[BOOK SPOILERS] Nitpick Without Repercussion

[hannibal2121]

LOVED the episode, BUT several points that I did not like:

- The Wildlings south of the wall camping (w/ fire) within 400 yards of the Castle Black walls (very subtle!).

- It seemed like they used the same shot over and over again in the Castle Black courtyard -- perfectly matched pairs of combatants endlessly fighting each other. Became filler.

- Jon's decision to parlay/assassinate Mance. Other than the Giant's infiltration, the attack from the North was a complete failure. The attack from the South was the really threat (and it has been eliminated). Is it just me or do you think the NW's can hold the 700 foot wall and its tiny tunnel indefinitely (especially since Brothers can be relocated from Castle Black to the top of the Wall)? Of course, if I was Mance, I would instruct 1000 men to scale the wall a few miles to the east and to the west of Castle Black and then attack from the rear again. He had a good plan, but sent -- what -- 70 men? 50 more and the Wildlings never would have needed to attack from the North.

- Jon's mourning of Ygritte lasted a touch too long in the middle of the battle. The death was very moving as was his reaction, but then I felt like, "hey dude, stand up -- your brothers are dying all around you."

- Giving us only one Ghost attack (and then Ghost seemed to linger over the body as if he was sitting down to a six-course meal).

But the good far outweighed the bad for me.

[The ~ Red ~ Viper]

With the nw having tormund does anyone think he will replace rattleshirts role next season.The scythe move was cool I liked it,but why would 5- 6 men be climbing the wall,did they think they could just pull thereselfs up at the top without getting hit with a arrow.

[AegonVI_rules]

The 8 episodes before it that back this episode into a corner. Yes, a battle spectacular makes good TV, but only if you are invested in it - even if you stretched out Jon's material so that you can Episode 9 the battle, why was the prep mere discussion?

We begin the season with Jon having just returned and catch up occurs (Jon VI)

Then we have Jon accused and tried by Thorne and Slint (Jon IX), spared by Aemon (background of Jon X)

Then we have the Crasters Keep nonsense

Then we have the discussion of battle plans (Jon VII and IX elements)

Then we have the battle (Jon VII & VIII)

we've gone three chapters into Jon's material in 9 episodes, just starting the forth, and haven't actually done a lot of the material from them, instead doing nonsense filler rather than prepping for the battle*. Sam avoids it and arrives afterwards in the books, but as well as 3 chapters of Jon's SoS arc to go, there's 3 chapters of Sam left in the SoS material. And it's not like Jon doesn't have 13 chapters in Dance to cover next season... I guess, however, that the election isn't needed, Jon is last man standing as everyone will know Janos is a coward and poor leader, and Thorne is out of the picture. We'll probably just have Jon X next week.

What would have worked better for those 4 chapters is as follows, allowing for Sam, Slint and Thorne to be at the wall and a roughly similar outline.

Episode 1 - Jon fills people in and is filled in, has his trial (same as show)

Episode 2 - nothing (same as show)

Episode 3 - Wilding raid on a village (same as show), Jon's worry for the villagers leads to a plan bring the Molestown people to Castle Black (this deals with Sam's worries for Gilly's safety as the only woman at the wall, changes Jon's quest)

Episode 4 - Getting men for Molestown (similar to show)

Episode 5 - Molestown evacuation

Episode 6 - Plans to defend Castle Black

Episode 7 - Preparations for Battle inc Wildlings both sides of the wall

Episode 8 - Preparations for Battle ending just before it begins

Episode 9 - Battle of Castle Black, Jon leaving for Mance

Episode 10 - Battle of the Wall

*In the books, Jon evacuates Molestown (Jon VI), returns to Castle Black and is caught up on events (Jon VI), preps Castle Black with Noye (Jon VII), fights the attack from the south (Jon VII), fights the first attack from the north (Jon VIII), finds Noye and the giant (Jon VIII), gets the interim command from Aemon (Jon VIII), the turtle comes (Jon IX), Thorne and Slint arrive and accuse him (Jon IX), Jon thrown in ice cell (Jon IX), Janos (who seems to be in charge now) sends Jon to Mance as Aemon won't let him be executed (Jon X).

