*SPOILERS* The Rogue Prince, or, a King's Brother Discussion

[Barty]

The difference with Rhaenyra's bastards as opposed to say Cersei's is that they are still the children of the chosen heir to the Throne, and as I read it there was a degree of understanding and consent from Laenor on the matter. Its almost (not quite but almost) like a woman becoming impregnated by another mans sperm because her husband is infertile in the modern day. Though in this case Rhaenyra went...shall we say direct to the donor. Whereas with Cersei, she cuckolded the King, and thus the Children lacked any legitinate claim to the Throne, in addition to the element of deception involved in her case. I still believe that the fact her children were bastards was just a thin pretext the Greens used, their real reasons being:

a) To seat Aegon (or any of Alicent's brood) on the Throne

and

b ) To avoid being ruled by Daemon, which is of course understandable.

ETA: Just want to point out that I think this novelette fits the anthology much better than tPatQ fit into Dangerous Women. :)

This is westerosi society - we cant apply modern thinking in such matters. Even if Rhaenyra and Laenor agreed to an open marriage - any children of Rhaenyra by Harwin Strong are still bastards. Look at it this way - Many wives in westeros know their husbands sleep around and plenty understand and have no issue with it but the children are still bastards.

Rhaenyra's children were likewise bastards and were never legitimized - hence had no claim to the throne. The Greens are entirely justified in their rebellion.

[LordBloodraven]

Cant be Bael - there are no records of him in the south(which there would be if Jaehaerys had fought him) also Bael's son Brandon was skinned alive by some Bolton and the last Bolton rebellion was a thousand years ago. The army also supposedly had wargs - wonder if any tried to take over the dragons.

This tidbit was very intriguing. When Bran said that the Old King came to Winterfell and the Wall, he didn't specify why? just some business with his warden of the North. Also concerning Bael, the new Stark family tree removed any doubt that it was simply wildling legend: there's only one Brandon Stark between the Dance and the Rebellion, the son of Cregan and father of Beron. Bael's story doesn't fit

[LordBloodraven]

Another interesting aspect is how Aemond tamed came to ride Vhagar. It is particularly interesting that others seemed to have feared that something bad might happen to him, that being burned and eaten by the dragon was still considered a possibility. This might mean that, even for a Targaryen, trying to ride a dragon with whom you haven't bonded since its birth was a risky adventure.

It could mean also that dragons prefer boldness. Show no fear and you might enjoy the ride

[The hairy bear]

Rhaenyra's children were likewise bastards and were never legitimized - hence had no claim to the throne. The Greens are entirely justified in their rebellion.

I think that the point is that Rhaenyra was legitimate regardless. You could argue whether, after Rhaenyra, the Iron Throne should go to Jacaerys or Aegon the younger, but the point remains that Rhaenyra was legitimate and Viserys' choosen heir.

[Night's_King]

Can't wait for my HC. But not for GRRM. TPatQ was bad and I don't have great expactations for the new story...

But I'm really looking forward to Lynch, Rothfuss, Gaiman and Abercrombie!

[Maester Pedant]

It could mean also that dragons prefer boldness. Show no fear and you might enjoy the ride

Yes. But the fact remains that Targaryens are said to fear being burned and eaten by dragons. That's interesting.

[Barty]

I think that the point is that Rhaenyra was legitimate regardless. You could argue whether, after Rhaenyra, the Iron Throne should go to Jacaerys or Aegon the younger, but the point remains that Rhaenyra was legitimate and Viserys' choosen heir.

She was trying to put her children(who are bastards) on the throne after her, thereby committing high treason and losing all rights to become queen.

Also there is still a question of whether the Great Council has more power or the King. According to the King, Rhaenyra was the rightful heir but according to the laws of the Great Council of 101 Aegon was. Since the GC is the one who chooses the King I think their word should be given more importance.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Loving the fact that peace with Dorne through marriage was originally Viserys' idea.

[The hairy bear]

My first round of bullets:

• Jace, Luke and Joffrey where very nice guys, but I'm afraid everything indicates that they were bastards. It's not only the looks, or their father's sexual tastes, but all the cicumstances of their births point that way.
  
• I'm very curious about Mushroms fate. Whenever "there were different options", his side usally was the most interesting. But while we should praise his creativity (or good sources), I don't think he could survive the Dance. Was he killed by the greens for saying that Daemon had deflowered Alicent, or by the blacks for saying that Rhaeyra's sons are strongs?
  
• More facts support Grand Maester Gerardys being the blacks secret friend in the green council. He had been Rhaenyra's personal maester.
  
