Sympathy for the devil : Jaime Lannister

[Mal Malenkirk]

I never realized how polarizing the character was before reading this forum. Wow.

The opinions range from irredeemable scum (the Bran incident is unforgivable!) to potential candidate for Azor Ahai.

I'll try to be succinct as to why I like the guy in spit of his child-defenestrating ways. It comes down to an opinion that Jaime Lannister is by nature a fairly decent guy stuck in impossible situation (not to mention a crapshack world) and then to the fact he is a great example of one of the common theme of the saga; conflicting obligations.

In a case of nature vs nurture, I think Jaime is naturally a fairly decent guy caught in an impossible environment. Two main arguments: His love for Tyrion, his pariah of a brother, as well as his surprisingly modern stance on sexual abuse.

His love for Tyrion is far from a given by birth. Even though he is his brother, he has the example of his sister and father who overtly hate Tyrion and that of his entire culture that despises the lame and the infirm. If your youth is not too far removed, perhaps you remember how kids normally treat pariahs? Yeah, it's not pretty. So why does Jaime loves and protect his brother even though his entire world seems to believe he shouldn't? Because his natural big brother instincts proved stronger than what his environment was trying to teach him. And I find that very endearing. Nature won!

Same for his position toward sexual abuse. At fifteen he displayed a strong disapproval of Aerys basically raping his wife while he was on guard. That makes it about the only instance of a character expressing disapproval of marital rape. I'm sure others share this view but it's still Jaime who verbalize it. His execution of Pia's rapist is also one of the rare instance of a commander punishing a subordinate for that crime. Why is he leaning that way in that culture? As best I can tell, it's a natural disposition that survived his upbringing. He certainly did not learn that from Tywin-I-use-rape-as-a-weapon-of-war-and-to-teach-my-sons-a-lesson Lannister.

But no matter what his natural dispositions might be, Jaime is from Westeros. A strong theme of the saga is conflicting obligations.

He has obligations toward his father, who I suspect would score very high on the FBI psychopathy test.

He loves his sister who loves him back but in a flawed, narcissist way that puts harsh demands on him.

As a king's guard he had obligations toward Aerys, who was batshit crazy and also toward the queen who was victimized by the king so...

As Knight he has obligations toward civilians (protect the weak, women etc.) but both his father and king don't give a flying turd about it so...

It can't hold.

Eddard Stark is a character I like but let's face it, he had it easy in comparison when trying to keep his honour and vows. We suspect he was tested at the tower of joy but for the most part it was easy sailing until the day he got named hand of the king... and then he promptly got himself killed! If he had grown up in Jaime's environment he would have either become like Jaime or else would not have survived his teenage years (like his son, eh!) and therefore would not have managed to live long enough to have nice stories told about him.

Young Jaime seems to struggle with this juggling acts of conflicting vows, eventually killing Aerys and saving King's Landing but the aftermath leave him bitter and by the start of GoT he has basically said f*** it. Enough juggling. He's down to being loyal to his family (and secretly to Cersei above all others) and that's it. Less conflicts that way.

And that leads to him throwing Bran through the window. Protect the innocent or my sister? Sister. Sorry Bran, you fly. Very assholish but also understandable when you understand where he came from.

But then we have the redemption arc we are all familiar with, starting with the chopped hand and now he is back into trying to juggle the obligations as best he can. And that's awesome.

That leads to the Riverun siege. He has an oath to Catelyn not to fight the Tullys, an Oath to his king to obey and therefore fight the Tullys, his Oaths as a knight to protect the weak, his responsibility as a commander to not squander the lives of his man and in front of him there is Brynden Tully gone in full suicidal jackass mode decided to make sure as many person as possible die in what has now become a meaningless fight.

Sheesh, talk about a no win situation.

But what do you know, he manages resolve the situation with minimal loss of life and even rescue Pia in his spare time like a genuine knight in shining armour. And the most 'evil' acts performed to achieve this end is a bluff playing on his infamous reputation and he also tortured a bit the notion of not taking arms against the Tullys (hey, he did not took technically fight them!). Way to go! All things balanced against each other that was a very solid showing.

