Sympathy for the devil : Jaime Lannister

[Roxy Carmichael]

misogyny

Oh I don't know about that. Jaime is funny and charismatic, Dany isn't. Besides, even if you don't particularly like Jaime, which is understandable, he has far fewer chapters in the series than she does. If you don't like Dany as a character, or find her chapters boring... well, you've got a heck of a lot to wade through.

[jaimecersei]

lmao i just can't

of course not every single person who dislikes dany is a misogynist. jfc. way to miss the point. between this, and that user saying that its okay for jaime to think cersei is a whore and knock her teeth off because she "cheated" on him is just too much for me.

[Mladen]

lmao i just can't

of course not every single person who dislikes dany is a misogynist. jfc. way to miss the point. between this, and that user saying that its okay for jaime to think cersei is a whore and knock her teeth off because she "cheated" on him is just too much for me.

I didn't miss the point, you did... Dany names appear, and here is misogyny argument... You gave such short response to rather complicated question and you are wondering why people assume that you are making broad generalizations?

[Lady Fevre Dream]

lmao i just can't

of course not every single person who dislikes dany is a misogynist. jfc. way to miss the point. between this, and that user saying that its okay for jaime to think cersei is a whore and knock her teeth off because she "cheated" on him is just too much for me.

You do realize it's okay for Jaime to have those type of feelings as long as he doesn't act on them, don't you? He is allowed to think she's a whore, he could even call her one, but as long as he doesn't try to knock her teeth out, I don't see the problem. Maybe calling her a whore wouldn't be that nice, but it's hard to find a polite word for two or three timing bitch, isn't it? Too bad The Blue Bard's teeth didn't merit all this protection, huh?

[Roxy Carmichael]

lmao i just can't

of course not every single person who dislikes dany is a misogynist. jfc. way to miss the point. between this, and that user saying that its okay for jaime to think cersei is a whore and knock her teeth off because she "cheated" on him is just too much for me.

Then why did you give "misogyny" as your only answer when somebody asked why Jaime is let off the hook more than Dany?

If you don't want people to misunderstand you, then write more eloquent posts.

[jaimecersei]

I didn't miss the point, you did... Dany names appear, and here is misogyny argument... You gave such short response to rather complicated question and you are wondering why people assume that you are making broad generalizations?

well thats just my opinion dude. i do think part of the reason why people can't empathize with flawed female characters like dany, cersei, and arya is misogyny to an extent. its no 100% misogyny of course, but i think thats the broad general reason. i mean i have a person replying to me and being soooooooooo deeply empathetic over jaime's disgusting violent thoughts about cersei because she "cheated" on him. without having a shred of empathy for cersei and realizing that for her in mind its not a "betrayal" because for her sex is more than just an act of lust and love. for her its similar to wielding power in the same way that jaime wields a sword. and its pretty damn clear from the narrative that GRRM doesn't agree with Jaime on this. and I have people giving me long ass blocks of text because how dare I say that Dany is a better person than Jaime and is more empathetic than him???

in general I've noticed that people are much more sympathetic to the male characters than the female characters and I do think that misogyny is a factor here. You don't have to agree with me but in my opinion it just is. and it always will be imo. whether its 2012 or 2014

[jaimecersei]

Then why did you give "misogyny" as your only answer when somebody asked why Jaime is let off the hook more than Dany?

If you don't want people to misunderstand you, then write more eloquent posts.

I believe that its the most general reason.

[jaimecersei]

You do realize it's okay for Jaime to have those type of feelings as long as he doesn't act on them, don't you? He is allowed to think she's a whore, he could even call her one, but as long as he doesn't try to knock her teeth out, I don't see the problem. Maybe calling her a whore wouldn't be that nice, but it's hard to find a polite word for two or three timing bitch, isn't it? Too bad The Blue Bard's teeth didn't merit all this protection, huh?

what kind of logic is this??? so its okay to have gross violent thoughts and beliefs as long as you don't act them? lol ok then. and yeah because jaime is such a fucking saint himself.