• So Harwin and Larys were brothers. I'm very interested on Larys' motivations to join the green side. If the black side prevailed, he could be installing his nephews on the Iron Throne. But perhaps that's it: they could never show any favor to him, or someone would consider it a confirmation of their bastardy. He seemed cold and calculating like that.
  
• Still no hint of any Grand Maester Orwyle to fed Sunfyre: we have GM Runciter until 122, GM Mellos between 122 and 128, and GM Gerardys until then. It seems the only possibility was that Orwyle was Rhaenyra's maester at Dragonstone.
  
• So Joffrey is a name from the Stormlands, presumably chosen by Robert for his firstborn, and not because of the Targaryen prince. I retract from my previous comments in tPatQ's thread arguing that the name made no sense. It's prefectly justified!
  
• One question: in tPatQ, Lord Beesbury is described as "The ancient master of coin, who had served King Viserys for his entire reign, and his father Jaehaerys the Old King before him". How having served King Viserys for his entire reign compatible with Daemo being master of coin from 103-104?
  
• Balerion couldn't be much more than a hatchling at the Doom. He died year 96 when he was 200 years old, so he could only be 4 or so when fleeing from Valyria.
  
• Very interested about Maegor's the Cruel "Black Bride", named Rhaena (the rider of Dreamfyre). Very intrigued. He was a sister of the Old King, and was married to Maegor. I'm afraid we can't say much more, but I'm very excited about her!
  

[The hairy bear]

She was trying to put her children(who are bastards) on the throne after her, thereby committing high treason and losing all rights to become queen.

Well, we know bastards can be legitimized by kings/queens.

[kronosrx8]

Interesting that Viserys started feeling a little bit better after Mellos was gone and Gerardys took his place. Maybe something fishy going on there?

[LordBloodraven]

Well, we know bastards can be legitimized by kings/queens.

Anyway, given how Daemon is described in this novella, I wouldn't be surprised if he killed the Strong boys, and paved the way for his children with Rhaenyra

[Maia]

It is particularly interesting that others seemed to have feared that something bad might happen to him, that being burned and eaten by the dragon was still considered a possibility. This might mean that, even for a Targaryen, trying to ride a dragon with whom you haven't bonded since its birth was a risky adventure.

OTOH, Viserys I (!) was able to become the rider of Balerion and Laena rode Vhagar, so it isn't as if dragons chose the most warlike, phyically strong or ruthless people, as has been suggested after TPaTQ. We also still didn't hear about any Targaryen actually dying in an attempt to ride a dragon.

Also, looking at Dany's dragons, it seems rather odd that a 3-year-old (!) was allowed to look after his dragon and generally stick around the dragon stables, and a 7-year-old rode hers, without it being considered overly dangerous. Yes, children have hatched their dragons from eggs, but so did Dany, and yet Drogon almost killed her.

Also, isn't it interesting that while being bonded to Laena, Vhagar obeyed Daemon enough to fly with him and Caraxes across the Narrow Sea? A far cry from Aegon not being able to go near her...

Kind of disappointed that Rhaenys and Laena didn't do much with their dragons or themselves during the War of Ninepenny Kings. Why weren't they helping Corlys?

Speaking of whom, it has been mentioned that Laenor had Targaryen blood on both sides of his family, so Corlys had it too. And him being the father of Alyn and Addam explains a lot, even though it makes me even more sad for Westerosi wives.

So, what happened to all the hatchlings that were around when Aemond was 10? Where did they come from and what happened to them? Did Cannibal eat them all, or what?

What does "Maegor's black bride" mean? Did Princess Rhaena have black hair and otherwise didn't look like a Targaryen, despite having equally Valyrian-looking Velaryons for mother and grandmother? That would offer a loophole for Rhaenyra's elder sons.

Finally, I don't have more sympathy for the Greens after reading this piece, because I find it meaningful that despite them having all the advantages for the 10 years that Rhaenyra was in virtual exile, and a lot of people who swore to her as a heir dying in the interim, half the realm still supported her. And if not for Boros Baratheon's sudden and self-interested about-face, it would have been more than a half. The Greens must have been doing something very wrong to land in such a situation, IMHO.

Oh, and Otto Hightower clearly wasn't as competent as he seemed, because he was largely responsible for the inheritance debacle in the first place. And it should have been obvious to him that naming somebody Princess of Dragonstone and having people swear to her as a heir, would make snatching it back more difficult and create problems with the succession. Viserys I was only around 30 and healthy, he was going to marry Alicent, could Otto not have waited?