If someone like Eddard Stark had been in the same position, he'd probably have refused command (because of the Tully oath), ended up in jail, then some maniac like Gregor Clegane would have been sent instead and it would have ended in a blood bath. But hey, oath kept!

I like this new Jaime, I want to see what he does next. Especially since loyalty to his family is sorta removed from his to-do-list and let's face it, not having to please Tywin or Cersei is a big plus toward behaving like a non-asshole (westeros' version of a hero).

[TheCasualObserver]

It's a very well written post OP but you'd best prepare for a shitstorm anyway...

But not from me. I've never liked Jaime - I've articulated why many times before and the crux of my arguments come down to this - a difficult life doesn't justify child murder, and Jaime is partly responsible for the WO5Ks, so the blood of countless thousands of innocents is on his hands.

But really, I think my dislike for the character also stems from the nature of ASOIAF itself. I read the series expecting a rollicking fantasy adventure and instead got the morally complex and sprawling historical "what if?" that we all know and love. But there have been casualties that have broken my heart and that has consequences.

My point is this; with Eddard, Robb, Catelyn and a hundred other sympathetic characters all biting the dust in the most painful and ultimately pointless ways, I'm far less sympathetic to a more grey character like Jaime.

It's like if Frodo had been brutally stabbed to death by orcs near the end of Lord of the Rings and it was up to Sam to destroy the one ring. Now that might still have made for a good story but Frodo's death would have soured and hardened me, and made me care far less about a grey character like Gollum, who Tolkein had every intention should be pitied by the reader in spite of his weaknesses and failings.

It's almost as if GRRM is saying "Well, Catelyn died in misery believing that everybody she loved was dead, but at least Jaime is on the path to redemption!" That's not going to work on me George - you blew my sympathy out of the water.

So personally I'm hoping Stoneheart rips the Kidcrippler's balls off with a potato peeler before hanging him with his own intestines as a noose. Nuff said?

[The Wolves]

Jaime has never had a difficult life.

All the hard situations he's found himself in is by Jaime's own designs.

[Mladen]

But then we have the redemption arc we are all familiar with, starting with the chopped hand and now he is back into trying to juggle the obligations as best he can. And that's awesome.

I am sorry, but Jaime doesn't have the redemption arc... He is not redeeming himself for what he has done, he only wants to be something better. To quote myself from the previous thread about this:

I think there might be fundamentally wrong approach to Jaime's arc when we discussing it as "road to redemption". It was never much that, as it was more like adding dimensions to it. I think many of us have mistakenly concluded that some of his chapters were redemption arc, but instead it was just expanding the "child murderer oathbreaker" box he was placed from the start. The information of what truly was going on in King's landing during RR, how he felt about what Tywin did, many of these things showed us that the life is not that simple. That behind undoubtedly wrong acts there is entire story.

I believe that Jaime's story is truly a tragic one. He started as Sansa, full of dreams and ideals, and ended up as Arya's No one. Someone who is so far from the original that it becomes a shade. Just like his mother cried when he told her that he is the knight and Cersei a queen, Jaime represents total negation of his hopes and dreams. And when ASOIAF Jaime is forcefully clashed with the pre-RR Jaime, then we see how sometimes life can go terribly wrong.

What ultimately we see in ASOS, AFFC and ADWD is attempt to become something who he dreamed to be. It doesn't matter to anyone else, but himself, he is not proving some point to anyone, but to himself. As he said, he can write whatever he wants in the Book of Kingsguard. But, what he tries to do with Brienne, Sansa, even Edmure, is not some great redemption road, but actually attempt to be the knight he stopped being at some point. We see it as redemption because Brienne wants it to be, but this is more Jaime's quest of becoming a knight, then his quest to redeem for all the crimes he has committed. There is unabashed self-awareness in Jaime which makes his journey far less hypocritical than some other characters' road to redemption. But, as I said, it is not road to redemption, but road to an image he once thought he would be.

