More homosexuality in the series

[Cas Stark]

I'm once again going to explain my point. I think a fundemental differ eve here is people who are solely investing in the story and people who invest in the story and the whole world. I'm here for the full experience. I am in no way stating that there is t enough gay in the series, because compared to all other fantasy I've read, it's the most I've seen. However, I don't think it's crime wanting to see a little more, and as I said before I'd love to see a fully rounded lesbian character. I understand that for a straight person it must be hard to understand why gay people look at asioaf and still want more gay characters, but like I said it means a lot to read characters like you. I'm not asking for chapters full of gay sex, just a few more gay characters. To give more realism to the world and add more depth. I really don't think that will distract from the storyline. I don't want them to be token characters, I don't want it to be distracting for the story. Our sexuality isn't the fundemental part of who we are but it's a big part and Martin has weaves it into asoiaf so well, so yeah I'd like to see more gay characters. I'd like to see more black characters and oriental characters. For me it's all about word expansion. If we didn't get more gay I wouldn't be heartbroken, but I don't think it's bad asking for more.

I can understand what you are saying in that of course reading a character that you can directly relate to will enrich the experience...... but I am always VERY wary of the checklist type of critique...more gays, more blacks, more asians, ,more of this kind of female, more of this group, more of that group.....because I don't believe it's really about world expansion, no offense to you, but it's about imposing a certain kind of modern perspective on a work of art....and I simply can't behind the idea of the checklist of special groups/identities that has some kind of automatic improvement ability.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I'm once again going to explain my point. I think a fundemental differ eve here is people who are solely investing in the story and people who invest in the story and the whole world. I'm here for the full experience. I am in no way stating that there is t enough gay in the series, because compared to all other fantasy I've read, it's the most I've seen. However, I don't think it's crime wanting to see a little more, and as I said before I'd love to see a fully rounded lesbian character. I understand that for a straight person it must be hard to understand why gay people look at asioaf and still want more gay characters, but like I said it means a lot to read characters like you. I'm not asking for chapters full of gay sex, just a few more gay characters. To give more realism to the world and add more depth. I really don't think that will distract from the storyline. I don't want them to be token characters, I don't want it to be distracting for the story. Our sexuality isn't the fundemental part of who we are but it's a big part and Martin has weaves it into asoiaf so well, so yeah I'd like to see more gay characters. I'd like to see more black characters and oriental characters. For me it's all about word expansion. If we didn't get more gay I wouldn't be heartbroken, but I don't think it's bad asking for more.

Black and oriental characters in England during the 14th century..... Other than an embassy from the Mongols in the 13th century, this is completely anachronistic.... Perhaps the Dornish could sport a few black characters, and that would make more sense I suppose. But the reality is, black moors were not exactly welcomed outside of Muslim Iberia. So maybe if we get more on Dorn, we can see a few pop up.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I can understand what you are saying in that of course reading a character that you can directly relate to will enrich the experience...... but I am always VERY wary of the checklist type of critique...more gays, more blacks, more asians, ,more of this kind of female, more of this group, more of that group.....because I don't believe it's really about world expansion, no offense to you, but it's about imposing a certain kind of modern perspective on a work of art....and I simply can't behind the idea of the checklist of special groups/identities that has some kind of automatic improvement ability.

YES.

We should not be forced to move down a list, as you say, in order to ensure we got everyone. That is a huge problem with the US, we must be all inclusive otherwise we are offensive...... I really dislike that line of thought.

[AlliYoyo]

Satin is said to have a beard...

Which does not necessarily preclude that Satin is a girl. It's not unheard of for women to have mustaches, so I'm pretty sure women can grow beards if they really wanted to, the phrase "bearded lady" comes to mind. I'm not 100% certain, but I think if a woman decided to start shaving their face they would eventually grow a beard the way a man does.

Although I doubt whether Satin is a girl.

Jon/Satin isn't there, that is probably why you never picked up on it. Jon Connington, I think is gay and had an unrequited love for Rhaegar, that seems a reasonable speculation. I don't know about the Blackfish, other than him not being married, which I hope alone is not cause for speculation on his sexuality, I don't remember anything in the text that is suggestive of any sexual preference really, or, didn't he want to marry a woman and his brother objected? and then he refused to marry at all?

IIRC, Hoster tried to marry the Blackfish off, but he flatly refused. Now I never read that he was gay into that, but when I saw a comment to that effect (I think in the Shipping thread), I was like 'that makes sense'. Doesn't bother me one way or the other.

I think ASOIAF needs more straight characters, ambiguity is just messing with my head and hetero characters should have zero comments on the appearance of any other character of the same gender. Every time they reference a person of the other gender they should do so wholly in the context of having sex with them. Storylines and descriptions of characters have no place in my ASOIAF Smut!