Not sure why Viserys was against marrying Rhaenyra to Aegon either. Did he think that it would somehow allow the Greens to push her aside? Particularly since she was previously involved in a sex scandal with Daemon?

[Maester Pedant]

My first round of bullets:

• Jace, Luke and Joffrey where very nice guys, but I'm afraid everything indicates that they were bastards. It's not only the looks, or their father's sexual tastes, but all the cicumstances of their births point that way.

I'm very curious about Mushroms fate. Whenever "there were different options", his side usally was the most interesting. But while we should praise his creativity (or good sources), I don't think he could survive the Dance. Was he killed by the greens for saying that Daemon had deflowered Alicent, or by the blacks for saying that Rhaeyra's sons are strongs?

More facts support Grand Maester Gerardys being the blacks secret friend in the green council. He had been Rhaenyra's personal maester.

So Harwin and Larys were brothers. I'm very interested on Larys' motivations to join the green side. If the black side prevailed, he could be installing his nephews on the Iron Throne. But perhaps that's it: they could never show any favor to him, or someone would consider it a confirmation of their bastardy. He seemed cold and calculating like that.

Still no hint of any Grand Maester Orwyle to fed Sunfyre: we have GM Runciter until 122, GM Mellos between 122 and 128, and GM Gerardys until then. It seems the only possibility was that Orwyle was Rhaenyra's maester at Dragonstone.

So Joffrey is a name from the Stormlands, presumably chosen by Robert for his firstborn, and not because of the Targaryen prince. I retract from my previous comments in tPatQ's thread arguing that the name made no sense. It's prefectly justified!

One question: in tPatQ, Lord Beesbury is described as "The ancient master of coin, who had served King Viserys for his entire reign, and his father Jaehaerys the Old King before him". How having served King Viserys for his entire reign compatible with Daemo being master of coin from 103-104?

Balerion couldn't be much more than a hatchling at the Doom. He died year 96 when he was 200 years old, so he could only be 4 or so when fleeing from Valyria.

Very interested about Maegor's the Cruel "Black Bride", named Rhaena (the rider of Dreamfyre). Very intrigued. He was a sister of the Old King, and was married to Maegor. I'm afraid we can't say much more, but I'm very excited about her!

I think he survived all of them, and wrote his memoirs years after the Dance. Otherwise, I don't see how Archmaester Gyldayn would have had access to Mushroom as a source.

[Maester Pedant]

OTOH, Viserys I (!) was able to become the rider of Balerion and Laena rode Vhagar, so it isn't as if dragons chose the most warlike, phyically strong or ruthless people, as has been suggested after TPaTQ. We also still didn't hear about any Targaryen actually dying in an attempt to ride a dragon.

Also, looking at Dany's dragons, it seems rather odd that a 3-year-old (!) was allowed to look after his dragon and generally stick around the dragon stables, and a 7-year-old rode hers, without it being considered overly dangerous. Yes, children have hatched their dragons from eggs, but so did Dany, and yet Drogon almost killed her.

Also, isn't it interesting that while being bonded to Laena, Vhagar obeyed Daemon enough to fly with him and Caraxes across the Narrow Sea? A far cry from Aegon not being able to go near her...

Kind of disappointed that Rhaenys and Laena didn't do much with their dragons or themselves during the War of Ninepenny Kings. Why weren't they helping Corlys?

Speaking of whom, it has been mentioned that Laenor had Targaryen blood on both sides of his family, so Corlys had it too. And him being the father of Alyn and Addam explains a lot, even though it makes me even more sad for Westerosi wives.

So, what happened to all the hatchlings that were around when Aemond was 10? Where did they come from and what happened to them? Did Cannibal eat them all, or what?

What does "Maegor's black bride" mean? Did Princess Rhaena have black hair and otherwise didn't look like a Targaryen, despite having equally Valyrian-looking Velaryons for mother and grandmother? That would offer a loophole for Rhaenyra's elder sons.

Finally, I don't have more sympathy for the Greens after reading this piece, because I find it meaningful that despite them having all the advantages for the 10 years that Rhaenyra was in virtual exile, and a lot of people who swore to her as a heir dying in the interim, half the realm still supported her. And if not for Boros Baratheon's sudden and self-interested about-face, it would have been more than a half. The Greens must have been doing something very wrong to land in such a situation, IMHO.

Oh, and Otto Hightower clearly wasn't as competent as he seemed, because he was largely responsible for the inheritance debacle in the first place. And it should have been obvious to him that naming somebody Princess of Dragonstone and having people swear to her as a heir, would make snatching it back more difficult and create problems with the succession. Viserys I was only around 30 and healthy, he was going to marry Alicent, could Otto not have waited?