Jaime has never had a difficult life.

All the hard situations he's found himself in is by Jaime's own designs.

What? I strongly disagree with this sentiment... He is to blame for Aerys' madness, raping and pyromania that questioned Jaime to the very core of his ideals? I know people hate him, but some reason wouldn't mind...

[The Wolves]

What? I strongly disagree with this sentiment... He is to blame for Aerys' madness, raping and pyromania that questioned Jaime to the very core of his ideals? I know people hate him, but some reason wouldn't mind...

I'm sure Jaime knew the reputation of the man he had willingly gone into service for. No he's not to blame for Aerys madness, etc but he probably knew who he was servicing a madmen no doubt.

I'm not about to pity the situation Jaime put himself in with Aerys because the only reason he became a Kingsguard was to share his sister with the future King, he did not realize what the Kingsguard was about what he was to forsake but he didn't care as long as it kept him close to his sister's va jay jay.

[Mladen]

I'm sure Jaime knew the reputation of the man he had willingly gone into service for. No he's not to blame for Aerys madness, etc but he probably knew who he was servicing a madmen no doubt.

I'm not about to pity the situation Jaime put himself in with Aerys because the only reason he became a Kingsguard was to share his sister with the future King, he did not realize what the Kingsguard was about what he was to forsake but he didn't care as long as it kept him close to his sister's va jay jay.

Are you? Just as any one of the KG knew? Should we now blame them for Aerys' moral failings? They put themselves in that situation? That is like blaming Sansa for being tortured by Joffrey because she "put" herself in that situation, or Ned for going to KL knowing how dangerous it is, or even Catelyn and Robb Stark for RW because they went to Twins.

And, so what? So, what if he wanted to be close to Cersei? Does that mitigate the moral dilemmas put in front of him? Did his intentions count when he saw Starks getting killed, or when Aerys raped Rhaella, or when he declared he will burn the city? This is really flawed argument. Jaime is to be blamed for Aerys putting him in those situations? I am sorry, but that sounds like unreasonable character hatred.

[David Selig]

We can blame him for being a total dumbass, anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together would've realised joining the KG and giving up his inheritance to be a glorified bodyguard was an absolute lunacy.

[Mal Malenkirk]

I'm sure Jaime knew the reputation of the man he had willingly gone into service for. No he's not to blame for Aerys madness, etc but he probably knew who he was servicing a madmen no doubt.

You are sure 15 year old Jaime was fully aware of the implication of serving Aerys? To this day no one but Jaime knows Aerys meant to burn King's Landing to the ground and a lot of people long for the good old days of Aerys. This is not the internet age. If you were not at court, you did not know the whole story. Otherwise Brandon and Rickard Stark would have surely reconsidered their plan to demand justice from Aerys...

So no, Jaime was surely not fully aware of the implications of serving that king. Not even close.

[Mal Malenkirk]

am sorry, but Jaime doesn't have the redemption arc... He is not redeeming himself for what he has done, he only wants to be something better. To quote myself from the previous thread about this:

Well put and I agree that he is doing it mostly for himself with full knowledge of what he has become.

The most touching line of his POV is when he says he started wanting to become Arthur Dayne but somehow ended up being the Smiling Knight.

But I think you are stretching the definition of the word 'redemption' here. I consider it applies to what he is trying to achieve. Pretty sure Pia would agree, anyway, as would everyone at Riverun if they realize how close they came to die.

[Mal Malenkirk]

We can blame him for being a total dumbass, anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together would've realised joining the KG and giving up his inheritance to be a glorified bodyguard was an absolute lunacy.

Plenty of people did exactly that over the last four centuries and are revered. King's Guard was an honorable calling until recently.

[The Wolves]

Are you? Just as any one of the KG knew? Should we now blame them for Aerys' moral failings? They put themselves in that situation? That is like blaming Sansa for being tortured by Joffrey because she "put" herself in that situation, or Ned for going to KL knowing how dangerous it is, or even Catelyn and Robb Stark for RW because they went to Twins.

