Sympathy for the devil : Jaime Lannister

[Lord Damian]

Jaime has a lot to make amends for and to.

[Mal Malenkirk]

So does pretty much every single character in the serie by this point.

[TheCasualObserver]

So does pretty much every single character in the serie by this point.

I think Davos and Brienne are probably still okay...

[Mal Malenkirk]

True. Davos especially. Brienne is about to get a lesson in conflicting obligations/loyalties, curious to see how she handles it.

[jaimecersei]

There is a ton more sympathy for Jaime Lannister on this forum than there is for Daenerys Targaryen. It may be interesting to speculate why.

misogyny

[Fat Mac]

Some have sympathy for Tywin, Roose and Ramsay, who are way more rotten than Jaime is. Jaime, like I said about Victarion in some other thread, has standards: having standards and moral objections prove you're not a monster. Just to name one, he was not only horrified of Aerys raping Rhaella but actually ordered a rapist to be beheaded after he tried to molest Pia, some commoner girl. That's what's interesting about Jaime: we first saw his "evil" side and then, we met the real man and we wondered why a man who is so different than his father is capable of have been so blind about Cersei and did all the wrong things for her?

No one justifies the attempt of murder Bran, we all know what he did is not something we can forgive and forget, but that doesn't make him irredeemable: even murderers repent in modern days.

I agree. If Jaime was irredeemable, what the fuck has been the point of his character arc so far?

[jaimecersei]

personally i think its exteremely hypocritical how so many people have so much sympathy for jaime but none for theon

[HairGrowsBack]

misogyny

heh pretty much

I like Jaime better than Dany, but there's no denying she's overall a better person than he is.

[BearQueen87]

Ah, Jamie.

I can only give my own persona view on him so here goes. For the first two books, I really disliked him. He was arrogant and privileged and he pushed Bran out of a window. He was an Oathbraker, part of the incest dynamic duo, and, IMO, mostly just a more-bad-than-good-guy.

Things started to change for me when I read Cat's final chapter in aCoK. When Jamie gets drunk and begins to spill his guts in the jail cell about certain things, I saw him in a new light. It wasn't positive but it wasn't negative either. I was genuinely shocked that Jamie has always been faithful to Cersei. And then you get into ASOS and AFFC and, once inside his head, you see how conflicted he is over those decisions that now define him--like being the Kingslayer. I think his redemptive arc isn't about some happily ever after but about finding a measure of peace and self-forgiveness over the acts he's committed. He is a very gray character. He's handsome, charismatic, charming, funny, and loyal to those he feels deserves it. But he's also broken vows and killed.

As far as why Jamie gets more sympathy than Dany...I think it's because he's in a relatively lower power position. He's still just a knight (a great fighter, of course, but still a knight) whereas she's the Queen. The actions she takes have larger consequences for more people. Killing Aerys broke Jamie's KG vow but also saved the residents of KL; the real consequence of killing Aerys is how people view Jamie now and how Jamie views himself. Dany freeing the slaves in Slaver's Bay freed thousands from an inhuman practice, but it also turned the cultural world of Slaver's Bay on its head, gave rise to the Sons of the Harpy who killed more people, left many hungry and destitute, and resulted in some pretty nasty wars with Yunkai and Astapor. And I say this as someone who LOVES Dany, but only LIKES Jamie. If Dany's actions only resulted in internal conflict over whether or not she was a good queen and not in the mess that is Slaver's Bay, then maybe more would be sympathetic to her.

And yes, there may be an element of misogyny at play, though I won't blanket all anti-Dany sentiments as such.

[jaimecersei]

Ah, Jamie.

I can only give my own persona view on him so here goes. For the first two books, I really disliked him. He was arrogant and privileged and he pushed Bran out of a window. He was an Oathbraker, part of the incest dynamic duo, and, IMO, mostly just a more-bad-than-good-guy.

Things started to change for me when I read Cat's final chapter in aCoK. When Jamie gets drunk and begins to spill his guts in the jail cell about certain things, I saw him in a new light. It wasn't positive but it wasn't negative either. I was genuinely shocked that Jamie has always been faithful to Cersei. And then you get into ASOS and AFFC and, once inside his head, you see how conflicted he is over those decisions that now define him--like being the Kingslayer. I think his redemptive arc isn't about some happily ever after but about finding a measure of peace and self-forgiveness over the acts he's committed. He is a very gray character. He's handsome, charismatic, charming, funny, and loyal to those he feels deserves it. But he's also broken vows and killed.