Not sure why Viserys was against marrying Rhaenyra to Aegon either. Did he think that it would somehow allow the Greens to push her aside? Particularly since she was previously involved in a sex scandal with Daemon?

Absolutely. Otto Hightower seems like the kind of guy that can only consider matters in the short term. For him, making Rhaenyra the acknowledged heir was, at the time, just a way of keeping Daemon away from the Iron Throne. Or perhaps having his daughter marry the King was something that had never actually occurred to him. In fairness, most Targaryen kings until this point had married either a Targaryen woman, or a woman with Targaryen blood (Aemma Arryn).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

<p>

[*]One question: in tPatQ, Lord Beesbury is described as "The ancient master of coin, who had served King Viserys for his entire reign, and his father Jaehaerys the Old King before him". How having served King Viserys for his entire reign compatible with Daemo being master of coin from 103-104?

[*]Balerion couldn't be much more than a hatchling at the Doom. He died year 96 when he was 200 years old, so he could only be 4 or so when fleeing from Valyria.

[*]Very interested about Maegor's the Cruel "Black Bride", named Rhaena (the rider of Dreamfyre). Very intrigued. He was a sister of the Old King, and was married to Maegor. I'm afraid we can't say much more, but I'm very excited about her!

It is only specified that Beesbury served Viserys' enhire reign, there's,nothing suggesting the position.

Was Balerion specifically 200 years old, or roughly? Be ause if he died in 96AC at the age of 200 exactly, he would have been born in 104BC, before the flight from Valyria.

I'm guessing that Rhaena either had been married before, or that she was still mourning her father, placing her marriage to Maegor closely to Aenys' death

[LordStoneheart]

It seems Great Councils for bastards don't occur to anyone. If the Greens had a problem with the first three children of Rhaenyra, why not call one? She was the indisputable heir, not Jacaerys, Lucerys, or Joffrey. Even if this archmaester is telling the truth and they are bastards, it still gives them no right to steal the throne and cause a bloody war.

I don't have the book, but happy to just hear about it for now... I enjoyed P&Q enough but so much money for short stories.....

[The hairy bear]

Yeah, I would have been fine with the Green side if they had summoned a Great Council after Viserys' deaths to debate on whether the tradition of placing males ahead of females in the succession should prevail over the death king's will and the lord's oath. But what they did was nothing more than a coup.

Although, in all honesty, my sympathies for the blacks have diminished a little bit after reading TRP.

It is only specified that Beesbury served Viserys' enhire reign, there's,nothing suggesting the position.

Makes sense.

Was Balerion specifically 200 years old, or roughly? Because if he died in 96AC at the age of 200 exactly, he would have been born in 104BC, before the flight from Valyria.

The quote is ""Balerion the Black Dread was two hundred years old when he died during the reign of Jaehaerys the Conciliator." Two hundred years could be an aproximation, but I don't think it's far from that.

Balerion died year 94 (I misstyped), son he was born 106 BC. Still, Dany's dragons have grown up a lot in a couple of years, so it's perfectly reasonable for Drogon to be a grown dragon when fleeing to Dragonstone.

I'm guessing that Rhaena either had been married before, or that she was still mourning her father, placing her marriage to Maegor closely to Aenys' death

Black for mourning is a reasonable possibility. My first thought was that the "black bride" may have something to do with being involved in Maegor's death. He was killed in (by) the Iron Throne, so the murderer had to be someone close to him. And Maegor was usurping her brother's throne.

I think he survived all of them, and wrote his memoirs years after the Dance. Otherwise, I don't see how Archmaester Gyldayn would have had access to Mushroom as a source.

I can only imagine Mushroom surviving if he fled from court immediately after Viserys' death. I don't think his kund of humor would be much appreciated in war time.

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenyra and her children:

Well, I really like that whole thing. This really stresses the fact that infidelity in a marriage cannot be conclusively proven in Westeros, or can it? A wife's children are always the children of the father - in Germany that's still the case, by the way - unless the husband has reasons to doubt the being the father, but this is not the case in Rhaenyra/Laenor's 'open marriage'. The Greens can think what they will, but they can't accuse Rhaenyra of adultery unless her husband and lover accuse her, too.

