R+L=J v.85

[MtnLion]

<snip>

In other words, Rhaegar's bastard still has both dynastic and mystical importance. There is no need for him to be legitimate for either of those purposes.

This is what it comes down to for you? Denial that Jon is legitimate. There is much too much to support that Jon is legitimate, and instead of picking at the fringes and trying to build a case on how Ned view's his sister, why not look at the direct evidence? The Kingsguard at the tower of joy. (Feel free to review the conversation, the link is in my signature.)

Even if you really don't want to accept what is right there in the text, why come along and start making one-line posts?

[sj4iy]

This is what it comes down to for you? Denial that Jon is legitimate. There is much too much to support that Jon is legitimate, and instead of picking at the fringes and trying to build a case on how Ned view's his sister, why not look at the direct evidence? The Kingsguard at the tower of joy. (Feel free to review the conversation, the link is in my signature.)

Even if you really don't want to accept what is right there in the text, why come along and start making one-line posts?

Yeah, I don't see any other reason for the KG to have said what they said at the ToJ unless Jon was the legitimate son and heir of Rhaegar....it just makes no sense. They wouldn't guard a bastard son with their lives while another trueborn heir exists, they just wouldn't.

[Greymoon]

In the wars between Maegor and Aenys's heirs, Maegor had Blackfyre while Jaehaerys's side (the rightful claimants) had Dark Sister. In TPaTQ, Aegon II had Blackfyre while Daemon, who was married to Viserys's chosen heir, wielded Dark Sister. In the Blackfyre Rebellion, Daemon wielded the sword form which he took his name while BR, who fought on the side of the rightful king Daeron II, wielded Dark Sister.

I think I am seeing a pattern. The rightful heirs wield Dark Sister while the rebels/usurpers wield Blackfyre. FAegon will no doubt get Blackfyre while Dark Sister may likely be with BR in the CotF cave near the Wall, and may find it's way to Jon. Perhaps, a hint that Jon is the rightful heir while Aegon is a usurper?

Yes, there seems to be a sort of pattern...

Do we know that Bloodraven took the sword to the wall? I'd assume that when someone joins the watch, old family heirlooms are usually left behind to be passed on to the next promising heir.... Jorah returned his sword to Jeor; who didn't give it to his sister and nieces...but Jeor also had no male heirs left to him after Jorah...right?

The Targaryen case is a bit different, there was still male claimants to the throne alive in Bloodraven's days, and young enough to father more children-- they did, too.... so, it would make sense that the sword actually never made it to the wall, but was "put in reserve" to be eventually passed over to someone else...We have no reports of Aegon V wielding it or anyone else after Bloodraven, but I always imagined that if Rhaegar sought a "Visenya" he would have wanted her trained in swordsmanship....

in any case.... I just think that if you believe your children are destined for greater things, you'd probably want them to inherit specific heirlooms... Even if Bloodraven took Dark Sister to the wall, Maester Aemon could have known something about it, and Rhaegar could have recovered it... the sword could well be buried at Winterfell imo.

[Ygritte]

Yes, there seems to be a sort of pattern...

Do we know that Bloodraven took the sword to the wall? I'd assume that when someone joins the watch, old family heirlooms are usually left behind to be passed on to the next promising heir.... Jorah returned his sword to Jeor; who didn't give it to his sister and nieces...but Jeor also had no male heirs left to him after Jorah...right?

The Targaryen case is a bit different, there was still male claimants to the throne alive in Bloodraven's days, and young enough to father more children-- they did, too.... so, it would make sense that the sword actually never made it to the wall, but was "put in reserve" to be eventually passed over to someone else...We have no reports of Aegon V wielding it or anyone else after Bloodraven, but I always imagined that if Rhaegar sought a "Visenya" he would have wanted her trained in swordsmanship....

in any case.... I just think that if you believe your children are destined for greater things, you'd probably want them to inherit specific heirlooms... Even if Bloodraven took Dark Sister to the wall, Maester Aemon could have known something about it, and Rhaegar could have recovered it... the sword could well be buried at Winterfell imo.

I have yet to get a firm grasp on what you're allowed to keep at the Wall. Obviously, the NW guys who were knights used to bring their shields but then renounce them to hang on the wall. But Jon gets to keep a pet, which I wouldn't have expected.