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I actually kinda prefer show Edd tbh. I'm in the rare minority of people that don't find book Edd hilarious.

I like both Edds, LOL I can see the potential of ShowEdd to give the books their due just by the looks on his face and some of his dialogue. I loved the hell out of the TVTeam of Edd and Grenn. I'm still pissed that they killed Grenn, I thought it looked for a second that it might have been Thorne to take his place at the last minute. Out of the three, I'm fine with loosing Pyp, he was the one who had the least developed personality, hell....all he did was usually sit around and look as sullen as Jon Snow, not a joke cracked, iirc.

[Chebyshov]

I like both Edds, LOL I can see the potential of ShowEdd to give the books their due just by the looks on his face and some of his dialogue. I loved the hell out of the TVTeam of Edd and Grenn. I'm still pissed that they killed Grenn, I thought it looked for a second that it might have been Thorne to take his place at the last minute. Out of the three, I'm fine with loosing Pyp, he was the one who had the least developed personality, hell....all he did was usually sit around and look as sullen as Jon Snow, not a joke cracked, iirc.

He had his little "you're too stupid to be a coward" moment with Grenn, but otherwise not really much to note about him. I really thought they'd have Pyp take the place of Dareon though, so I'm wondering if Arya is going to kill a NW member at all?

[Tankbuster]

And now we will never get the Turnips line.

[Peter George Stewart]

I was really quite disappointed by this episode, and it's probably my least favourite in the whole series so far, and I'm a bit worried that it's going to have lost the show some momentum in the eyes of the general public.

While I enjoyed the general fight scenes, the fire arrows, the single mammoth and couple of giants as much as anyone, and while I found the deaths in this episode moving enough, the episode just seems a waste of time to devote to the first testing skirmish at the Wall; having the rear attack at the same time just seemed half-arsed.

They could have cut out a lot of the fat (particularly Sam, much as I love him), and shown the couple of days, ending with Stannis "Tywining". Cheesy or not, that would give the punters a better sense of the whole thing.

Here's the thing: evidently, amongst genereal punters, nobody cares about what's going on at the Wall, except for Jon. Given that nobody cares, if you're going to devote a whole episode to Wall events, you've got to end it with something gratifying, and something that connects it to the stuff that's been depicted in the last few episodes. Stannis is a bit of a "bridge" in that regard - he's still connected with the Clash, and he would have formed a good link between all that and the Wall stuff.

I say this as someone who is about as far from a "Stannis lover" as one can be - yet, at the same time, you have to give Stannis his due as the one "king" who is doing something about the thing that's the biggest threat to Westeros.

I also say this as someone who's been a big fan of the way D&D have handled it all so far - but with this episode, I think they've mis-stepped. Not fatally (they still have a huge amount of momentum), and it's probably good that it's just before the finale (which I'm sure people will watch no matter what), but still, it's a bit disappointing.

[AegonVI_rules]

Oh, and wrt the 103 NW on the wall, don't forget that there were quite a few massacred in Molestown!

It's just Sam, Slint, Jon, Edd, Aemon and the boy who survived, not this 20 nonsense. No need for elections, or at least not drawn out ones: Edd, Sam and Jon is 50%, with Aemon that's the two-thirds needed!

[Lady Fevre Dream]

He had his little "you're too stupid to be a coward" moment with Grenn, but otherwise not really much to note about him. I really thought they'd have Pyp take the place of Dareon though, so I'm wondering if Arya is going to kill a NW member at all?

Hmmmmmmm, good point about Arya and the NW killing. It looks like they are going need LOTS of recruiting. I really am hopeful for someone doing a dead NW count for this episode. I suspect that the killing in Braavos might not happen, just like we were minus a singer in the Eyrie for Lysa's murder, them having killed Marillion in KL. Hell, surely there are more musicians in Westeros? I try to maintain an easy going attitude, but D&D do make that difficult at times.