[Cas Stark]

LOL, it's probably as simple as the fact that Jamie starts out completely unsympathetic and then gets better. Dany starts out completely sympathetic and then gets worse. Not brain surgery.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

did you even read my post? i recognized that jaime feels empathy but only for a few people. and that its limited. the whole point i was trying to make is that compared to dany, jaime doesnt even come close in the empathy department. dany is 500 x more empathetic than jaime will ever be.

There is not a measure for empathy. That doesn't make her a "better" person than Jaime, who is around 36 and has faced things Dany hasn't. Dany is more empathetic to others because, let's be honest, she's inexperienced in life. She still sees people in black or white: "bad slaver" and "good slave". World doesn't work like that and Jaime knows it.

i'm well aware that Cersei is an immoral POS and lacks empathy. hell her villainy is actually part of the appeal of her character for me. my post had nothing to do with cersei.

Well, for many people, Jaime's ambiguity is part of his appeal.

dany is a much better and empathetic person than jaime. and she's had it way harder than him too, 100% of the woman have. that is a fact.

You're victimizing women with this, and in Westeros, like middle times, it wasn't right. Among the common folk, men and women are in equal danger. Women are raped and men are dragged to a war they don't want to get involved and died. They all starve the same when winter and war comes and they worked the same.

the jaime stans here are too much.

We could say the same about Cersei's, right? Because Cersei loves to play victim and people like to believe her.

Cersei is an endless complain about how her sexual life is terrible, many Cersei defenders seem to define Cersei for her failed marriage and her sexuality. There is no discussion of how she's a terrible ruler, person, mother. Cersei is a victim because she was married to a man she didn't want, what about the other women in Westeros (and real middle ages) who are also married to men they didn't want but nevertheless were capable rulers, good mothers and functional people? Are they victims too? Cersei blames everything wrong that happens to her to her being a woman because that's very easy. I also could say the same: everything wrong in my life is because I'm a woman! But there are very successful women in my community, with the same limitations I've found. What was their excuse? Funny thing is when Aegon dismiss her as "a woman", is a man of the GC saying "she's a Lannister woman". Had Cersei being a better ruler, he would be completely right.

One mention of Dany and this appears... Jesus, do people have or feel the need for any other argument? Has anyone actually occurred that Dany gets some well-founded criticism? That not every criticism of Dany is misogyny...

I've said it before. It's like the Godwin's law of ASOIAF. It's the last argument possible when everything else fails: misogyny, sexism, agency, and... dunno.

Let's call it the JCRB's law.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

what kind of logic is this??? so its okay to have gross violent thoughts and beliefs as long as you don't act them? lol ok then. and yeah because jaime is such a fucking saint himself.

So, you never have bad thoughts about anyone?

You must be a saint.

[jaimecersei]

lmao @ the posts above me. thanks for proving my point XOXOXO

[Mladen]

well thats just my opinion dude.

I believe that its the most general reason.

And that is something we can't discuss, nor is this place for that... But, you did made, now twice, the general statement about criticism female characters have. As someone who spends most his time here discussing female characters, I can say that these claims are counter-productive and in many cases, wrong. But, as I said, this is not place for this... We can continue over PM if you like. Apologies to OP for derailment.

I've said it before. It's like the Godwin's law of ASOIAF. It's the last argument possible when everything else fails: misogyny, sexism, agency, and... dunno.

Let's call it the JCRB's law.

Sorry, my friend... We have already Boardology law about this... It is one of the strongest Boradology laws around here.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

what kind of logic is this??? so its okay to have gross violent thoughts and beliefs as long as you don't act them? lol ok then. and yeah because jaime is such a fucking saint himself.

Actually, yeah it is. I can't count how many times I've had the thought "I could kill you" about my husband, but you know what......he's outside grilling me steak and he's fine. Pretty sure I won't be killing him, pretty sure......I've said quite some horrible things to him, not just thought them, pretty sure.....we are normal people, LOL

[Lady Fevre Dream]

So, you never have bad thoughts about anyone?

