A Feast for the Dead, a Snow in the Tombs, a Dream in Dust

[Doublestar]

Just occurred to me:

You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. “Father?” he called. “Bran? Rickon?” No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. “Uncle?” he called. “Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me.”

No one of these persons answered. Because it was a place for dead Starks. And people Jon called are either not dead (Bran, Rickon, Benjen) or not Starks (his real father, who is most probably Rhaegar Targaryen), so they were not there to answer.

[Kyoshi]

Just occurred to me:

No one of these persons answered. Because it was a place for dead Starks. And people Jon called are either not dead (Bran, Rickon, Benjen) or not Starks (his real father, who is most probably Rhaegar Targaryen), so they were not there to answer.

Good one! It's not just a feast for the dead, but a feast for dead Starks. As others have already noted, his father is actually in Jaime's part of the dream...and Jaime is calling out for Ned, who is in Theon's part of the dream. That would explain why Ygritte also doesn't answer.

[Ser Quork]

Just occurred to me:

No one of these persons answered. Because it was a place for dead Starks. And people Jon called are either not dead (Bran, Rickon, Benjen) or not Starks (his real father, who is most probably Rhaegar Targaryen), so they were not there to answer.

Nice catch. (Feeds my Benjen's-not-dead-but-north-of-the-wall state of mind.) :)

[Ellfoy]

I like your interpretation! I like it a lot!

I'm also skeptical that everyone who helped Jon did so with the knowledge that he had a possible "hero" future awaiting him. I think it just so happened that each of those people happened to find something in Jon they thought to be extraordinary, or with which they could empathise and sympathise. I know people think Jon is most people's favourite character because he is the typical hero but I disagree with that. I think most fans, and perhaps most book characters, like him because he is the most relatable. People think he is a trope, a Gary Stu who is given plot gifts and convenient mentors, but I disagree with that very strongly. Given the way he is written, it does not shock me that he inspired all these mentors to hone him. Even without their knowledge of his supposed destiny.

Thanks for pointing out that Viserion was locked up for most of the book. I overlooked it in my analysis. I agree that BR is not all-powerful; however, I still think that maybe he has tried or is at least trying to get eyes in all the major camps [that's assuming he even knows of Dany]. But I get your point. And I admit that the connection is a stretchy one.

Yes, the dream came from AGOT. It was before the eggs hatched.

I really like the connection you made with Jon's stabbing! The only thing I saw was the parallel with the crypt dream. The more you guys make more contributions, the more I realise just how connected everything is. I would also add that Dany is also strongly associated with wings, especially in her dreams. So is Bran by the way. Again, I really like the connection you made!

I've honestly never thought along those lines. I wanted to link the feast to religious text but I was strongly discouraged to do so. But having been raised Christian, the feast seems to evoke strong Christian themes IMHO. Especially the part with the lamb's leg. But I was never devout so my knowledge on the subject is extremely limited and in the end it could all just be coincidence, anyway. Other things that inspired the Christian thoughts were Jon's last chapter in Dance and this thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/103266-r-l-lightbringer-updated-with-part-ii/

Thanks! I think Theon has black eyes; I could be very wrong though. Hmm, I don't know what to make of the golden haired kings with jade eyes. I always assumed all the kings to be Targaryens :dunno: But now that you mention it, golden hair is more closely associated with Lannisters. But I have no idea what this means.

I very much agree with the blue part. ;)

As for the bolded, well I have a tendency to see connections to Jon more easily (I wonder why...). And yes, indeed, there is a lot of connections between Dany, Bran and Jon especially on the magic stuff which seems logical when you consider that Bran represent the "ice magic" (if you believe in the Starks/Others connection), Dany the "fire magic" and Jon a mix (balance) between the two elements. The three of them represents the biggest magic part so it's normal to see connections in prophetic dreams and the such. But what fascinates me even more in this thread is that we can see the connections with Theon and Jaime, who doesn't seem to be on the magical stuff at first sight.

And another thing in the Dany dream that need to be remembered is that we assist to a "waking the dragon from stone" moment when Dany is the dragon being woken ! I'm on the side that thinks that the eggs hatching are not the "wakings dragons from stone" of the prophecy but rather that the "dragons" are Targaryens. IMO, "waking a dragon from stone" is a Targaryen embracing his/her heritage: Dany has already done it in AGOTand Jon is going to do it after the stabbing it's seems, after all it's waking dragonS from stone. I think that this could explain why Dany and Jon both fits the prophecy.

[Kyoshi]

I very much agree with the blue part. ;)

As for the bolded, well I have a tendency to see connections to Jon more easily (I wonder why...). And yes, indeed, there is a lot of connections between Dany, Bran and Jon especially on the magic stuff which seems logical when you consider that Bran represent the "ice magic" (if you believe in the Starks/Others connection), Dany the "fire magic" and Jon a mix (balance) between the two elements. The three of them represents the biggest magic part so it's normal to see connections in prophetic dreams and the such. But what fascinates me even more in this thread is that we can see the connections with Theon and Jaime, who doesn't seem to be on the magical stuff at first sight.

