why is the first point written off so much? She clearly tells Ned its totally possible the Others or other darker things are stirring beyond the Wall. It's quite Stannis-level attack on the Wall, but its something and even before Jon knows the threat. It's a good point Salinda made.

[The Sleeper]

There might be a misunderstanding.

I think the fact that the negative emotion she felt toward Ned became transferred over to her feelings of Jon, while acknowledging that it's Ned she can't forgive, but Jon she can't warm to, is irrational. And I don't fault her for it.

Conversely, I think she is being rational when she identifies Jon as a potential threat to her own children.

It's then whether she handles that threat in the most strategic fashion. I think we agree on this facet though. Does the risk of Jon's usurping his sibling's rights or betraying them become more or less likely if he's made to feel that he belongs there and is of House Stark, or by making him feel otherwise?

So just to reiterate, the part I find an irrational concession to emotion is: not forgiving Ned for those assorted insults and silence, but loving him anyway, while recognizing Jon as an innocent, yet transferring the emotion turmoil she'd feel toward Ned onto Jon. I find her reasons for distrusting Jon in terms of Stark children's right completely logical and reasonable. But I'm not sure that the way she proceeded to handle those fears was the most strategic.

But I think this is the one area where I see an interruption in her typically rational outlook.

I'm not contesting anything in particular just trying to expand a bit and going off on the occasional tangent. And I agree this is the most prominent situation where her eomtions were not conducive to the best possiblle outcome for her goals.

Frankly I don't understand the how being emotional or acting with what information she had at a time is an accusation. Emotions are not side effects, they inform they make of a character and what that character pusrsues. And most people, most of the time act according to what they deem to be a good idea at the time. The exception would be when they know they are acting on a bad idea but do it anyway.

Well, Cat pursues the wellfare of her family, but feels compassion for everyone and has a clear picture of what it takes to achieve it.

[The Poster Who Was Promisd]

But this happened literally 1000 years ago or more. It is completely irrational to use this as a basis for predicting that Roose would betray the Starks.

Besides, he did what he had to at the Green Fork, Keeping him in charge of the foot away from the rest of the army after that was Robb's decision only.

Remember that Cat questioned the choice of Umber because what was needed was "cold cunning," and Robb's response [of Bolton] was "That man scares me." Neither was blind to who he was. I can't recall who said it or when (Jaime in AFFC, perhaps?), but there is a also a comment about each great house having uppity bannermen - the Tullys have the Freys, the Lannisters the Tarbecks and Reynes, and the Starks have the Boltons.

As for not bringing the two forces back together, that would've been easier said than done. Tywin still has the army that smashed Bolton the first time, which could take him in the rear if he tried to retreat to the Twins and prevented him reaching the Ruby Ford.

[HexMachina]

Cat is a well-intentioned, often insightful woman who is nevertheless responsible for more suffering than any other character in the series. Leaving aside many debatable points, she is clearly responsible for the following:

1. Vouching for the least trustworthy man in the seven kingdoms. Without Cat's seal, it seems highly unlikely that Ned trusts Littlefinger.

2. Inducing Rob to appoint Roose Bolton to command the foot. Yes, the Greatjon probably would have incurred more casualties, but he was loyal. The books are too full of references to Boltons wearing Starkskin cloaks to believe that Roose's betrayal could not have been predicted. If Roose is with Rob, then he can't communicate freely with Tywin and couldn't scatter the loyal northern forces even if he did, which probably means the RW doesn't happen.

3. Betrothing Rob to a Frey in return for his allegiance, something he owed anyway. If a Frey is not good enough for Genna Lannister, how could one be good enough for the heir to Winterfell? She struck a remarkably poor bargain there.

4. Capturing Tyrion. Cat had no legal authority nor clear and present danger to justify this action, which was guaranteed to provoke a very strong reaction from Tywin. You know the song, right?

5. Freeing Jaime. Frey would not have dared to conduct the RW without Tywin's backing, and there is simply no way that Tywin agrees to it if Jaime is still at Riverrun.

These are all unforced errors, IMO, and if she had not made any one of them, the RW does not happen.

1) Catelyn has no way of knowing how untrustworthy he is though. To all appearances he is doing his best to help her and Ned. What reason in the text does she have not to trust him?