On a related note to my previous post, I at first thought GRRM was trying too hard with Edd in the books, but I wound up loving him. I think I just surrendered on his one positive note: Edd thinking he might die before the NW could figure out how to put his body back to work, LOL

[Alia Atreides]

My favorite part of the wall scene had to be when they broke apart the ice and you see the wildings being smashed right against it and also the Giant just splatting a wilding into the ground as he ran away.

Sad to see Pyp and Green both get it as this was half of Jon's family on the wall I wonder now when he is to become Lord Commander who will stand for him now? Before he had them at his side as well as Samwell; now he has Sam but not for long he should be leaving soon enough once the Red Woman gets to the wall.

I wonder also how they are going to fit in all the rest next week with Stannis and Tywin dying and I saw some Dany's dragons as well appearing to be locked up already.

We definitely need more Ghost I say; I will be sad to see the season yet again END until next year once again.

[Chebyshov]

Hmmmmmmm, good point about Arya and the NW killing. It looks like they are going need LOTS of recruiting. I really am hopeful for someone doing a dead NW count for this episode. I suspect that the killing in Braavos might not happen, just like we were minus a singer in the Eyrie for Lysa's murder, them having killed Marillion in KL. Hell, surely there are more musicians in Westeros? I try to maintain an easy going attitude, but D&D do make that difficult at times.

On a related note to my previous post, I at first thought GRRM was trying too hard with Edd in the books, but I wound up loving him. I think I just surrendered on his one positive note: Edd thinking he might die before the NW could figure out how to put his body back to work, LOL

The lack of bards is one of my biggest gripes!

Aw, I just love Edd. And Show!Edd should be in contention for the LC election, IMO. He was quite the commander.

[Duckface]

I'm very optimistic about the future of the show. It can be worse than this, right? Please convince me

[Guard of the Rainking]

I'm very optimistic about the future of the show. It can be worse than this, right? Please convince me

D&D write less episodes in season 5, Alex Graves left and David Nutter is directing the last two episodes.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

The lack of bards is one of my biggest gripes!

Aw, I just love Edd. And Show!Edd should be in contention for the LC election, IMO. He was quite the commander.

But, but, but......I'm sure he'll be a fabulous Block Fetcher, too, LOL

I'm thinking Edd and Jon can do rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock for command. There's really no one left for a big election.

[Mark Antony]

Jon and Sam showing no real emotion at finding Grenns body kinda irked me

[Veltigar]

I'm very optimistic about the future of the show. It can be worse than this, right? Please convince me

D&D write less episodes in season 5, Alex Graves left and David Nutter is directing the last two episodes.

Nutter managed to botch the RW (that silly walk of Roose, I just can't get over it) and D&D will still write 6 episodes. And they are the ones that map out the entire season and make the final decision. In other words, don't get your hopes up for next season.

[Veltigar]

Jon and Sam showing no real emotion at finding Grenns body kinda irked me

... that was all the emotion Kit Harrington was able to show :p

[Mark Antony]

... that was all the emotion Kit Harrington was able to show :p

Lol true he does kinda struggle with those scenes but Sam didn't even react from what I remember and Grenn was one of his first friends :dunno: kinda lame how he only seems to care about Gillehhhhh

[jarl the climber]

He had his little "you're too stupid to be a coward" moment with Grenn, but otherwise not really much to note about him. I really thought they'd have Pyp take the place of Dareon though, so I'm wondering if Arya is going to kill a NW member at all?

Yeah I'm not sure if that still happens but she still probably will meet Sam. There is actually a Dareon in the TV show, Aemon sent him to Eastwatch in season 1 just like he was in the books. The Night Watch did lose the Yoren, who was their recruiter, the Nights Watch does need someone to replace him, so it seems like everything is in place if they want to do it I just do not know if they will but I think they will keep it in, it does play an important role in her training.

[Guard of the Rainking]

Nutter managed to botch the RW (that silly walk of Roose, I just can't get over it) and D&D will still write 6 episodes. And they are the ones that map out the entire season and make the final decision. In other words, don't get your hopes up for next season.

IMO The Rains of Castamere was well directed, but yeah a lot of the Mhysa stuff was botched.