Commodore Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Shryke,I strongly suspect this is one of the issues you and I will never agree on. I see inflation as something that does punish people for not getting into debt and for working hard to pay down debt quickly when it is not easy to do so. Because when inflation goes up, assuming salaries keep pace with inflation which is in no way guaranteed, it makes it easy for people to pay debt regardless of other's efforts. It just makes those of us who do pay suckers. Inflation gets used to mean different things (i.e. expanding money supply vs. rising prices). We are entering the stagflation portion of this scenario (rising prices combined with stagnant growth). Like a drug addict, we know QE is bad for us (destroying our wealth, monetizing our debt), but we can't stop because the withdrawal will be too painful. Best thing you can do is not hold your savings as dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 It just makes those of us who do pay suckers. Suckers? Nobody knows the future in economics. Paying off debt right before a period of inflation may make you an economic loser, compared with those who waited a few more years but that is not the same thing at all. There are all kind of ways that people can lose out as a result of economic trends, and what you are describing is hardly the worst of it. Capitalism is not meant to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Maith,Per Iceman, many years ago, inflation does not occur naturally it is brought on deliberately by the choice of Government. Therefore, suckers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awesome possum Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Bored now. So about that Obama. Man, I wish he'd stop abusing the power of his office with all these executive orders. All good Americans know that executive orders were never used before Obama started trying to take over the world and turn it into a Muslim Hegemony. Except anyone with common sense knows that's bullshit, and here's a handy chart showing the executive orders used by every president... ever. Guess who used the most in the common era? Good ole St. Ronnie His 181 (soon to be 183 when he signs the LGBT and the manufacturing actions) ranks him just 19th of the 44 presidents — behind all of his modern predecessors except George H.W. Bush, who only served one term. George W. Bush (291), Bill Clinton (364), Ronald Reagan (381) and even Jimmy Carter (320), who served just four years, all issued more orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 When the money supply increases, everyone's dollars are worth less, by definition. So they have less wealth, by definition.Unless they are the recipients of that increased money supply, which would be the banks. Nope. Sorry, but this is just fundamentally completely wrong. This is even more hilariously wrong because, of course, the US is currently not experiencing large inflation despite a growth in the money supply. You have no idea what you are babbling about. chartsource Your chart is not from your source. Your chart is from the cranks at zerohedge. Here's a better chart from your source:http://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/food-price-outlook/charts.aspx#fieldcrop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Maith,Per Iceman, many years ago, inflation does not occur naturally it is brought on deliberately by the choice of Government. Therefore, suckers.I think it's a little silly to say anything in economics occurs "naturally". I'm not even sure what that would mean. The government makes choices every day which can impact your economic welfare, and sometimes negatively. It is very difficult to take any economic action that will not harm someone, and it would be bad policy to avoid taking any action which will have negative consequences. We certainly don't do that about other government actions, like defense, criminal justice, environmental regulation, anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Shryke,I strongly suspect this is one of the issues you and I will never agree on. I see inflation as something that does punish people for not getting into debt and for working hard to pay down debt quickly when it is not easy to do so. Because when inflation goes up, assuming salaries keep pace with inflation which is in no way guaranteed, it makes it easy for people to pay debt regardless of other's efforts. It just makes those of us who do pay suckers. Nope. This is not something you can disagree on Scot. Inflation does not punish those that don't get into debt or those that pay down debt, it punishes those that lend. It helps those that pay down debt since it makes paying down debt easier. This isn't opinion, this is basic economics. It doesn't make you a sucker and your continued attempts to frame it as such just make it more obvious that this is about your own hurt feelings rather then any sort of understandings of what's at work here. Your attempt to make others suffer in order to make yourself feel better due you the opposite of credit. Maith,Per Iceman, many years ago, inflation does not occur naturally it is brought on deliberately by the choice of Government. Therefore, suckers. No. You need to stop being so fucking butthurt about this shit. Your persecution complex not only doesn't make sense, but makes you look like someone angry that, what, others might be helped by inflation? This shit is bonkers. A consistent level of inflation is good for the economy and good for everyone. It doesn't make anyone "suckers". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Inflation gets used to mean different things (i.e. expanding money supply vs. rising prices). We are entering the stagflation portion of this scenario (rising prices combined with stagnant growth). Like a drug addict, we know QE is bad for us (destroying our wealth, monetizing our debt), but we can't stop because the withdrawal will be too painful. Best thing you can do is not hold your savings as dollars. No Commodore, it only means one thing. It's just that you are ignorant and uninformed and so don't know the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Is a conservative actually talking about what is or isn't 'fair'? I thought you guys were supposed to be above that line of thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Shryke,A stable level of inflation is good for the economy. You are advocating increasing inflation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commodore Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Nope. Sorry, but this is just fundamentally completely wrong. This is even more hilariously wrong because, of course, the US is currently not experiencing large inflation despite a growth in the money supply. You have no idea what you are babbling about. Your chart is not from your source. Your chart is from the cranks at zerohedge. Here's a better chart from your source: http://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/food-price-outlook/charts.aspx#fieldcrop you're right I had the wrong source link, ZH just took it from BLS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Notorious Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Inflation is low right now ..... About 2% ..... But the fast uptick since spring could be worrisome. I definitely see tapering as the right policy move with unemployment number trending down.http://online.wsj.com/articles/consumer-prices-jump-0-4-in-may-1403008509 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commodore Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Shryke,A stable level of inflation is good for the economy. You are advocating increasing inflation. Why is stuff getting (steadily) more expensive good for the economy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Commodore,Because with deflation (the alternative) people don't spend (nearly as much) people save because their cash is increasing in value just by existing. As such the economy grinds to a halt because people are encouraged not to buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commodore Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Commodore,Because with deflation (the alternative) people don't spend (nearly as much) people save because their cash is increasing in value just by existing. As such the economy grinds to a halt because people are encouraged not to buy. People save more?!? The horror! I think you have it backwards, people are not encouraged to buy because the economy has ground to a halt. And prices need to come down when the economy is bad and people aren't earning as much. Instead today we have stagnant wages and rising prices. Lot's of things continually go down in price (despite inflation). Cell phones, TVs, etc. It doesn't discourage people from buying them. I like to grill ribeyes in the summer. If I know they will be 2% cheaper next year or even next month or next week, I don't delay my purchase. Sadly, now they are $10 each and I don't buy them at all anymore. People today go into massive credit card debt at 10+% interest to purchase things they could get cheaper a year from now (even with inflation), but they still do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I think it's a little silly to say anything in economics occurs "naturally". I'm not even sure what that would mean. The government makes choices every day which can impact your economic welfare, and sometimes negatively. It is very difficult to take any economic action that will not harm someone, and it would be bad policy to avoid taking any action which will have negative consequences. We certainly don't do that about other government actions, like defense, criminal justice, environmental regulation, anything. Thank you! There is NOTHING natural about economies or the market. Nothing. At. All. Gravity happens naturally. Economies are created, controlled, and regulated by human beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commodore Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Thank you! There is NOTHING natural about economies or the market. Nothing. At. All. Gravity happens naturally. Economies are created, controlled, and regulated by human beings. Do you have a minute to talk about your savior, Bitcoin? It's controlled and regulated by math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 scot-- it could be suckers. or it could be superior persons who have discharged their obligations timely and in compliance with the law. as a marxist I prefer economic arguments on causation and whatnot, but am as yet inclined to insist that we need not act like nihilistic animals, of which homo economicus is a good example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Sologdin,Fair enough. I don't want creditors to rip people off. Neither do I want debtors to get away with ripping off the creditors who loaned them money in good faith. There needs to be a balance. Tip the scales too far in either direction and things get problematic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 all for it. could you convey that principle to any adjusters that you know? they didn't get the memo yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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