2) I'm not going to comment on this one as I don't really have an opinion on it. I might come back to it another time when I think it through though :dunno: Though I suspect you might be right. I'd have to think on that one properly.

3) First off this is certainly a forced decision. Lord Frey didn't owe allegiance to Robb at all. He owed it to the Tullys...but marching into the Twins and demanding he open the gates because: "I am a Tully and you owe me fealty!" would achieve nothing. Lord Frey held all of the cards at that meeting, if Catelyn was unable to persuade him the Riverrun would have fallen and Robb would either have been forced to face Lord Tywin or flee back to the North. And really, a Frey bride isn't a bad deal for the Lord of Winterfell (since Robb was not a King at this point). They are a wealthy family with lands bordering the North, and we know Starks have married Southern families in the past (Blackwoods, Corbrays, Waynwoods, Royces). Robb's bannermen have already shown loyalty and love for him, why not cement anohter family into the Northern alliance? With regards to the Lannisters, Genna's match was not a bad one, the Lannisters are just far too uppity and proud. And also, its unlikely Catelyn could have refused anyway, since they absolutely had to cross the river. I'm interested to know exactly what you think she should have done.

4) She had good grounds to suspect Tyrion had sent the cut-throat for Bran, as she had no reason to suspect LF would lie to her. In hindsight and with reader's knowledge, it becomes obvious. But Cat sadly doesn't have the knowledge we have on the matter. As others have said, once Tyrion returns to KL and mentions seeing Catelyn on the Kingsroad, Cersei and Jaime, knowing that Bran has woken up, will suspect he has told and Catelyn has told Ned and act against him all the more quickly. Her move was actually very logical, and was very forced imo. She had tried to avoid making that action by avoiding looking at him in an attempt to not be recognised. Though she should have listened to Rodrik in fairness, and not gone to the Inn.

5) I'm going to have to look around. I'm sure I saw a thread before that suggested there was evidence of the Red Wedding being planned before Jaime was freed. But I would need to check that to be sure, so disregard this for now.

[Luthien Targaryen]

I'm very fond of Catelyn, for me she's one of the easiest characters to understand in terms of motivation and character.

I think that she is/was a very smart and intelligent woman, she practically ran Riverrun as a child when Lord Hoster was away, and as far as we can tell she ran Winterfell with equal efficiency. She was brilliant within her sphere of expertise, being the Lady of the Castle. She obviously went a bit off the rails when Bran had his "accident" and it took the attempt on his life for her to snap out of that. I blame this, and the uncertainty she must have felt sending Ned, Sansa and Arya south for her shocking parting with Jon, which kind of freaks me out a bit, still. I still think the situation between her and Jon could have been eased if Ned had told her the whole truth about his parentage or at least made up a convincing cover story...

She's forced to play the game of thrones when Ned is captured, and ok, in retrospect "arresting" Tyrion wasn't the best of decisions, but she didn't know he was innocent or that her sister had turned into a fruitcake. Tyrion looks fairly guilty given the evedence she's been given, Littlefinger has done a good job of stitching him up. Who would you rather trust? Your childhood best friend or the shifty looking guy everybody's told you is a debauched sleazebag? Tyrion takes it fairly well, he grumbles at lot, but doesn't seem to hold it against anyone or take up the grievance with Sansa.

Was freeing Jaime an "unforced error?" i don't think so. I think that not really getting over the death of your beloved husband, being terrified for the lives of your kids (has she heard about Bran and Rickon yet? I can't remember), knowing your sister is bonkers and your father is dying and basically seeing your life fall apart in front of your eyes are reasons enough to be stressed out of your mind. And such things are enough to influence your thinking and decision making, especially when it comes to taking risks. She basically decides that freeing Jaime is the gamble she is prepared to take in order to have a shot at saving her daughters. She knows that Sansa and Arya aren't going to be priorities in a hostage negotiation because they're little girls and not of utmost importance to anyone other than her. It's a risky move, it doesn't pay off, but she thought it was worth it.