And another thing in the Dany dream that need to be remembered is that we assist to a "waking the dragon from stone" moment when Dany is the dragon being woken ! I'm on the side that thinks that the eggs hatching are not the "wakings dragons from stone" of the prophecy but rather that the "dragons" are Targaryens. IMO, "waking a dragon from stone" is a Targaryen embracing his/her heritage: Dany has already done it in AGOTand Jon is going to do it after the stabbing it's seems, after all it's waking dragonS from stone. I think that this could explain why Dany and Jon both fits the prophecy.

I also find it both odd and fascinating that Theon and Jaime have such subtle connections here. Even more fascinating to me is the possibility that Jon might have to "wake his dragon" beneath the crypts of Winterfell--a Stark place [please note that I am not theorising there is an ice/stone dragon hidden beneath Winterfell :P ].

If Jon and Dany are the dragons that need awakening in order to fulfill some prophecy, I wonder if some kind of metaphoric death is required [ and maybe for all our supposed "heroes"]. Let me elaborate: in order to embrace her dragon, Dany stepped in the pyre and brought dragons back into the world. I think it's safe to say Dany "hatched"--she died and was reborn a dragon (like you suggest). The "magical" person most associated with fire died by fire. Then we have Jon, who was stabbed in the North and only felt the cold. I think in a sense we can say the "magical" person who at this point, is mostly associated with ice, died by ice, a metaphoric death of course. Then we have Bran, who had his own coma in the first book after a fall that should have killed him. And Bran loved to climb but now he can't even ride a horse, forget becoming a knight.

Now Theon, who died as Theon and was reborn as Reek then reborn as Theon again. Lastly, Jaime, who at this point I can only say died as a Lannister and was reborn as a man with honour :dunno: I realise I am stretching it at this point but these death connections seem significant somehow. And please allow me to elaborate further:

From the time we meet him in AGOT, Theon has a big ego. He is the only remaining son of a high lord (a man also fond of declaring himself king of the Iron Islands), a prince of sorts, and he is as arrogant as anyone can be. His name and status are everything to him because they define everything about him. Theon Greyjoy is all that Theon has. But Theon Greyjoy dies and Reek is born. With Jaime it goes beyond the name, it extends to his prowess as a warrior. His hand is everything to him and he loses it--he dies in a sense.

The point I am trying to make is that it seems to me that each of these people has lost a valuable thing, something they treasure above all else:

• Dany - husband and child.

Bran - physical ability.

Theon - his identity.

Jaime - his hand.

Jon - I honestly can't say what he lost. Perhaps his mother and sense of belonging?

So I wonder if it is a pre-requisite to have "died" in order to belong at the feast for the dead, the feast of "heroes." You know, like a tragic beginnings sort of deal. I can be crackpot inclined. I know I've crossed many lines with this one post. :P

Also, does anyone know how to pin a thread? I want to pin this one.

[GHOSTSTARK]

For Jon it is simple. He is never able to complete that dream because he always wakes up from terror. I think he will be in a coma after the stabbing so he will not be able to wake up. That means he will complete the dream. In the crypts, I think he will meet Lyanna and talk with Ned about his parentage.

i like that thought. would be cool to see him finally finish the dream that keeps haunting him.

[Ice Queen]

For Jon it is simple. He is never able to complete that dream because he always wakes up from terror. I think he will be in a coma after the stabbing so he will not be able to wake up. That means he will complete the dream. In the crypts, I think he will meet Lyanna and talk with Ned about his parentage.

There is another dream of Jon which is often missed.

At that time, Winterfell was being sacked. I think this dream refers to that event and it means that the old Stark ghosts are awakening from their rest.

About Theon's dream;

I think he has a redemption arc to pay for his sins and after he completes that, his soul will be allowed to enter the Great Hall of the dead Starks. He will reject his Greyjoy heritage and fully embrace Ned as his true father.

This.Theon has come to be a Stark--he wants desperately to be one of them and, like Jon, isn't. And yet, when he comes back to Winterfell as Reek he's the closest thing to the Stark in Winterfell there is. He gives Fake Arya away at her wedding even though he isn't related to her. He seeks the solitude of the godswood as a Stark would. He can hear Bran through the weirwood. The hooded man calls him "kinslayer" for the murders of Bran and Rickon.

Ned raised him, cared for him, and taught him what it is to be a Stark, not a Greyjoy. He tries to be a Greyjoy but Balon isn't having it--he's become too Starkified.

[Winter'sFallen]

Quote

It would have been more poetic if this was Arya's thoughts after escaping Roose Bolton, but actually this part is before Amory Lorch's men attacks Yoren. Still, foreshadowing the fate of Theon?

So is this from before Tyrion gets away from the Eyrie? Bear with me please...