And, so what? So, what if he wanted to be close to Cersei? Does that mitigate the moral dilemmas put in front of him? Did his intentions count when he saw Starks getting killed, or when Aerys raped Rhaella, or when he declared he will burn the city? This is really flawed argument. Jaime is to be blamed for Aerys putting him in those situations? I am sorry, but that sounds like unreasonable character hatred.

This is the Mad King Aerys that's what everyone was calling him, Jaime's father was serving him, I'm sure Jaime heard stories from his father's guards and household just the kind of things Aerys did. And Jaime knowingly walked into a situation and knew he was servicing a crazy, pyromaniac, murderous King. Should I give him some slack because he was a 15yr old boy and technically still a boy, yeah but I hate him.

And your comparisons of Sansa, Ned, Robb, Catelyn are bad because they did not know Joffery was a crazy freak, Ned did not know that he was walking into a tangled web that has been going on for a decade plus, and Robb and Catelyn did not know that they had been lied to and lured to be murdered under false pretense. Jaime knew he was going into the service of a crazy person.

And Jaime was not the only person there when the Starks were getting burned or Rhaella raped I'm sure others had some moral struggle to but we don't get to hear their side. Jaime still stood by and watched as the Starks burned and Rhaella was raped I don't know why I'm suppose to give him points for being confused about it when many sane people would have probably had his same reaction.

[ghosts in winterfell]

And Jaime was not the only person there when the Starks were getting burned or Rhaella raped I'm sure others had some moral struggle to but we don't get to hear their side. Jaime still stood by and watched as the Starks burned and Rhaella was raped I don't know why I'm suppose to give him points for being confused about it when many sane people would have probably had his same reaction.

And yet Jaime was the only who stepped up and put Aerys down.

[Mladen]

Well put and I agree that he is doing it mostly for himself with full knowledge of what he has become.

The most touching line of his POV is when he says he started wanting to become Arthur Dayne but somehow ended up being the Smiling Knight.

But I think you are stretching the definition of the word 'redemption' here. I consider it applies to what he is trying to achieve. Pretty sure Pia would agree, anyway, as would everyone at Riverun if they realize how close they came to die.

What he does with Pia is not redemption. It is an honorable act, a path that he sets for himself, to basically try to achieve what he once dreamed of. People in Riverrun have nothing to thank to Jaime, who, btw, threatened to catapult a child if he doesn't get what he wanted. Simply, just as the demonizing Jaime is wrong, whitewashing is too.

This is the Mad King Aerys that's what everyone was calling him, Jaime's father was serving him, I'm sure Jaime heard stories from his father's guards and household just the kind of things Aerys did. And Jaime knowingly walked into a situation and knew he was servicing a crazy, pyromaniac, murderous King. Should I give him some slack because he was a 15yr old boy and technically still a boy, yeah but I hate him.

And your comparisons of Sansa, Ned, Robb, Catelyn are bad because they did not know Joffery was a crazy freak, Ned did not know that he was walking into a tangled web that has been going on for a decade plus, and Robb and Catelyn did not know that they had been lied to and lured to be murdered under false pretense. Jaime knew he was going into the service of a crazy person.

And Jaime was not the only person there when the Starks were getting burned or Rhaella raped I'm sure others had some moral struggle to but we don't get to hear their side. Jaime still stood by and watched as the Starks burned and Rhaella was raped I don't know why I'm suppose to give him points for being confused about it when many sane people would have probably had his same reaction.

Do you actually think that people were calling Aerys "Mad King" at the time of his reign? Like, really? Also, Jaime didn't know how bad situation would get, that he will have to choose between King and his father and between basic human decency and his honor.

My comparison is not flawed. Ned perfectly knew what dangers lie in KL, Catelyn didn't trust Walder for a second. Jaime knew only part of the story, I doubt that anyone outside the court knew much about Aerys' madness, and how deep he descended into it.