ETA: Oh, and you can also apparently BYO armor (see Waymar Royce) and wear it, as long as it's black, so a rich guy could be better outfitted than a poor guy.

[BearQueen87]

Yes, there seems to be a sort of pattern...

Do we know that Bloodraven took the sword to the wall? I'd assume that when someone joins the watch, old family heirlooms are usually left behind to be passed on to the next promising heir.... Jorah returned his sword to Jeor; who didn't give it to his sister and nieces...but Jeor also had no male heirs left to him after Jorah...right?

The Targaryen case is a bit different, there was still male claimants to the throne alive in Bloodraven's days, and young enough to father more children-- they did, too.... so, it would make sense that the sword actually never made it to the wall, but was "put in reserve" to be eventually passed over to someone else...We have no reports of Aegon V wielding it or anyone else after Bloodraven, but I always imagined that if Rhaegar sought a "Visenya" he would have wanted her trained in swordsmanship....

in any case.... I just think that if you believe your children are destined for greater things, you'd probably want them to inherit specific heirlooms... Even if Bloodraven took Dark Sister to the wall, Maester Aemon could have known something about it, and Rhaegar could have recovered it... the sword could well be buried at Winterfell imo.

We don't know if Bloodraven took the sword to the Wall or not. We also don't know where Blackfyre is, though I think it showing up with fAegon is a really good guess. IIRC, Bittersteel took it with him when he fled to the Free Cities.

Jeor Mormont had no other male heirs besides Jorah. The sword was sent to the wall by Jeor's sister, Maege after Jorah fled Ned Stark's justice.

[Aeron_Damphair]

Once upon a time this thread was a place for people to discuss whether Lyanna is Jon's mother. Is that now out of bounds?

If so, I suggest taking a deep breath and reading the first article in the new "Reference Guide" that appears at the start of this thread! which discusses the various plausible possibilities for Jon's mother.

Anyway, there is plenty of support for the idea that Ned thinks a woman changes houses when she takes off her father's cloak and dons her husband. This is certainly not a crackpot theory.

Of course this is a place to discuss whether or not Lyanna is Jon's mother, if there is one, even though I think the matter is settled beyond doubt.

I don't fault you for making arguments, I'm just faulting the particular argument that you're making re: Ned remembering Lyanna as a Stark somehow being proof she died unwed.

The Elia Martell example pretty well eradicates that supposed evidence.

[Greymoon]

I have yet to get a firm grasp on what you're allowed to keep at the Wall. Obviously, the NW guys who were knights used to bring their shields but then renounce them to hang on the wall. But Jon gets to keep a pet, which I wouldn't have expected.

ETA: Oh, and you can also apparently BYO armor (see Waymar Royce) and wear it, as long as it's black, so a rich guy could be better outfitted than a poor guy.

I think there's plenty one is allowed to bring to the wall, as you said your own armor...wasn't Jon outfitted before leaving Winterfell?.. family heirloom's a different matter though, the family/head of House might not agree with it.... I mean, Bloodraven wielded Dark Sister -- but did the sword belong to him or did it belong to House Targaryen? if the latter, it is reasonable to expect that he was never allowed to take it to the wall...not because the LC objected, but because it was to go to another Targaryen.... and once a man takes NW vows, he forsakes all claims/ties to his former house, no?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think there's plenty one is allowed to bring to the wall, as you said your own armor...wasn't Jon outfitted before leaving Winterfell?.. family heirloom's a different matter though, the family/head of House might not agree with it.... I mean, Bloodraven wielded Dark Sister -- but did the sword belong to him or did it belong to House Targaryen? if the latter, it is reasonable to expect that he was never allowed to take it to the wall...not because the LC objected, but because it was to go to another Targaryen.... and once a man takes NW vows, he forsakes all claims/ties to his former house, no?

As long as it is black ;) Samwell had brought his own armour as well, but it wasn't black, and thus he had to make do with leftovers.

As to Dark Sister.. Since it was Maekar who had Bloodraven imprisoned, it is very possible that Maekar took possession of it as King, and then either kept it for himself, put it in a vault, or gave it to someone close to him.

[FrozenFire3]

Spoilers for tPatQ; and the Rogue Prince (maybe?)