I think that one of the questions the series asks is "what will you do to protect those you love?", Catelyn becomes things she never dreamed she would have to be, a fighter, a strategist, err...a vengeful zombie woman (i'm still pissed about that....) and decides that to save her kids, she'll be prepared to make deals with her enemies. It's not her fault that briefly incarcerating two of Lord Tywin Lannister's sons is enough to earn her death and the wholesale slaughter of friends and family to the tune "The Rains of Castemere".

Someone said "Catelyn might not have been the smartest woman in the series..." But who is/was?

To my mind she's probably only beaten by Olenna Tyrell and Missandei, although I guess Val, Meera Reed, Margaery and Melisandre have potential to move up the list. Too bad Catelyn doesn't...

[Grail King]

I am soooooo hoping Sansa picks up her mother's gifts, and win things for House Stark with her wits.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Cat is a well-intentioned, often insightful woman who is nevertheless responsible for more suffering than any other character in the series. Leaving aside many debatable points, she is clearly responsible for the following:

1. Vouching for the least trustworthy man in the seven kingdoms. Without Cat's seal, it seems highly unlikely that Ned trusts Littlefinger.

2. Inducing Rob to appoint Roose Bolton to command the foot. Yes, the Greatjon probably would have incurred more casualties, but he was loyal. The books are too full of references to Boltons wearing Starkskin cloaks to believe that Roose's betrayal could not have been predicted. If Roose is with Rob, then he can't communicate freely with Tywin and couldn't scatter the loyal northern forces even if he did, which probably means the RW doesn't happen.

3. Betrothing Rob to a Frey in return for his allegiance, something he owed anyway. If a Frey is not good enough for Genna Lannister, how could one be good enough for the heir to Winterfell? She struck a remarkably poor bargain there.

4. Capturing Tyrion. Cat had no legal authority nor clear and present danger to justify this action, which was guaranteed to provoke a very strong reaction from Tywin. You know the song, right?

5. Freeing Jaime. Frey would not have dared to conduct the RW without Tywin's backing, and there is simply no way that Tywin agrees to it if Jaime is still at Riverrun.

These are all unforced errors, IMO, and if she had not made any one of them, the RW does not happen.

What

How can Catelyn be responsible for more suffering than any other character for well intetionally making some mistakes based on limited information when we have actively malicious characters who directly caused a shitload of more suffering. Come on, she doesn't even compare to the likes of Cersei, LF, Tywin, Jaime, Varys, and more.

[Darkbringer]

So, you subscribe to the Melisandre school of ethical thought?

Also, the Tully thing makes no sense. Cat's the one who thought to put the fighting aside and come to a Great Council on the matter. That's rather "big picture" imo. Also, in terms of Tully self-centeredness, Edmure's like the one noble we see who actually tries actively protecting his smallfolk.

I can tell by your other comments that you didn't mean this in a hate-mongering or dismissive capacity or anything.

Though I think whether she "hates" Jon is debatable, I actually agree with your general sentiment-- this is a pretty irrational transference of emotion on her part. I think that it's clear Jon is the major exception to her otherwise strong record of being sensible and measured about things. I think this is her one big concession to emotion over reason and rectitude. ETA: prior to witnessing the RW, I mean.

I think what's a shame is that this issue stands out so much that even though it's in reality the exception to the rule, it's seen as the rule.

Not sure what you mean by Melisandre school if ethics

. But in my mind Edmure is pretty stiff necked. He may care about the small folk, but I think that that was as much about self image as about ethics. Edmure complains like a boy about the Frey marriage, and he is not particularly impressive at Riverrun later, although I'll admit he's been through alot. His shit eating grin to Jaime is hilarious, but it leaves me with the feeling that he has alot of growing up to do. Lysa speaks for herself. And old Hoster seemed the epitome of stiff necked authority. I probably spoke to harshly, I actual like the Tullys, but I maintain that they seem to lack a bit of nous, on occasion

[Cat Alayne]

Not sure what you mean by Melisandre school if ethics

. But in my mind Edmure is pretty stiff necked. He may care about the small folk, but I think that that was as much about self image as about ethics. Edmure complains like a boy about the Frey marriage, and he is not particularly impressive at Riverrun later, although I'll admit he's been through alot. His shit eating grin to Jaime is hilarious, but it leaves me with the feeling that he has alot of growing up to do. Lysa speaks for herself. And old Hoster seemed the epitome of stiff necked authority. I probably spoke to harshly, I actual like the Tullys, but I maintain that they seem to lack a bit of nous, on occasion

Melisandre school of ethics= her quote to davos about the bit of rot in an onion. Black and white, there's only good and evil type thing.