I like your interpretation! I like it a lot!

I'm also skeptical that everyone who helped Jon did so with the knowledge that he had a possible "hero" future awaiting him. I think it just so happened that each of those people happened to find something in Jon they thought to be extraordinary, or with which they could empathise and sympathise. I know people think Jon is most people's favourite character because he is the typical hero but I disagree with that. I think most fans, and perhaps most book characters, like him because he is the most relatable. People think he is a trope, a Gary Stu who is given plot gifts and convenient mentors, but I disagree with that very strongly. Given the way he is written, it does not shock me that he inspired all these mentors to hone him. Even without their knowledge of his supposed destiny. I like the way you put this, & will add Tyrion again, explaination coming...

Thanks for pointing out that Viserion was locked up for most of the book. I overlooked it in my analysis. I agree that BR is not all-powerful; however, I still think that maybe he has tried or is at least trying to get eyes in all the major camps [that's assuming he even knows of Dany]. But I get your point. And I admit that the connection is a stretchy one...Maybe not as sketchy as you think if I get to where I think I can with the work on this thread...

I really like the connection you made with Jon's stabbing! The only thing I saw was the parallel with the crypt dream. The more you guys make more contributions, the more I realise just how connected everything is. I would also add that Dany is also strongly associated with wings, especially in her dreams. So is Bran by the way. Again, I really like the connection you made!...OK, here it goes...we have lots of wing references, but what about the shadows on various walls? See next note...

Thanks! I think Theon has black eyes; I could be very wrong though. Hmm, I don't know what to make of the golden haired kings with jade eyes. I always assumed all the kings to be Targaryens :dunno: But now that you mention it, golden hair is more closely associated with Lannisters. But I have no idea what this means....Here is where I will go off the rails of this thread so far. Tyrion has one black & one green eye, mix of blond & black hair, has undergone the almost dead thing, turned his back on everything he knew, made him powerful (although he still throws the Lannister name around despite making himself the outcast). Tyrion has been captive in the Eyrie & escaped to the Clans, got back to his family & was almost killed for it in the Battle of the Blackwater, received no credit for his actions that arguably saved the sacking of KL. Then, after Joff dies is imprisoned again & really cuts ties with his family, to the point he's all but signing away Casterly Rock to swellswords. He has been described as a giant throughout the series, Jon notes that in Tyrion's shadow on the walls of WF, & he is still married to Sansa...hmmm? Jon's shadow is on the wall, Dany's is on the ground from the air above. Maybe nothing to this imagery, esp. in regards to the work on this thread, BUT if there is something to the Viserion/Ghost/Jon connection Kyoshi noted, then one could argue a case for Rhageal & Tyrion linking up...both spent significant time as prisoners for things not of their own actions, both seem to be overshadowed by more impressive siblings, & if you believe certain conspiracy theories, Tyrion could even have part of the correct lineage to associate with dragons. & there's the whole fascination with dragon thing that has been built up over the series; admittedly a likely red herring, but maybe worth considering Dany has no idea how to train a dragon, but I bet Tyrion might.

Just occurred to me:

No one of these persons answered. Because it was a place for dead Starks. And people Jon called are either not dead (Bran, Rickon, Benjen) or not Starks (his real father, who is most probably Rhaegar Targaryen), so they were not there to answer.

Good one! It's not just a feast for the dead, but a feast for dead Starks. As others have already noted, his father is actually in Jaime's part of the dream...and Jaime is calling out for Ned, who is in Theon's part of the dream. That would explain why Ygritte also doesn't answer.

Nice catch. (Feeds my Benjen's-not-dead-but-north-of-the-wall state of mind.) :)

Agree with all of these thoughts...

I also find it both odd and fascinating that Theon and Jaime have such subtle connections here. Even more fascinating to me is the possibility that Jon might have to "wake his dragon" beneath the crypts of Winterfell--a Stark place [please note that I am not theorising there is an ice/stone dragon hidden beneath Winterfell :P ].

If Jon and Dany are the dragons that need awakening in order to fulfill some prophecy, I wonder if some kind of metaphoric death is required [ and maybe for all our supposed "heroes"]. Let me elaborate: in order to embrace her dragon, Dany stepped in the pyre and brought dragons back into the world. I think it's safe to say Dany "hatched"--she died and was reborn a dragon (like you suggest). The "magical" person most associated with fire died by fire. Then we have Jon, who was stabbed in the North and only felt the cold. I think in a sense we can say the "magical" person who at this point, is mostly associated with ice, died by ice, a metaphoric death of course. Then we have Bran, who had his own coma in the first book after a fall that should have killed him. And Bran loved to climb but now he can't even ride a horse, forget becoming a knight.