I was working along the same lines ;)

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child woman of surpassing loveliness.

Laena was a maid of two-and-twenty, tall, slender and

surpassingly lovely.

'The wolf blood', my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it [...] Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it [...] Beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time [...] You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath.

A fiery young maiden, freshly flowered [...] a bold, adventurous spirit.

"You ride like a northman, milady," Harwin said when he'd drawn them to a halt. "Your aunt was the same. Lady Lyanna" [...] Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself [...] A pair of centaurs, those two.

Laena loved to fly [...] Her Ladyship shows far more interest in flying than in boys

Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strenght and her voice had been faint as a whisper [...] He dreamt an old dream [...] and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood [...] he could hear Lyanna screaming.

A day and a night of labor left Laena Velaryon pale and weak [...] Her grueling labor had

drained all of Lady Laena's strenghth, and grief weakend her still further, making her helpless before the onset of childbed fever [...] After three days of delirium, Lady Laena passed from this mortal coil [...] During her final hour, it is said, Lady Laena rose from her bed and made her way from her room, intent on reaching Vhagar tha she might fly one last time before she died. Her strength failed her on the tower steps, however, and it was there she collapsed and died.

Also a rough parallel can be drawn when it comes to age difference: 8 years for R+L and

12 years for Daemon-Laena.

[Ygrain]

I was working along the same lines ;)

Laena was a maid of two-and-twenty, tall, slender and

surpassingly lovely.

A fiery young maiden, freshly flowered [...] a bold, adventurous spirit.

Laena loved to fly [...] Her Ladyship shows far more interest in flying than in boys

A day and a night of labor left Laena Velaryon pale and weak [...] Her grueling labor had

drained all of Lady Laena's strenghth, and grief weakend her still further, making her helpless before the onset of childbed fever [...] After three days of delirium, Lady Laena passed from this mortal coil [...] During her final hour, it is said, Lady Laena rose from her bed and made her way from her room, intent on reaching Vhagar tha she might fly one last time before she died. Her strength failed her on the tower steps, however, and it was there she collapsed and died.

Also a rough parallel can be drawn when it comes to age difference: 8 years for R+L and

12 years for Daemon-Laena.

Lovely parallels! Way too many to be accidental.

Also, I haven't read TPAQ or the Rogue Prince, but

there seems to be a parallel in Rhaegar-Lyanna and Daemon-Rhaenyra situation.

- Viserys I disliked Daemon and refused to permit him a second marriage to Rhaenyra

- later on, Daemon and Rhaenyra married secretly on Dragonstone, for fear that Viserys might put a stop to it

As someone pointed out elsewhere, being the bookworm he was, Rhaegar would have known the details and taken care to avoid the Daemon scenario

[BearQueen87]

I was working along the same lines ;)

Laena was a maid of two-and-twenty, tall, slender and

surpassingly lovely.

A fiery young maiden, freshly flowered [...] a bold, adventurous spirit.

Laena loved to fly [...] Her Ladyship shows far more interest in flying than in boys

A day and a night of labor left Laena Velaryon pale and weak [...] Her grueling labor had

drained all of Lady Laena's strenghth, and grief weakend her still further, making her helpless before the onset of childbed fever [...] After three days of delirium, Lady Laena passed from this mortal coil [...] During her final hour, it is said, Lady Laena rose from her bed and made her way from her room, intent on reaching Vhagar tha she might fly one last time before she died. Her strength failed her on the tower steps, however, and it was there she collapsed and died.

Also a rough parallel can be drawn when it comes to age difference: 8 years for R+L and

12 years for Daemon-Laena.

Nice!! i just picked The Rogue Prince so now I'm going to be looking for these :)

[Greymoon]

Ygrain,

The parallel also exist with D + L

Laena was Daemon's second wife....they married and fled to the free cities; knowing the King would be vexed....

Later, after Laena's death, Daemon married Rhaenyra (third wife, then)... Laena and Rhaenyra were friends... I find the Laena/Daemon/Rhaenyra triangle to be rather...interesting.