As far as why Jamie gets more sympathy than Dany...I think it's because he's in a relatively lower power position. He's still just a knight (a great fighter, of course, but still a knight) whereas she's the Queen. The actions she takes have larger consequences for more people. Killing Aerys broke Jamie's KG vow but also saved the residents of KL; the real consequence of killing Aerys is how people view Jamie now and how Jamie views himself. Dany freeing the slaves in Slaver's Bay freed thousands from an inhuman practice, but it also turned the cultural world of Slaver's Bay on its head, gave rise to the Sons of the Harpy who killed more people, left many hungry and destitute, and resulted in some pretty nasty wars with Yunkai and Astapor. And I say this as someone who LOVES Dany, but only LIKES Jamie. If Dany's actions only resulted in internal conflict over whether or not she was a good queen and not in the mess that is Slaver's Bay, then maybe more would be sympathetic to her.

And yes, there may be an element of misogyny at play, though I won't blanket all anti-Dany sentiments as such.

Jaime is my second favorite character in the BOOK series but ultimately he's just not a very empathetic person. and he's still an asshole. Believe it or not, but him dreaming about knocking Cersei's teeth and calling her a whore is NOT GOOD even though Cersei is a villain. Jaime has empathy for a very limited amount of people. Hell the first thing he thinks of when he sees Cersei while she's mourning the death of her firstborn child is "why is she not running in my arms, its always me who goes to her for sex". selfish much jaime?? also threatening to catapult babies isn't good either even if you don't 100% mean it.

Dany on the other hand is one of the most empathetic characters and is pretty much a kid who is trying so desperately to do the right thing. dany's fuck ups have to do with the fact that she sees the world in black and white and is empathetic to a fault.

the fact that people have more empathy and sympathy for jaime than dany is baffling to me. i like book!jaime more than dany too and i understand him and love him and do have empathy and sympathy for him but people everywhere just whitewash jaime which annoys me to no end.

[stateofdissipation]

Sympathy Understanding or affection arising from relationship or affinity.

Absolutely should have sympathy for Jamie Lannister

Sympathy A feeling or an expression of pity or sorrow for the distress of another; compassion or commiseration.

Absolutely should not have sympathy for Jamie Lannister.

“contronyms” are words that are their own antonym. Like "off" I turned the lights "off" vs The alarm went "off," In that example "off" means inactivated and activated. Sympathy can be seen as a contronym.

[Ingelheim]

Some have sympathy for Tywin, Roose and Ramsay, who are way more rotten than Jaime is. Jaime, like I said about Victarion in some other thread, has standards: having standards and moral objections prove you're not a monster. Just to name one, he was not only horrified of Aerys raping Rhaella but actually ordered a rapist to be beheaded after he tried to molest Pia, some commoner girl. That's what's interesting about Jaime: we first saw his "evil" side and then, we met the real man and we wondered why a man who is so different than his father is capable of have been so blind about Cersei and did all the wrong things for her?

No one justifies the attempt of murder Bran, we all know what he did is not something we can forgive and forget, but that doesn't make him irredeemable: even murderers repent in modern days.

This.

[oursisthefury69]

"I seldom fling children from towers to improve their health."

[No Song so Sweet]

Jamie fails constantly in human decency.

He is also an oathbreaker, and it is his own fault that he takes so many damn oaths. He could choose to not be a kingsguard or to abandon his family or to not sleep with his own sister.

Even so far as all these, I still give him kudos for trying to make himself better, but he has a reeaaaaaally long way to become even a decent person.

[sapphire_lion]

Jaime is my second favorite character in the BOOK series but ultimately he's just not a very empathetic person. and he's still an asshole.

Jaime does feel empathy, we've seen it in how he wanted to protect Rhaella, avenge Pia, and die alongside Brienne if need be. These three woman were being raped or threatened with rape and Jaime had a great deal of empathy towards them.