Edmure and Lysa are not really the best examples of Tullys. Lysa is mentally unwell, and Edmure is the sort of overprivelidged, baby of the family who never really had any responsibility before the events of the novels. Plus he is an innate softie, meaning he's empathetic and kind but not always astute.

Hoster, Catelyn and Brynden all posses a great deal of common sense and intelligence. Hoster was stiff necked I imagine, but that doesn't undermine his intelligence. In fact i'd say he's on par with Tywin. Read these: http://bryndenbfish.wordpress.com/2013/12/13/noble-as-a-king-an-examination-of-hoster-tully-part-1-family-duty-honor/

[Darkbringer]

Melisandre school of ethics= her quote to davos about the bit of rot in an onion. Black and white, there's only good and evil type thing.

Edmure and Lysa are not really the best examples of Tullys. Lysa is mentally unwell, and Edmure is the sort of overprivelidged, baby of the family who never really had any responsibility before the events of the novels. Plus he is an innate softie, meaning he's empathetic and kind but not always astute.

Hoster, Catelyn and Brynden all posses a great deal of common sense and intelligence. Hoster was stiff necked I imagine, but that doesn't undermine his intelligence. In fact i'd say he's on par with Tywin. Read these: http://bryndenbfish.wordpress.com/2013/12/13/noble-as-aI,-king-an-examination-of-hoster-tully-part-1-family-duty-honor/

Interesting analysis, possibly a little gushing, bu it makes a few good points. Hoster is probably in the same league as Tywin, but at the end of the day Tywin was a greater success. Interestingly both houses have been brought low by the disfunction within the family members. The Tullys greatest problems I would say are the unresolved madness of Lysa (more than a little bit Hosters fault), and the brash immaturity of Edmure. Edmure was always going to be the heir, so there is really no excuse for him to be so ill prepared, IMO. Agree with Blackfish, but Brynden is a man of action, he hasn't really helped either his own house or Robb in a political sense. Again, he was too stiff necked to ever get married. Even if he is actually gay, or asexual, would a sham marriage ala Renly be so horrible?

[Catastrophe]

The people arguing that Catelyn was incompetent are making the same mistake as the people who said that Jon Arryn was a terrible Hand: They're looking at events from a bird's eye perspective, and not from the limited perspective of the characters. Sure, some characters made decisions that turned out poorly for them, but in a lot of cases, those were the best decisions they could've made, given the information they had available to them at the time.

As readers, we know not to trust Littlefinger because we're aware of his treacherous behavior, but think about it from Catelyn's point of view. He was one of her closest friends, why would he lie to her about something extremely important, when it wouldn't even seem to benefit him in any way? As for her suggestion to have Roose Bolton lead Robb's forces, she was completely right. Bolton was a better commander, and at that point in time, he was still loyal to Robb. Catelyn can't read minds or predict the future, that hardly makes her an idiot.

Also, a lot of readers seem to think that ruthless characters like Tywin are smarter than honorable characters like Ned, Catelyn, and Robb, because they're more successful in the short term. But in my opinion, if someone is willing to do things that most people would find reprehensible, that doesn't make them a genius, it just makes them a horrible person. Tywin was intelligent and refined and charismatic, but when you really look at who he was and what he did, it's clear that he was just another brutal murderous thug who relied on force and coercion to get what he wanted. That hardly makes him exceptional; Westeros certainly has no shortage of people like that.

One of the major themes of A Song of Ice and Fire is that, in the long run, Eddard's way of ruling is superior to Tywin's. The last two books are proof enough of that: The Northmen are still seeking to avenge Ned and Robb, and the people of the Riverlands are conspiring to restore the Tullys to power. Meanwhile, the Lannisters and the Freys and the Boltons have made enemies of practically all of Westeros, and even their "allies" are just waiting for the right opportunity to stab them in the back. Even if their houses survive, their dishonorable actions have ensured that no one will trust them again for generations. When Ned and Catelyn and Robb died, their people genuinely mourned them. The only person who mourned Tywin was Grand Maester Pycelle.