Any why can't a hetero character make a comment about the looks or appearance of a character of the same gender? I'm a straight woman, and I can recognise beauty in women without it being more than that.

Apologies if that was feeding a troll. I sometimes find it hard to tell.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I think ASOIAF needs more straight characters, ambiguity is just messing with my head and hetero characters should have zero comments on the appearance of any other character of the same gender. Every time they reference a person of the other gender they should do so wholly in the context of having sex with them. Storylines and descriptions of characters have no place in my ASOIAF Smut!

7 Shades of Ice and Fire.......

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I'm a Christian, and I quite often use this line in jest when discussing "why gays can't believe in God" or "why gays shouldn't be allowed to be ministers/preachers". Worryingly the sarcasm is rarely, if ever, detected...

That is one of the problems of the internet, tone isn't as easily transmitted as the words themelves.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

As for homosexuality it was used majorly with Loras and Renly to example an issue within society (which was homophobia) which still exists today. I mean Renly and Loras are presented as manly men. Renly a fan of hunting and wines, Loras an anointed knight and champion fighter, they dont exactly come across as the standard 'camp' gay that hollywood loves to portray. Its simply an example of how beneath a social exterior they are forced to repress themselves because the world would never accept them. This is why there will never be a 'loud and proud' asoiaf couple nor will there be massive amount of homosexual characters. That doesnt mean there arent, there are fair few characters who experiment in the series as well as other gay characters. Obviously theres Dorne where its not taboo but the rest it would seem is. Not to mention the dornish been mocked for it. The whole thing is a statement in which George seems to say "The world aint fair". No George... No its not

I don't get the Renly and Loras example or what their "manliness" has anything to do with their sexual orientation. They are manly because they're raised in a way when they need to be strong and know how to fight. Renly isn't "campy" but it's hinted that he enjoys fashion and being well dressed, which is a gay stereotype. And Loras enjoys fighting like many young man nowadays enjoy having a nice car, either gay or straight.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

It was not an attempt at backhand, and it appears you understood exactly what i meant. Yet it has nothing to do with my real world political views either. In the real world I believe gay people should have all the same rights as anyone else. Love whoever you want, marry whoever you want, I see nothing wrong with it. I'm not the least bit religious even, so i have no hang-ups about it.

That said, I think its ok for me to say that it doesn't fit into the overall framework of the story. Martin's world IS NOT our world. Its not democratic, its feudal. Its bloodlines that matter when it comes to power. FOR GODS SAKE ITS NOT THE REAL WORLD!!

Too many times I think people feel guilty about having a logical viewpoint, just because they will be accused of not being PC. That is not me.

I'm not one of these "marriage can only be between a man and a woman" people. But the fact remains, when a story is about bloodline, sons/daughters, heirs, true borns, bastards, high borns, low borns.ect...these thing can only occur one way people! Its not said to diminish someone that is homosexual or their relationship. Its not right or wrong, it just is.

Take it up with evolution, not me.

And as to this....

In all honestly, I'm not ALL THAT INTERESTED to continue this with you, especially on an ASOIAF board. But, you threw out the progressive tag, you shouldn't be surprised if someone throws something back in kind. As far as evolution and bloodlines, real and in this particular story, I'm not seeing a big problem with maintaining population. It's a copout, there is plenty of birthin of babies in both universes, real and imagined.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I think you are exactly right. I am willing to believe, however, that the poster you refer has no idea that this is what the post is doing. Expect a strong response (perhaps openly angry) in short order!

LOL, silly me, I went and dealt with a bit of real life when the response came in. I do hate labels, both the progressive and conservative ones, to be honest. I'm sure many of us fit into a category, but people and political beliefs are usually much more complex than those two labels imply.

[TheWitch]

I don't want to impose a checklist on things to add at all, don't get me wrong. More for world building. Like I said whatever Martin does is cool with me, he's already added gay people and black people so he's already ticked the box. But more is never a bad thing, as long as it's done well and not done for the sake of it. Like you said, it's his art.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Which is why these sort of posts should not exist, it will just turn into a political/social fight that has nothing to do with the books. I haven't read all of the posts, but this series is loved by all transgressing all party lines, social lines, etc. Christians, Jews, Muslims, atheists, conservatives, liberals, etc all read this books. It would be erroneous to believe everyone on here has the same exact views of the world, posting stuff like this only creates problems. Now I doubt the OP wanted to cause issues, but they will inevitably take shape quickly.