You must be a saint.

Dear Lord, I never knew I was supposed to be censoring my own brain and the thoughts it has along with my actions. I better go, hubby might kill me if I leave him with my mom and aunt too long. He has said so, should I call the cops? :dunno: LOL

[Roxy Carmichael]

I believe that its the most general reason.

I disagree.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Dear Lord, I never knew I was supposed to be censoring my own brain and the thoughts it has along with my actions. I better go, hubby might kill me if I leave him with my mom and aunt too long. He has said so, should I call the cops? :dunno: LOL

I have an elaborate plan to exterminate an ex-friend of mine who lives in another country. Involves me getting involved in politics, closing board, immigration laws and invade the country... I guess I should be in jail labelled as a terrorist :lol:

Sorry, my friend... We have already Boardology law about this... It is one of the strongest Boradology laws around here.

Found it...

"Cersei's Law of Feminism:

Discussing Cersei in general is a tricky thing to do, but discussing her as a feminist figure will doom a thread without fail".

LOL, still looking for something about misogyny. I might have a chance.

[jaimecersei]

I disagree.

well fucking enlighten me then?? a young girl who lost her mother, had to run from one place to another, lived in poverty in her childhood... who was essentially sold as a slave by her abusive brother to a man who raped her and abused her. a girl who lost her firstborn child, who believes that she can never have any actual children of her own. who desperately wants to do the right thing and have her people love her, and be a good ruler and be a good person but makes mistakes along the way because she's YOUNG and is learning more about the world is less sympathized by the people on this board than a man who was the golden boy of tywin fucking lannister, raised in the most powerful and richest family in westeros, could make his own choices in life, had agency, had autonomy, fucked his sister and impregnated her and tried to murder an innocent child,. but OH because he's trying to become a better person, and saved brienne from a better and calling his evil sister a "whore", its all ok.

lol ok then

[AlliYoyo]

personally i think its exteremely hypocritical how so many people have so much sympathy for jaime but none for theon

I never liked Theon. I thought he was an idiot from the get go. That said, I do recognise that he felt caught between a rock and a hard place when he finally went back to the Iron Islands and the reality waiting for him there. That does not excuse the clusterfuck that was his Winterfell occupation and the murder of the miller's boys. Up to that point in the narrative, no I didn't have much sympathy for Theon.

However, not even Theon deserved the torture and psychological deconstruction that Ramsay put him through. So I do have sympathy for him for that.

As for Jaime, I never hated him. I didn't like it when he pushed Bran threw the window (and I could see that that was for Cersei's sake rather than his -- I suspect that if she wasn't all "He saw us" there might have been a different outcome), and yes, he acted like an idiot having Jory Cassel and Ned's men killed over Tyrion's abduction; but I have sympathy for him because there is a shift in his thinking and behaviour over the course of the books and I see a general desire to change,

[jaimecersei]

I never liked Theon. I thought he was an idiot from the get go. That said, I do recognise that he felt caught between a rock and a hard place when he finally went back to the Iron Islands and the reality waiting for him there. That does not excuse the clusterfuck that was his Winterfell occupation and the murder of the miller's boys. Up to that point in the narrative, no I didn't have much sympathy for Theon.

However, not even Theon deserved the torture and psychological deconstruction that Ramsay put him through. So I do have sympathy for him for that.

As for Jaime, I never hated him. I didn't like it when he pushed Bran threw the window (and I could see that that was for Cersei's sake rather than his -- I suspect that if she wasn't all "He saw us" there might have been a different outcome), and yes, he acted like an idiot having Jory Cassel and Ned's men killed over Tyrion's abduction; but I have sympathy for him because there is a shift in his thinking and behaviour over the course of the books and I see a general desire to change,

well pushing bran out the window was definitely for his own sake to an extent. jaime himself could get executed for impregnating the queen. it wasn't just for cersei, he was saving his own ass as well. "he saw is" is just a basic fact.