Now Theon, who died as Theon and was reborn as Reek then reborn as Theon again. Lastly, Jaime, who at this point I can only say died as a Lannister and was reborn as a man with honour :dunno: I realise I am stretching it at this point but these death connections seem significant somehow. And please allow me to elaborate further:

From the time we meet him in AGOT, Theon has a big ego. He is the only remaining son of a high lord (a man also fond of declaring himself king of the Iron Islands), a prince of sorts, and he is as arrogant as anyone can be. His name and status are everything to him because they define everything about him. Theon Greyjoy is all that Theon has. But Theon Greyjoy dies and Reek is born. With Jaime it goes beyond the name, it extends to his prowess as a warrior. His hand is everything to him and he loses it--he dies in a sense.

The point I am trying to make is that it seems to me that each of these people has lost a valuable thing, something they treasure above all else:

• Dany - husband and child.

Bran - physical ability.

Theon - his identity.

Jaime - his hand.

Jon - I honestly can't say what he lost. Perhaps his mother and sense of belonging?

So I wonder if it is a pre-requisite to have "died" in order to belong at the feast for the dead, the feast of "heroes." You know, like a tragic beginnings sort of deal. I can be crackpot inclined. I know I've crossed many lines with this one post. :P

Also, does anyone know how to pin a thread? I want to pin this one.

I know brining Tyrion in at this point of thread is probably not the best fit, but it's been said that he sleeps very little. I wonder if there is somewhere that states it is to avoid dreams? He clearly is very clever & fits much of the criteria Kyoshi lays out above, & it could be argued that by the end of DwD he has lost as much or more than anyone else in the series from a power standpoint. He has almost died, more than once, at the hands or at least will of someone he loved in a sibling fashion, if not exactly trusted. & now he seems poised to offer his services to Dany. (I know she's been warned to beware of the Lion among others).

In many ways I look at Tyrion as a similar arc to Theon, except where Theon got this way by trying to be what he was not, 1st a Stark, then true IB, now shell of a man, Tyrion always seemed to be a schemer, but true to himself. That also sets him apart from 2handed Jaime. Which in it's own weird way binds him closer to Jon & Dany in terms of character, but because he is so off the radar, BR may never have a chance to weirnet dreams to solidify the connection. Sorry Kyoshi, I may have out crackpotted you with this ;)

I totally agree that Jamie is being pulled into the fight with the Others through his relationship with Brienne, the scope of dreams, & his own awakening & attention to detail of Westeros outside of the GoT in KL. I think Theon is part of this dreamnet to prove he's the outsider & ultimately the most expendable to the continuing story. Jon is poised to awaken as something bigger than he imagines (if he survives). Dany may be united with pieces of her puzzle that finally give her direction beyond Slaver's Bay, & it seems Tyrion could be a big part of that...esp if he connects with Rheagal. I can't link to whoever discussed the old king cheering Dany on as being representative of multiple great houses before Aegon 1st united Westeros, but I seems we have members representing each group in thee thread, apparently being pushed together.

i like that thought. would be cool to see him finally finish the dream that keeps haunting him.... :cool4:

[Winter'sFallen]

This.Theon has come to be a Stark--he wants desperately to be one of them and, like Jon, isn't. And yet, when he comes back to Winterfell as Reek he's the closest thing to the Stark in Winterfell there is. He gives Fake Arya away at her wedding even though he isn't related to her. He seeks the solitude of the godswood as a Stark would. He can hear Bran through the weirwood. The hooded man calls him "kinslayer" for the murders of Bran and Rickon.

Ned raised him, cared for him, and taught him what it is to be a Stark, not a Greyjoy. He tries to be a Greyjoy but Balon isn't having it--he's become too Starkified.

This was posted while I was finishing the other one, & it says what I wanted to say about Theon better than I did. He has been a pretender for various reasons, but has admitted as Reek that he wanted to be a Stark. I think you're right about the redemption arc, but unfortunately it may already be over for Theon depending on the outcome of Stannis vs the Boltons.

[alienarea]

What a fantastic thread.

I discovered it late and had to read it at once so my replies are part silly, part sarcastic, part ...

When I read the OP about connected dreams I had to think of Battlestar Galactica ... all along the watchtower ...

What connection does Daenerys have to wolves? She doesn't know the direwolves and calls ghe Starks ursurper's dogs. But we have MMD's ceremony of the Great Wolf and the Man in Flames, aka R'Hollor vs. the Great Other. Both are apparently needed to birth the dragons. Daenerys joining the feast of the wolf king in mute appeal suggests that Starks and Targaryens have more in common than they assume. And Daenerys dies in the end as she joins the feast of the dead. That was possibly forshadowed in the tv version of the HotU when she met Drogo and Rhaego.

And yes, the Starks are evil.

IMHO Theon can't die before he kills Ramsay with a grey goose arrow in the back. So maybe Bran wants to sacrifice Theon to save Jon but messes it up so Jon dies saving Theon?

Also, Jaime started Bran's arc by pushing him so Bran needs to end Jaime's arc.