I am Christian as so many others who read these books, and I personally don't have a problem with Martin's take on sexuality in the books except one. Actually let me rephrase, I have a problem with Martin's understanding of history. He, like many people, get their history through popular historical works.....which to say the least is generally garbage. That is what happens when bookshops sell predominately work done by non-professional historians.....Alison Wier.....where is my puke bag.... If Martin isn't downright incorrect, he is slightly anachronistic and wants things to be that actually were not. Or he misunderstands certain aspects. I am not going to list all of his blunders, and I certainly respect that he is not a historian, albeit a fan of history, so one cannot expect him to be spot on. BUT that has nothing to do with the novel, he only needs a superficial understanding for his purpose. My gripe is based on things he has said in interviews.... so it is not important. But in regards to the sexuality of aSoIaF, I don't see why we should be searching for closet gays, or closet Targs, or Hodor's lost children or anything like that.

Talking about all the different people that read these books brings me to just reflect on this; I love meeting people from all over on boards like this. In some ways, it's the closest I'll probably ever come to travelling the whole wide world. Everything winds up getting speculated on, that's the thing, and as usual, I step in it when people try to boss other people around. It is one of my pet peeves, LOL, and gets me into no end of trouble. I'm not meaning you, with the bossing around, but sometimes many here mask that proclivatity in these type of debates. With that, I think I'm outta this thread before I get myself in trouble.

[Cas Stark]

I don't want to impose a checklist on things to add at all, don't get me wrong. More for world building. Like I said whatever Martin does is cool with me, he's already added gay people and black people so he's already ticked the box. But more is never a bad thing, as long as it's done well and not done for the sake of it. Like you said, it's his art.

I liked that he made Renly gay and you saw hints of various types of reactions to it in the text...I thought he could have done more with this aspect, and so could HBO, in terms of him being an "outsider" on the inside and how this helped him relate to all classes of people...as he was written to do and do well. But, Martin isn't really telling a story about romantic love or even sexuality, but power.

[Collis]

Which does not necessarily preclude that Satin is a girl. It's not unheard of for women to have mustaches, so I'm pretty sure women can grow beards if they really wanted to, the phrase "bearded lady" comes to mind. I'm not 100% certain, but I think if a woman decided to start shaving their face they would eventually grow a beard the way a man does.

Although I doubt whether Satin is a girl.

IIRC, Hoster tried to marry the Blackfish off, but he flatly refused. Now I never read that he was gay into that, but when I saw a comment to that effect (I think in the Shipping thread), I was like 'that makes sense'. Doesn't bother me one way or the other.

Any why can't a hetero character make a comment about the looks or appearance of a character of the same gender? I'm a straight woman, and I can recognise beauty in women without it being more than that.

Apologies if that was feeding a troll. I sometimes find it hard to tell.

Pertaining to the "I think ASOIAF needs more straight characters, ambiguity is just messing with my head and hetero characters should have zero comments on the appearance of any other character of the same gender. Every time they reference a person of the other gender they should do so wholly in the context of having sex with them. Storylines and descriptions of characters have no place in my ASOIAF Smut!" I was just being facetious. This whole discussion is pointless, silly, and rather detracting from substance in the material. The jist of what I was thinking is, if you want to read about straight or gay romance, buy a freaking romance novel and stop imposing in a different genre. The book doesn't need more straight or gay characters, hell, it doesn't need more characters--just what Martin wants in it. I find it aggravating that you can't have a written passage saying something innocuous about someone of the same gender without a small group going, "OH MY GOD THEY ARE GAY/BI/TRANS/GENDERCONFUSED/QUEER/BESTIALITY LOVING/ANY WEIRD WORD WE WANT TO THINK UP HERE." Just leave it alone people.

Now on to more serious threads. How long is Victarion's Penis?

[mormont]

Which world do you say im not seeing?? I'm commenting on GRRM's world, not our real world. Those things are the burning questions and mysteries of the story. While Love and Sexuality can and do obviously result from a relationship between a man & man, and woman & woman, the prince that was promised, a child born admist salt and smoke, a true born heir ect...will certainly not be the result.

So what?

Nobody suggested that they would. But while these things are a big part of the story, there are other, equally important parts of the story that have nothing to do with procreation, but have plenty to do with love. And love is what we're discussing.

That said, I think its ok for me to say that it doesn't fit into the overall framework of the story. Martin's world IS NOT our world. Its not democratic, its feudal. Its bloodlines that matter when it comes to power. FOR GODS SAKE ITS NOT THE REAL WORLD!!

I'm sorry, but I can't parse 'For God's sake it's not the real world' (with or without punctuation and/or capitalisation) in any way that leads to the conclusion that there is somehow less reason to include gay characters in a work of fiction than there would be in (say) a work of real-world history.