Heck, this is what he thought about Brienne when the Bloodly Mummers were about to gang rape her (and they were not on friendly terms at the time):

They will leave her a cripple too, but inside, where it does not show… He shouted, “SAPPHIRES,” as loudly as he could.

-ASOS

If you want to know what no empathy looks like, it looks like this:

Cersei did not intend to squander Tommen's strength playing wet nurse to sparrows, or guarding the wrinkled cunts of a thousand sour septas. Half of them are probably praying for a good raping.

-AFFC

Believe it or not, but him dreaming about knocking Cersei's teeth and calling her a whore is NOT GOOD even though Cersei is a villain. Jaime has empathy for a very limited amount of people.

Are the Thought Police about to make an arrest?

When it comes to infidelity, it is common for the wronged party to have hateful thoughts towards the person who cheated on them. How many times has a woman who’s been cheated on fantasized about castrating her husband? Having angry thoughts and dreams when you've been hurt is human nature. It is not the same as acting violently towards the person who wronged you. This is not proof that the person having those "bad" thoughts is unable to experience empathy.

Hell the first thing he thinks of when he sees Cersei while she's mourning the death of her firstborn child is "why is she not running in my arms, its always me who goes to her for sex". selfish much jaime??

Damn, the Thought Police are relentless today. “She gives, but I must ask.” is a thought that enters Jaime’s head when he recognizes how one-sided his relationship with Cersei is. That’s just Jaime recognizing an obvious fact.

Cersei “loved” Jaime as an extension of herself and as her tool. She was constantly manipulating him, lying to him, using him, and cheating on him. Once he no longer did her bidding, she became physically and emotionally abusive towards him. This was not a positive relationship. Jaime recognizing this fact is about as selfish as recognizing that the sky is blue.

also threatening to catapult babies isn't good either even if you don't 100% mean it.

Jaime threatened to catapult a baby in the hopes that the threat would compel the baby's father to surrender peacefully and thus no one would have to die (including the baby). Even if it was a reprehensible thing to do, Jaime still did it with the hope that it would prevent a greater loss of life. This is different than say, having multiple babies and children slaughtered out of spite, like what Cersei did to Robert's kids.

Jaime is an asshole. He’s a bitter, cynical man, who went through a period of moral bankruptcy and has done some terrible deeds. However, he is capable of empathy and he is aware of the error of his ways (even if he has yet to get on the right track).

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Jaime does feel empathy, we've seen it in how he wanted to protect Rhaella, avenge Pia, and die alongside Brienne if need be. These three woman were being raped or threatened with rape and Jaime had a great deal of empathy towards them.

Heck, this is what he thought about Brienne when the Bloodly Mummers were about to gang rape her (and they were not on friendly terms at the time):

If you want to know what no empathy looks like, it looks like this:

Are the Thought Police about to make an arrest?

When it comes to infidelity, it is common for the wronged party to have hateful thoughts towards the person who cheated on them. How many times has a woman who’s been cheated on fantasized about castrating her husband? Having angry thoughts and dreams when you've been hurt is human nature. It is not the same as acting violently towards the person who wronged you. This is not proof that the person having those "bad" thoughts is unable to experience empathy.

Damn, the Thought Police are relentless today. “She gives, but I must ask.” is a thought that enters Jaime’s head when he recognizes how one-sided his relationship with Cersei is. That’s just Jaime recognizing an obvious fact.

Cersei “loved” Jaime as an extension of herself and as her tool. She was constantly manipulating him, lying to him, using him, and cheating on him. Once he no longer did her bidding, she became physically and emotionally abusive towards him. This was not a positive relationship. Jaime recognizing this fact is about as selfish as recognizing that the sky is blue.

Jaime threatened to catapult a baby in the hopes that the threat would compel the baby's father to surrender peacefully and thus no one would have to die (including the baby). Even if it was a reprehensible thing to do, Jaime still did it with the hope that it would prevent a greater loss of life. This is different than say, having multiple babies and children slaughtered out of spite, like what Cersei did to Robert's kids.

Jaime is an asshole. He’s a bitter, cynical man, who went through a period of moral bankruptcy and has done some terrible deeds. However, he is capable of empathy and he is aware of the error of his ways (even if he has yet to get on the right track).