[Ice Queen]

This was posted while I was finishing the other one, & it says what I wanted to say about Theon better than I did. He has been a pretender for various reasons, but has admitted as Reek that he wanted to be a Stark. I think you're right about the redemption arc, but unfortunately it may already be over for Theon depending on the outcome of Stannis vs the Boltons.

I hope not. He and Jaime are the most redeemable characters in the series. Theon didn't do what he did at Winterfell because he's an evil person: he did it to please his father and because he wanted his father to be proud of him and to earn his place as heir to Pyke. That doesn't excuse him, but it does make him more...I guess "pitiable" is a good word.

I keep thinking that Rodrik the Reader told us the story of the king who came late to the kingsmoot for a reason. It might not be too late for Theon.

[Winter'sFallen]

What a fantastic thread.

I discovered it late and had to read it at once so my replies are part silly, part sarcastic, part ...

When I read the OP about connected dreams I had to think of Battlestar Galactica ... all along the watchtower ...

What connection does Daenerys have to wolves? She doesn't know the direwolves and calls ghe Starks ursurper's dogs. But we have MMD's ceremony of the Great Wolf and the Man in Flames, aka R'Hollor vs. the Great Other. Both are apparently needed to birth the dragons. Daenerys joining the feast of the wolf king in mute appeal suggests that Starks and Targaryens have more in common than they assume. And Daenerys dies in the end as she joins the feast of the dead. That was possibly forshadowed in the tv version of the HotU when she met Drogo and Rhaego. ...I haven't watched the whole series so the tv reference is something I can't comment on, but as to the Dany/direwolf connection; it seems most of us believe that the big conclusion has more to do with the Others than the GoT. Or maybe I'm just speaking for myself, but if Dany has the power of the dragons with her, then the connection is more about creating the connection than what exists already. The Starks held the North for way longer than the Targs held Westeros, but their combined power is likely needed if the Others are the great evil. & if not there needs to be a connection for Dany to accept that R+L=J, if that's true. There is a whole bunch of things that Dany does not know about situations she finds herself in, maybe her experience in Slaver's Bay will provide important lessons of listening & taking advice better should she ever find her way to Westeros?

And yes, the Starks are evil. (sarc...right?)

IMHO Theon can't die before he kills Ramsay with a grey goose arrow in the back. So maybe Bran wants to sacrifice Theon to save Jon but messes it up so Jon dies saving Theon? Bran?

Also, Jaime started Bran's arc by pushing him so Bran needs to end Jaime's arc...It does seem that they are stuck on a common arc, maybe Jaime goes NotW to retrieve Bran?

I hope not. He and Jaime are the most redeemable characters in the series. Theon didn't do what he did at Winterfell because he's an evil person: he did it to please his father and because he wanted his father to be proud of him and to earn his place as heir to Pyke. That doesn't excuse him, but it does make him more...I guess "pitiable" is a good word.

I keep thinking that Rodrik the Reader told us the story of the king who came late to the kingsmoot for a reason. It might not be too late for Theon.

Pitiable is a good word, & I like/agree with your reasoning. I may just be waiting t have the rug yanked out from under a seemingly very important character, but you are so correct the RtR story is there for a reason, which may be Theon's saving grace.

[Ice Queen]

Pitiable is a good word, & I like/agree with your reasoning. I may just be waiting t have the rug yanked out from under a seemingly very important character, but you are so correct the RtR story is there for a reason, which may be Theon's saving grace.

Pitiable is a good word, & I like/agree with your reasoning. I may just be waiting t have the rug yanked out from under a seemingly very important character, but you are so correct the RtR story is there for a reason, which may be Theon's saving grace.

By the way I have no problem with Jaime being the LH/Azor Ahai. In fact IMO his whole arc points to it.

And I don't think the Starks, Bran in particular, are the paragons they're made out to be. It won't surprise me in the least if one of them ends up on the side of the Others. They've forgotten their history.

So I think we're on the same page. :)

So much more I could write but I'm on my phone.

[Ice Queen]

Did I quote the wrong person? Apologies if I did.

[Lord_Rose]

Crown of Iron and Wolfs head could be a reference to the slaughter of Theons Iron born when Ramsay came back and retook winterfell but I feel thats this is only a possiblity not a reality I belive That Iron Born and has more than just a side plot in this i Believe That horn is the real horn that can shatter the wall which may contain a dragon ( Jons ) perhaps idk I just assuming

[Kyoshi]

Agree with all of these thoughts...

I know brining Tyrion in at this point of thread is probably not the best fit, but it's been said that he sleeps very little. I wonder if there is somewhere that states it is to avoid dreams? He clearly is very clever & fits much of the criteria Kyoshi lays out above, & it could be argued that by the end of DwD he has lost as much or more than anyone else in the series from a power standpoint. He has almost died, more than once, at the hands or at least will of someone he loved in a sibling fashion, if not exactly trusted. & now he seems poised to offer his services to Dany. (I know she's been warned to beware of the Lion among others).