FrozenFire3, these are great! I hesitated to get into too much details myself, because I can only base any such parallels on the info found in the wiki...I'm sort of hoping we'll see a paperback edition of tPatQ soon....or something in smaller format (asoiaf universe only.)...the hardcover 1000+ pages anthology takes up an awful lot of space, and I'm only interested in 100 or so pages of the book, so....(plus it's awfully big, and while it fits right next to Dance; all my over books are nice, small formats -- it disturbs the esthetics of my bookshelves... ;) )

[FrozenFire3]

Lovely parallels! Way too many to be accidental.

Also, I haven't read TPAQ or the Rogue Prince, but

As someone pointed out elsewhere, being the bookworm he was, Rhaegar would have known the details and taken care to avoid the Daemon scenario.

Absolutely. Parallels abound.

There is a

line of blood (a fil rouge of sort) and not only a blood line connecting Daemon to his descendants. Facts, acts, choices, symbolisms, mysteries and even swords recur in this endless spiral of stories within stories. Blood is associated with Daemon times and again, from his dragon Caraxes knowns as the Blood Wyrm to his seat on Bloodstone. Not to mention the 13 marks he slashes on the weirwood in Harrenhal bleeding every spring since... and you know, in such a tidal clashing and merging of opposite forces, lores and magic sources I can't stop thinking he is the direct ancestor of BR, Rhaegar and, well, Jon.

[Fire Eater]

I was working along the same lines ;)

Laena was a maid of two-and-twenty, tall, slender and

surpassingly lovely.

A fiery young maiden, freshly flowered [...] a bold, adventurous spirit.

Laena loved to fly [...] Her Ladyship shows far more interest in flying than in boys

A day and a night of labor left Laena Velaryon pale and weak [...] Her grueling labor had

drained all of Lady Laena's strenghth, and grief weakend her still further, making her helpless before the onset of childbed fever [...] After three days of delirium, Lady Laena passed from this mortal coil [...] During her final hour, it is said, Lady Laena rose from her bed and made her way from her room, intent on reaching Vhagar tha she might fly one last time before she died. Her strength failed her on the tower steps, however, and it was there she collapsed and died.

Also a rough parallel can be drawn when it comes to age difference: 8 years for R+L and

12 years for Daemon-Laena.

Good ones all FrozenFire3.

The Dragon has three heads, there must be one more

Lyanna died giving birth to a son, the child Rhaegar had desired for the PtwP.

A day and a night of labor left Laena Velaryon pale and weak, but finally she gave birth to the son Prince Daemon had so long desired.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I was working along the same lines ;)

Laena was a maid of two-and-twenty, tall, slender and

surpassingly lovely.

A fiery young maiden, freshly flowered [...] a bold, adventurous spirit.

Laena loved to fly [...] Her Ladyship shows far more interest in flying than in boys

A day and a night of labor left Laena Velaryon pale and weak [...] Her grueling labor had

drained all of Lady Laena's strenghth, and grief weakend her still further, making her helpless before the onset of childbed fever [...] After three days of delirium, Lady Laena passed from this mortal coil [...] During her final hour, it is said, Lady Laena rose from her bed and made her way from her room, intent on reaching Vhagar tha she might fly one last time before she died. Her strength failed her on the tower steps, however, and it was there she collapsed and died.

Also a rough parallel can be drawn when it comes to age difference: 8 years for R+L and

12 years for Daemon-Laena.

Absolutely. Parallels abound.

There is a

line of blood (a fil rouge of sort) and not only a blood line connecting Daemon to his descendants. Facts, acts, choices, symbolisms, mysteries and even swords recur in this endless spiral of stories within stories. Blood is associated with Daemon times and again, from his dragon Caraxes knowns as the Blood Wyrm to his seat on Bloodstone. Not to mention the 13 marks he slashes on the weirwood in Harrenhal bleeding every spring since... and you know, in such a tidal clashing and merging of opposite forces, lores and magic sources I can't stop thinking he is the direct ancestor of BR, Rhaegar and, well, Jon.

:bowdown:

I agree with Ygrain-- lovely and surely not accidental!

Also

Daemon's blood theme is fascinating. GRRM uses this theme of blood to indicate family time and time again throughout the series. Surely there is something important at work when it is so heavily associated with one family, and even one line.

I can't help but think that, paired with the parallels you note, we are being directed to some conclusion that has significance to his unfolding story.