A perfectly sensible and reasonable post. Thank you for that, saves me from the diatribe I wanted to unleash. Sometimes, this board scares me, LOL

[jaimecersei]

Jaime does feel empathy, we've seen it in how he wanted to protect Rhaella, avenge Pia, and die alongside Brienne if need be. These three woman were being raped or threatened with rape and Jaime had a great deal of empathy towards them.

Heck, this is what he thought about Brienne when the Bloodly Mummers were about to gang rape her (and they were not on friendly terms at the time):

If you want to know what no empathy looks like, it looks like this:

Are the Thought Police about to make an arrest?

When it comes to infidelity, it is common for the wronged party to have hateful thoughts towards the person who cheated on them. How many times has a woman who’s been cheated on fantasized about castrating her husband? Having angry thoughts and dreams when you've been hurt is human nature. It is not the same as acting violently towards the person who wronged you. This is not proof that the person having those "bad" thoughts is unable to experience empathy.

Damn, the Thought Police are relentless today. “She gives, but I must ask.” is a thought that enters Jaime’s head when he recognizes how one-sided his relationship with Cersei is. That’s just Jaime recognizing an obvious fact.

Cersei “loved” Jaime as an extension of herself and as her tool. She was constantly manipulating him, lying to him, using him, and cheating on him. Once he no longer did her bidding, she became physically and emotionally abusive towards him. This was not a positive relationship. Jaime recognizing this fact is about as selfish as recognizing that the sky is blue.

Jaime threatened to catapult a baby in the hopes that the threat would compel the baby's father to surrender peacefully and thus no one would have to die (including the baby). Even if it was a reprehensible thing to do, Jaime still did it with the hope that it would prevent a greater loss of life. This is different than say, having multiple babies and children slaughtered out of spite, like what Cersei did to Robert's kids.

Jaime is an asshole. He’s a bitter, cynical man, who went through a period of moral bankruptcy and has done some terrible deeds. However, he is capable of empathy and he is aware of the error of his ways (even if he has yet to get on the right track).

did you even read my post? i recognized that jaime feels empathy but only for a few people. and that its limited. the whole point i was trying to make is that compared to dany, jaime doesnt even come close in the empathy department. dany is 500 x more empathetic than jaime will ever be.

i'm well aware that Cersei is an immoral POS and lacks empathy. hell her villainy is actually part of the appeal of her character for me. my post had nothing to do with cersei.

dany is a much better and empathetic person than jaime. and she's had it way harder than him too, 100% of the woman have. that is a fact.

the jaime stans here are too much.

and personally i thought it was gross that jaime had "she gives me sex, but i must ask her for it" while she's crying over her dead son. its fine if you don't agree with it, but its just my opinion.

[Mladen]

misogyny

One mention of Dany and this appears... Jesus, do people have or feel the need for any other argument? Has anyone actually occurred that Dany gets some well-founded criticism? That not every criticism of Dany is misogyny...

heh pretty much

I like Jaime better than Dany, but there's no denying she's overall a better person than he is.

Well, I would agree that she is one shade whiter than he is, but using misogyny argument whenever Dany name appears is so autumn/winter 2012/13...

[Woman of War]

What he does with Pia is not redemption. It is an honorable act, a path that he sets for himself, to basically try to achieve what he once dreamed of. People in Riverrun have nothing to thank to Jaime, who, btw, threatened to catapult a child if he doesn't get what he wanted. Simply, just as the demonizing Jaime is wrong, whitewashing is too.

...

And what could be described as "redemption" as opposed to "a path he sets for himself"?

I am not trying to get polemic, I seriously have trouble with the whole idea of redemption since there seem to coexist a hundred different definitions.

Does a character consciously and explicitely have to regret what he did, and as soon as he is honestly aware of the wrongness of his deed and says "sorry" he is already redeemed? Would not be of much help to those he harmed. Or do you have to try to undo your deed in a very practical manner, to make up for it and to seriously help the people you harmed? Atonement? Would not be of much help if you killed someone, you cannot repay for a life.

Actually trying to find "a path for yourself" seems to be a very constructive way to deal wth a dark past since it promises that you could make a difference in the future. After all saying sorry is no more than a nice gesture and no redemption can wake up any dead (or make Bran walk).