Unless you're suggesting that, for some reason, homosexuality is actually less common in this particular fictional world than it is in the real world. But I can't even begin to imagine any sort of reason to think that.

Too many times I think people feel guilty about having a logical viewpoint, just because they will be accused of not being PC. That is not me.

It would seem not, since I'm afraid you don't appear to have a logical viewpoint.

I mean, your argument is 'homosexuality doesn't fit in the framework of the story', despite the fact that there are in fact homosexual (and bisexual) characters in the story.

Take it up with evolution, not me.

Has evolution made gay people incapable of procreation?

[TheWitch]

No, it's not a romance novel but sex and romance is important to the novel. If you don't see that frankly I think we've read different story. Asoiaf is about many things and humanity isn't one of them. If the books was to have three moments where straight characters where having sex or thinking about sex would that be a distraction, or just when gay people do it?

[Collis]

7 Shades of Ice and Fire.......

Starring... The Maid, The Warrior, The Father, the Mother, the Smith, the Crone, and the Stranger...

The Warrior and his Long Sword, the Father proves who really is daddy, the Mother nurtures with sexual healing, the Smith will bring the hammer, the Crone requires her due, the Maid loses her innocence, and the Stranger for some extra kink...

[George48]

Finally! A king I can root for!

Hello comrade, I am here to talk to you about Stannis the saviour of the Fatherland.

Here's some quotes: "They'll bend the knee or I'll destroy them"

"Every man shall reap what he has sown,from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat."

Support the rightful king in any way you can!

Ok now that the joke is over I please ask everyone to stop arguing. (OP, you can quote this)

This is reaching Facebook levels, let's not bring it to Youtube comment sections or worse... Tumblr ( oh look an other joke... har har)

No seriosly, it's getting out of controll.

[Collis]

No, it's not a romance novel but sex and romance is important to the novel. If you don't see that frankly I think we've read different story. Asoiaf is about many things and humanity isn't one of them. If the books was to have three moments where straight characters where having sex or thinking about sex would that be a distraction, or just when gay people do it?

You are saying sex and romance are important. Yes, it does impact the decisions they make and thus the story. If it is just an imposition by a reader going, "oh he thought the boy was pretty," with no implication, it isn't. Ultimately, we won't find out until all the books are out if it is important, but I doubt Jon saying Jaime looked like a king should and prettier than his sister is going to have ANY impact on the story.

[TheWitch]

I just said again again the Jon satin thing was a silly theory that I would like but doubt would happen. Please use a different argument.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

No, it's not a romance novel but sex and romance is important to the novel. If you don't see that frankly I think we've read different story. Asoiaf is about many things and humanity isn't one of them. If the books was to have three moments where straight characters where having sex or thinking about sex would that be a distraction, or just when gay people do it?

We've just got a gay POV so far and we'll have more in the next book. Renly wasn't a POV neither was Loras, so, we don't know what Loras thought about being gay and his secrecy about that could be also read as him being a reserved person, not shame.

Connington doesn't feel remotely ashamed about being gay, or that he must live in secrecy. His remorse comes from having failed to Rhaegar, when he wanted to prove and gain his love. And that is a quite strange phrase, now I think about it because, how he expected to gain his love? Rhaegar was not going to marry him nor even take him as a paramour. He already had his favour. I wonder what else was he expecting from Rhaegar, who as far as we know, is heterosexual. Maybe, as he said, he expected too much, but when he reflects on that, he doesn't chastise himself for loving a male, only for having failed to him and cause his death.

And beyond that, while it's not implied, there is a small chance that he and Myles Toyne could have had a small affair, or at least, a casual sexual encounter at some point. It is obvious that he considered him more than a friend. If is indeed true, then no one actually care in the Golden Company, because Myles was their beloved and respected leader and Connington was able to raise high very fast.

As for the opinion of Westeros about homosexuality, it's still pretty vague, but at least we haven't seen a big oposition from people about Renly being a gay King. Funny enough, we do have that in our times, when in many places, a gay leader is still seen as something that should be taken down. People makes fun of Renly and Loras? Yeah, but none of the mocks (as far as I remember) is to turn them down in their abilities to rule or fight, simply a laugh for the sake of a laugh, pretty much like when we make fun of those two friends who are secretly dating although everybody knows and we play along: "yeah, praying... that's what they're doing". Another thing to notice is that while HBO states very obvious that Oberyn is bisexual, the books said nothing about that and the only negative connotation about his sexuality comes from Jaime and he said of him that he beds "boys". Not men, but boys. I guess that bedding younger men is a greater taboo in Westeros than bedding men like it's in our world, so, that's when the bad reputation comes from. Yet, the only "boy" we know Oberyn could have bedded was his own squire, and it's only a rumour.