In that sense, Jace, Luke, and Joff don't need to be legitimized despite their 'suspicious features' because they have been born to a married mother. We see how this goes when Jon Arryn/Stannis and later Cersei tries to play the adultery card. You have either to convince the king to believe the whole thing (Robert in the case of Cersei and Jaime), or you have to have people accusing the woman in question (Margaery's supposed lovers). In Rhaenyra's case neither Laenor nor Ser Harwin would ever have done that. Admitting anything would have shamed all three parties involved. Rhaenyra would have been 'a wanton woman', Laenor a cuckold, and Ser Harwin essentially a male whore. Neither of them would have wanted any of that.

And it's evident that Viserys didn't care about that whole thing. He wanted his daughter to succeed him, period. And if he had believe them to be bastards, he (as king) or Rhaenyra (as Queen Regnant later on) could have legitimized her bastards easily enough.

I feel there are hints in this whole thing that both Rhaenyra and Viserys are somewhat alike in love matters. There are two points in the story where Viserys seems to indicate that Alicent is two essentially a paramour of sorts - when he dismisses Alicent's suggestion to marry Rhaenyra to Aegon the Elder ('Alicent wants her blood on the Iron Throne' - it was his blood, too!), and when he makes fun of Prince Aemond's lack of boldness to claim a dragon of his own.

Rhaenyra, on the other hand, was clearly into very manly men, not the type of effeminate homosexual Laenor obviously was. She is drawn to three men - her dangerous uncle, the finest knight of his generation, and the strongest man of Westeros. That says something about her tastes, and completely explains why she did not along with this stupid 'Laenor idea'. And there is also a good chance that Laenor Velaryon was also refusing to enter into an intimate relationship with her (the man does not seem to care about the whole fish quote...).

Does anyone have a preference on the Criston Cole story?

I would take a middle ground there:

Daemon did deflower Rhaenyra to try to force Viserys to set his marriage aside and let him marry Rhaenyra. Mushroom's tale about Daemon give Rhaenyra love lessons to seduce Ser Criston does sound way too much like Choderlos de Laclos to me. And I also don't believe that Ser Criston was a chaste knight and all that - he must have been in love with Rhaenyra, too. His actions during the tourney celebrating Rhaenyra's marriage to Laenor pretty much confirm this. Why the hell would he take out Joffrey Lonmouth and attack Ser Harwin if he was appalled by Rhaenyra's 'wanton behavior?

We learn that Ser Criston has a very humble background - son of the steward of Blackhaven (worse than Littlefinger) - and we also know that Rhaenyra loves power and wants to succeed her father on the Iron Throne (that's why she relented and married Laenor). Thus my guess is that Ser Criston did indeed ask Rhaenyra to run away with him to live a simple life together in exile, with him working as a sellsword and providing for her and their children. Rhaenyra, being the blood of the dragon, was not really interested in that kind of thing, and probably offered/asked him to become her official favorite/paramour (the position Ser Harwin shortly after held) and the father of her children. Ser Criston could not stomach that, perhaps because he really wanted to marry her.

Balerion must have been at least 208 years old upon his death in 94 AC, since his egg hatched in Valyria, and Aenar and his family apparently left the Freehold around 112 BC (twelve years before the doom). I could see Balerion being 210-212 years old, since that would him make old enough to be ridden by Daenys the Dreamer when they left Valyria. That would mirror Dany and Drogon really nicely...

[Maester Pedant]

Yeah, I would have been fine with the Green side if they had summoned a Great Council after Viserys' deaths to debate on whether the tradition of placing males ahead of females in the succession should prevail over the death king's will and the lord's oath. But what they did was nothing more than a coup.

Although, in all honesty, my sympathies for the blacks have diminished a little bit after reading TRP.

Makes sense.

The quote is ""Balerion the Black Dread was two hundred years old when he died during the reign of Jaehaerys the Conciliator." Two hundred years could be an aproximation, but I don't think it's far from that.

Balerion died year 94 (I misstyped), son he was born 106 BC. Still, Dany's dragons have grown up a lot in a couple of years, so it's perfectly reasonable for Drogon to be a grown dragon when fleeing to Dragonstone.

Black for mourning is a reasonable possibility. My first thought was that the "black bride" may have something to do with being involved in Maegor's death. He was killed in (by) the Iron Throne, so the murderer had to be someone close to him. And Maegor was usurping her brother's throne.

I can only imagine Mushroom surviving if he fled from court immediately after Viserys' death. I don't think his kund of humor would be much appreciated in war time.

That's possible. But fools get away with saying a lot. In any case, most of the salacious details were about Rhaenyra. So in the green court, those jokes would be very appreciated. The fact that he isn't mentioned in The Princess and the Queen suggests that he wasn't in court during the war. So it's quite possible that he fled, or was sent somewhere else.