And about which kind of redemption are we talking?

Redemption in the eyes of us readers - an idea of redemption that may be very different from the idea of Jaime's co-Westerosi?

Being worthy of getting a potential "redemption arc" by the author? Getting granted redemption in the end how? By a karmic death? a happy ending?

Even within Christian philosophical approaches there are serious differences what makes redemption valid. Practical atonement? Regret and asking God for forgiveness is enough while making up for the damage you did to other people is unneceesary as long as you tell God your story?

So are we as readers in the position of God here and the character has to confess to us via POV and crawl in moral mud at our feet before we as readers deem him worthy of getting GRRM's forgiveness and his "redemption arc" is valid?

Or does he simply have to do the right thing in the future so his past will be forgiven and he or she counts as "redeemed"?

Sorry, but what is "redemption"?

[Mladen]

And what could be described as "redemption" as opposed to "a path he sets for himself"?

I am not trying to get polemic, I seriously have trouble with the whole idea of redemption since there seem to coexist a hundred different definitions.

Does a character consciously and explicitely have to regret what he did, and as soon as he is honestly aware of the wrongness of his deed and says "sorry" he is already redeemed? Would not be of much help to those he harmed. Or do you have to try to undo your deed in a very practical manner, to make up for it and to seriously help the people you harmed? Atonement? Would not be of much help if you killed someone, you cannot repay for a life.

Actually trying to find "a path for yourself" seems to be a very constructive way to deal wth a dark past since it promises that you could make a difference in the future. After all saying sorry is no more than a nice gesture and no redemption can wake up any dead (or make Bran walk).

And about which kind of redemption are we talking?

Redemption in the eyes of us readers - an idea of redemption that may be very different from the idea of Jaime's co-Westerosi?

Being worthy of getting a potential "redemption arc" by the author? Getting granted redemption in the end how? By a karmic death? a happy ending?

Even within Christian philosophical approaches there are serious differences what makes redemption valid. Practical atonement? Regret and asking God for forgiveness is enough while making up for the damage you did to other people is unneceesary as long as you tell God your story?

So are we as readers in the position of God here and the character has to confess to us via POV and crawl in moral mud at our feet before we as readers deem him worthy of getting GRRM's forgiveness and his "redemption arc" is valid?

Or does he simply have to do the right thing in the future so his past will be forgiven and he or she counts as "redeemed"?

Sorry, but what is "redemption"?

Generally, I hate discussion on the semantic level, especially when it comes to the words in the language that is not my native, and on top of that, have more than one meaning.

For me, the redemption arc, especially for someone like Jaime, who has some sins to atone for, entails some sort of "paying the due". I don't believe that there is karmic justice in ASOIAF, and that Jaime losing his hand was him paying for trying to kill Bran. Also, redemption would entail some sort of regret, denouncement of the past actions. We see none of those in Jaime's path. He does try to be a better man, and even though he hits a bump like threatening to catapult baby, he is more or less successful. But, when person like Jaime, who doesn't confront with what he has done and who doesn't even regret the malice he did, plus continues with some old ways, we have little to talk about in terms of redemption arc. I believe that his journey is an attempt to create "tabula rasa" at certain point of his life, and to fill the pages with the content he wants. But the fact is that you can't just press delete button on your life. Your past defines someone as much as his future does. And Jaime had some ghosts of past he hasn't confronted yet. And he is moving on... Or, to be more precise, he is turning a new page which he will write as he sees fit.

Now, if we are going semantically about this, Jaime is on some sort of redemption road where he is cleansing some evil off of him, like rejecting Cersei. But, my concerns about this is that, no matter how positively I think about him, is the fact that he just moved on, because well, he could. He was given that chance, because he wasn't called to answer for what he has done (and, TBH, I am focusing mostly on Bran at the moment). Overall, it is understanding. That position is very humane and deeply applicable perhaps to most of us. Perhaps, if I am in his position, I would do the same. But that still doesn't change the fact that the history can't be so easily deleted, that there is no "tabula rasa" in the middle of your life. So, "his redemption arc" is just attempt to be a better man on his own terms, skipping some very difficult steps.