[snip]

I don't think it's too late to bring anyone. I hadn't even considered that Jaime might be part of the shared dream when I started this thread. It also just occurred to me that we keep overlooking Brienne. Anyway, the thing I noted is that Tyrion is noticeably absent from Jaime's part of the dream. That immediately "disqualified" him as part of this whole thing. Then again, his absence could mean something completely different :dunno:

I hope not. He and Jaime are the most redeemable characters in the series. Theon didn't do what he did at Winterfell because he's an evil person: he did it to please his father and because he wanted his father to be proud of him and to earn his place as heir to Pyke. That doesn't excuse him, but it does make him more...I guess "pitiable" is a good word.

I keep thinking that Rodrik the Reader told us the story of the king who came late to the kingsmoot for a reason. It might not be too late for Theon.

I also hope it's not too late for Theon but I also strongly believe he will end up as some kind of sacrificial lamb. I sincerely hope I'm wrong though.

What a fantastic thread.

I discovered it late and had to read it at once so my replies are part silly, part sarcastic, part ...

When I read the OP about connected dreams I had to think of Battlestar Galactica ... all along the watchtower ...

What connection does Daenerys have to wolves? She doesn't know the direwolves and calls ghe Starks ursurper's dogs. But we have MMD's ceremony of the Great Wolf and the Man in Flames, aka R'Hollor vs. the Great Other. Both are apparently needed to birth the dragons. Daenerys joining the feast of the wolf king in mute appeal suggests that Starks and Targaryens have more in common than they assume. And Daenerys dies in the end as she joins the feast of the dead. That was possibly forshadowed in the tv version of the HotU when she met Drogo and Rhaego.

And yes, the Starks are evil.

IMHO Theon can't die before he kills Ramsay with a grey goose arrow in the back. So maybe Bran wants to sacrifice Theon to save Jon but messes it up so Jon dies saving Theon?

Also, Jaime started Bran's arc by pushing him so Bran needs to end Jaime's arc.

A "connection" between Dany and the direwolves that stood out to me was this one:

From a Daenerys Dream in Daenerys IX, A Game of Thrones:

Ser Jorahs face was drawn and sorrowful. Rhaegar was the last dragon, he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. The last dragon, he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone. She felt the dark behind her, and the red door seemed farther away than ever. ... don’t want to wake the dragon, do you? Viserys stood before her, screaming. The dragon does not beg, slut. You do not command the dragon. I am the dragon, and I will be crowned. The molten gold trickled down his face like wax, burning deep channels in his flesh. I am the dragon and I will be crowned! he shrieked, and his fingers snapped like snakes, biting at her nipples, pinching, twisting, even as his eyes burst and ran like jelly down seared and blackened cheeks. ... don’t want to wake the dragon The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run. ... don’t want to wake the dragon. She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb."

The bolded part stood out because it was very reminiscent of part of the Ghost of High Heart's prophecy: I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief.

I could be wrong about this but I don't think dragons howl. It stuck me as especially odd that Dany, someone who identifies herself as a dragon, should fear howling forever alone in the darkness. The language used is hauntingly similar. Could be deliberate on GRRM's part, could just be coincidence...but at this point, it seems a connection to me. Finally, I am not disputing that the Ghost of High Heart was referring to Grey Wind/Robb in that prophecy, only that the similarity seems to connect, IMHO, two seemingly unconnected characters.

Crown of Iron and Wolfs head could be a reference to the slaughter of Theons Iron born when Ramsay came back and retook winterfell but I feel thats this is only a possiblity not a reality I belive That Iron Born and has more than just a side plot in this i Believe That horn is the real horn that can shatter the wall which may contain a dragon ( Jons ) perhaps idk I just assuming

This is one of those things that conflict me: I believe Theon and the Ironborn have a much bigger role to play than mere sacrifice, but I can also see how the sacrificial lamb arc makes sense. I'll have to wait for the final book for this one.

[Julia H.]

I also find it both odd and fascinating that Theon and Jaime have such subtle connections here. Even more fascinating to me is the possibility that Jon might have to "wake his dragon" beneath the crypts of Winterfell--a Stark place [please note that I am not theorising there is an ice/stone dragon hidden beneath Winterfell :P ].

If Jon and Dany are the dragons that need awakening in order to fulfill some prophecy, I wonder if some kind of metaphoric death is required [ and maybe for all our supposed "heroes"]. Let me elaborate: in order to embrace her dragon, Dany stepped in the pyre and brought dragons back into the world. I think it's safe to say Dany "hatched"--she died and was reborn a dragon (like you suggest). The "magical" person most associated with fire died by fire. Then we have Jon, who was stabbed in the North and only felt the cold. I think in a sense we can say the "magical" person who at this point, is mostly associated with ice, died by ice, a metaphoric death of course. Then we have Bran, who had his own coma in the first book after a fall that should have killed him. And Bran loved to climb but now he can't even ride a horse, forget becoming a knight.