[Cat Alayne]

Interesting analysis, possibly a little gushing, bu it makes a few good points. Hoster is probably in the same league as Tywin, but at the end of the day Tywin was a greater success. Interestingly both houses have been brought low by the disfunction within the family members. The Tullys greatest problems I would say are the unresolved madness of Lysa (more than a little bit Hosters fault), and the brash immaturity of Edmure. Edmure was always going to be the heir, so there is really no excuse for him to be so ill prepared, IMO. Agree with Blackfish, but Brynden is a man of action, he hasn't really helped either his own house or Robb in a political sense. Again, he was too stiff necked to ever get married. Even if he is actually gay, or asexual, would a sham marriage ala Renly be so horrible?

Yeah although to be fair Hoster was gravely ill during the war of five kings so a comparison to Tywin there is unfair haha.

There are some interesting similarities between the Lannister and the Tully's, namely that they put family first and family ended up being the cause of both their downfalls. I do agree that Edmure should have been prepared better.

Again perhaps the biggest personality fault amongst the Tully's are their stubborness, and had Brynden married Bethany Redwyne as Hoster arranged, the entire course of the WO5K would have changed.

[Cat Alayne]

Also, a lot of readers seem to think that ruthless characters like Tywin are smarter than honorable characters like Ned, Catelyn, and Robb, because they're more successful in the short term. But in my opinion, if someone is willing to do things that most people would find reprehensible, that doesn't make them a genius, it just makes them a horrible person. Tywin was intelligent and refined and charismatic, but when you really look at who he was and what he did, it's clear that he was just another brutal murderous thug who relied on force and coercion to get what he wanted. That hardly makes him exceptional; Westeros certainly has no shortage of people like that.

One of the major themes of A Song of Ice and Fire is that, in the long run, Eddard's way of ruling is superior to Tywin's. The last two books are proof enough of that: The Northmen are still seeking to avenge Ned and Robb, and the people of the Riverlands are conspiring to restore the Tullys to power. Meanwhile, the Lannisters and the Freys and the Boltons have made enemies of practically all of Westeros, and even their "allies" are just waiting for the right opportunity to stab them in the back. Even if their houses survive, their dishonorable actions have ensured that no one will trust them again for generations. When Ned and Catelyn and Robb died, their people genuinely mourned them. The only person who mourned Tywin was Grand Maester Pycelle.

Amen :bowdown:

[The Sleeper]

I would like to contest the basis of releasing Jaime as an emotional decision. Certainly it was influenced by the reported deaths of Bran and Rickon. The question is what did it propell her to act towards? For one, as an emotional and impulsive decision it was carried out with meticulous planning and resourcefulness. It certainly was a desperate gamble with small chances of success and it certainly created a lot of problems for Robb as a King.

If we see some of the things she told Robb in the chapters leading up to that one and previously they include phrases like wars need not be fought to the last and that if the crown is the price for Sansa and Arya she would gladly pay it. This reveals it to be not an action taken in the cause of the King in the North. She had given up on that. This was done to preserve what was left of their family and it was a desperat gamble because they were in desperate straits. She knew what she was doing and why she was doing it. And she knew it was unequivocally treason.

For all it it worth, actualy both Tyrion and Jaime intended to live up to the bargain. As the fates would have it, it wasn't up to them.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

She wasn't stupid clearly, to say so is wrong but she was an emotional woman who often let her feelings impede more practical concerns. My biggest criticism of her would be the failure to secure Margaery for Robb after Renly's death and instead save Brienne. Huge political mistake.

Robb was already promised to a Frey, and I highly doubt Mace Tyrell would allow Margaery to marry Robb.

This. She was able to form liaisons and she knew the importance of those liaisons, it's not her fault that Robb wasn't thinking with his head.

I've never really understood Cat hate. She's clearly intelligent, just unappreciated by those around her.

As someone who is proud to be her hater I have to say that the fact that someone hates her doesn't mean that (s)he can't understand if she was smart or not. Cat belongs to smart people category but in the average or high average scale (100-119). She is not in the superior+ scale(120-<).