Now Theon, who died as Theon and was reborn as Reek then reborn as Theon again. Lastly, Jaime, who at this point I can only say died as a Lannister and was reborn as a man with honour :dunno: I realise I am stretching it at this point but these death connections seem significant somehow. And please allow me to elaborate further:

From the time we meet him in AGOT, Theon has a big ego. He is the only remaining son of a high lord (a man also fond of declaring himself king of the Iron Islands), a prince of sorts, and he is as arrogant as anyone can be. His name and status are everything to him because they define everything about him. Theon Greyjoy is all that Theon has. But Theon Greyjoy dies and Reek is born. With Jaime it goes beyond the name, it extends to his prowess as a warrior. His hand is everything to him and he loses it--he dies in a sense.

The point I am trying to make is that it seems to me that each of these people has lost a valuable thing, something they treasure above all else:

• Dany - husband and child.

Bran - physical ability.

Theon - his identity.

Jaime - his hand.

Jon - I honestly can't say what he lost. Perhaps his mother and sense of belonging?

So I wonder if it is a pre-requisite to have "died" in order to belong at the feast for the dead, the feast of "heroes." You know, like a tragic beginnings sort of deal. I can be crackpot inclined. I know I've crossed many lines with this one post. :P

Also, does anyone know how to pin a thread? I want to pin this one.

This post has made me think of how these characters can be associated with the classical elements (fire, water, air and earth). I can think of two ways to classify them:

1) There are “fire characters”, each of whom is associated with one of the other elements as well, and “water characters” (where ice is a form of water), also each of them associated with another (secondary) element:

Fire

Dany: fire (dragons) + air (dragons fly)

Jaime: fire (crimson, South) + earth (because of his connection with gold, a metal that can be mined from earth, and with Casterly Rock)

Water

Bran: ice (North) / water + air (flying and heights)

Theon: water + earth (Ironborn, iron comes from the earth)

Fire and Water

Jon: ice (water) + fire

2) Or, to identify each of them with one element only:

Dany: fire

Jaime: earth (because of the gold and the Rock, and also note how his doom seems to be at the moment Lady Stoneheart)

Bran: air

Theon: water

Jon: quintessence, the fifth element associated with the gods or the divine (whereas the others are earthly elements :P)

What do you think?

[igrewupinKL]

This post has made me think of how these characters can be associated with the classical elements (fire, water, air and earth). I can think of two ways to classify them:

1) There are “fire characters”, each of whom is associated with one of the other elements as well, and “water characters” (where ice is a form of water), also each of them associated with another (secondary) element:

Fire

Dany: fire (dragons) + air (dragons fly)

Jaime: fire (crimson, South) + earth (because of his connection with gold, a metal that can be mined from earth, and with Casterly Rock)

Water

Bran: ice (North) / water + air (flying and heights)

Theon: water + earth (Ironborn, iron comes from the earth)

Fire and Water

Jon: ice (water) + fire

2) Or, to identify each of them with one element only:

Dany: fire

Jaime: earth (because of the gold and the Rock, and also note how his doom seems to be at the moment Lady Stoneheart)

Bran: air

Theon: water

Jon: quintessence, the fifth element associated with the gods or the divine (whereas the others are earthly elements :P)

What do you think?

The fifth..fifth element..?

http://i.imgur.com/CVUdQwP.gif

Sorry couldn't help myself

I think there are 3 main elements of magic in the story

- white walkers; ice, cold darkness

- COTF; earth, life, air

- rh'llor; fire, heat, light

It kind've suits the theme to have 3 powers, george seems to be a man for 3's. The COTF magic is like the balance between the two others. Who knows, perhaps fire and ice is what happens when magic goes wrong (origin of WW? first dragon in valyria?) but these things we don't know and can only speculate on. (hurry up TWOW!)

I think i've figured out a trend...people have prophetic dreams when they are connected to the two extreme powers ice and fire or that middle ground. Jaime and Theon were next to/lying close to weirwoods when they had their dreams (jaime on a weriwood tree and theon the weirwood in ned's bed). Bran and Jon are already highly connected to the old gods being Stark or partly Stark, having direwolfves and, well Bran being a greenseer.

Dany on the other hand is highly connected to the other side, fire, she is a true dragon, and has prophetic dreams before the birth of her dragons because ultimately there must have been an intense blood/fire magic surge from MMD to birth them...

But why Jaime and Theon i think is my main question. They are either just coincidental because they were lying on weirwoods or they were dreams planted by BR or some other force. Lets think about Jaime.

- Jaime's dream was essential for saving Brienne

- Jaime was confronting all of his guilty consciousnesses and bad decisions in the past

- Jaime seemed 'changed' after it. Started to try and regain honour again

Now Theon

- Theon's dream was a projection of his guilt for betraying the Starks, lack of belonging and uncertainty of where he belongs (at the time)

- Theon believes in the old gods after his dream and encounter in the godswood after fArya

- thinks the old gods 'know him'

- is he just too far gone, and know BR is using him as a chess piece for a greater purpose?

It seems like Jaime and Theon's dreams address the similar issues and if you think about it they do have some similarities. Both are people who have done bad/dishonourable things and both in their dreams realise what they've become or who they truly are. Essentially good people, both Jaime and Theon weren't evil in their childhood if you compare them to the likes of Ramsay, Cersei and Euron. They turned bad because of other's influences (Cersei, Ramsay) or their own stupidity/sense of abandonment.

Bran sees things, i think he was being enticed by BR from the dreams he had and i think it was mostly to get Bran to come to his cave to be the next greenseer. Being in BR's position must hold a lot of power. if BR is evil, why would he choose someone so honourable to fulfill his role? I don't quite buy into the BR=evil theories.

Dany's dreams are generally the same, she sees past regrets but also her dreams are very prophetic in nature

Jon's crypt dream is for him to figure something out. The rest of his dreams seem prophetic (black armour in ice)

In that way both Dany, Jon and Bran are connected. All of them have had prophetic dreams

I think somehow Jaime will help Dany and Theon will help Jon in the battle against the Others.

My feeling is that Theon will be sacrificed before a weirwood and somehow help Jon to recover from the stabbing much like Lady's death helped to wake up Bran

[Alaynsa Starne]

Agree with all of these thoughts...

I know brining Tyrion in at this point of thread is probably not the best fit, but it's been said that he sleeps very little. I wonder if there is somewhere that states it is to avoid dreams? He clearly is very clever & fits much of the criteria Kyoshi lays out above, & it could be argued that by the end of DwD he has lost as much or more than anyone else in the series from a power standpoint. He has almost died, more than once, at the hands or at least will of someone he loved in a sibling fashion, if not exactly trusted. & now he seems poised to offer his services to Dany. (I know she's been warned to beware of the Lion among others).

In many ways I look at Tyrion as a similar arc to Theon, except where Theon got this way by trying to be what he was not, 1st a Stark, then true IB, now shell of a man, Tyrion always seemed to be a schemer, but true to himself. That also sets him apart from 2handed Jaime. Which in it's own weird way binds him closer to Jon & Dany in terms of character, but because he is so off the radar, BR may never have a chance to weirnet dreams to solidify the connection. Sorry Kyoshi, I may have out crackpotted you with this ;)

I totally agree that Jamie is being pulled into the fight with the Others through his relationship with Brienne, the scope of dreams, & his own awakening & attention to detail of Westeros outside of the GoT in KL. I think Theon is part of this dreamnet to prove he's the outsider & ultimately the most expendable to the continuing story. Jon is poised to awaken as something bigger than he imagines (if he survives). Dany may be united with pieces of her puzzle that finally give her direction beyond Slaver's Bay, & it seems Tyrion could be a big part of that...esp if he connects with Rheagal. I can't link to whoever discussed the old king cheering Dany on as being representative of multiple great houses before Aegon 1st united Westeros, but I seems we have members representing each group in thee thread, apparently being pushed together.

I think Tyrion was mentioned as staying awake late into the night in AGOT because he liked to stay up reading, but I might be wrong on that. I can't even remember if Tyrion mentions dreams at all, or if there was some sort of dream sequence shown in one of his povs.

As far as Tyrion losing his power, I don't know that power is what Tyrion wants or needs most, in comparison to what other characters in the shared dream lost. Tyrion's main problem is that he wants to be loved more than anything, but never is. It doesn't seem that he's lost anything, only that he is incapable of gaining something. Unless, of course, you count Tysha who truly did love him. Although she predates the timeline of the series, so maybe not? That's just kind of up in the air.

I'm not saying he won't be included in this shared dream in the future, or that the dream has nothing to do with him (tbh I think the dream has something to do with anyone in or linked to Westeros). I just don't see any evidence that Tyrion has had or will have a dream like this.

[Alaynsa Starne]

I don't think it's too late to bring anyone. I hadn't even considered that Jaime might be part of the shared dream when I started this thread. It also just occurred to me that we keep overlooking Brienne. Anyway, the thing I noted is that Tyrion is noticeably absent from Jaime's part of the dream. That immediately "disqualified" him as part of this whole thing. Then again, his absence could mean something completely different :dunno:

Something that's occurred to me is that Jaime is the only member of his generation that has had one of these dreams. Jon, Dany, Theon, and Bran are all from the younger generation. Brienne, who takes an very active role in Jaime's dream, is also from the younger generation. Jaime's sword goes out, but Brienne's stays lit. This is supposed to mean that he'll die, but could it also symbolize one generation passing the responsibility of fighting the Others (they are holding flaming swords after all) onto the next? It would explain why Jon, who is closest to the conflict, would be aware of Jaime's light going out.

Edit: That's my awkward way of trying to include Brienne in the conversation.