We shouldn't give him points for having strong moral dilemma? And what if he didn't have? In your book, that apparently is the same. Jaime didn't comprehend the full extent of what servitude under Aerys would bring, and to say that he exactly knew is not just stretch of logic, but contrition to rather clear textual proof where we see Jaime being proud to be accepted by glorious Kingsguard.

All and all, I am sorry, but arguing with haters is pointless. Let we leave it here and agree to disagree, since I have no interest in such debates.

BTW, OP, it just occurred to me... Have you borrowed the title from the Cersei thread bumps had? It's interesting having the same title for both twins, lol...

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

There is a ton more sympathy for Jaime Lannister on this forum than there is for Daenerys Targaryen. It may be interesting to speculate why.

[The Wolves]

And yet Jaime was the only who stepped up and put Aerys down.

When it was a threat to him and his.

Jaime didn't put Aerys down when he was lighting up Ricakard, or when he murdered the other highborn lords and their sons.

He didn't put him down when he was viciously attacking and raping Rhaella, standing outside the door hear it all and just listening and seeing the results the next day.

Yeah Jaime deserves props for stopping the wildfire incident but he picked when it mattered to stop Aerys.

But he's no different from a lot of characters in ASOIAF who makes the choices on who matters and when it matters and when you do something.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Some have sympathy for Tywin, Roose and Ramsay, who are way more rotten than Jaime is. Jaime, like I said about Victarion in some other thread, has standards: having standards and moral objections prove you're not a monster. Just to name one, he was not only horrified of Aerys raping Rhaella but actually ordered a rapist to be beheaded after he tried to molest Pia, some commoner girl. That's what's interesting about Jaime: we first saw his "evil" side and then, we met the real man and we wondered why a man who is so different than his father is capable of have been so blind about Cersei and did all the wrong things for her?

No one justifies the attempt of murder Bran, we all know what he did is not something we can forgive and forget, but that doesn't make him irredeemable: even murderers repent in modern days.

[ghosts in winterfell]

When it was a threat to him and his.

Jaime didn't put Aerys down when he was lighting up Ricakard, or when he murdered the other highborn lords and their sons.

He didn't put him down when he was viciously attacking and raping Rhaella, standing outside the door hear it all and just listening and seeing the results the next day.

Yeah Jaime deserves props for stopping the wildfire incident but he picked when it mattered to stop Aerys.

But he's no different from a lot of characters in ASOIAF who makes the choices on who matters and when it matters and when you do something.

No, you're right; he just put him down before he could burn down all of King's Landing. No biggie.

[familydutyhonor]

I am generally very split on Jaime, he's just such a grey area, even compared to a lot of other characters who are also morally ambiguous. Personally, I do sympathise. He was 15 years when he agreed to serve Aerys, not much older when he killed him, and the choices he made then have shaped the rest of his life in a way he cannot escape even if he wanted to. His way of coping - which is certainly not always the best - is to withdraw from others, protect only himself and his family, and embracing the hatred that is thrown his way and turning it into a front to hide away behind. It's flawed and selfish, but it protects him from a world determined to bring him down, and so he survives and thrives even. That's who we first encounter in the books, and his story from then on is so different to everything he's experience before that we start to see his walls come down and shades of the 'real' Jaime appear more and more over time.

Redemption may not be the right word, I agree, but it's surely undeniable that Jaime in ADWD is not the same Jaime that we met initially, in many ways. I don't think he's irredeemable at any rate.

[Mal Malenkirk]

BTW, OP, it just occurred to me... Have you borrowed the title from the Cersei thread bumps had? It's interesting having the same title for both twins, lol...

Actually, no. Didn't see that. But Everyone quotes the Rolling Stone. If I start a thread 'You Can't always Get what you want' for Daenerys, I won't claim full credit. ;)

[Mal Malenkirk]

Liz Stargaryen: There is a ton more sympathy for Jaime Lannister on this forum than there is for Daenerys Targaryen. It may be interesting to speculate why.

Shades of sexism (dual standards) but also instinctive reaction toward the teacher's pet (or author in that case).

In the early part of Daenerys's tale, it seems the entire universe bends itself backward to give her power. Gets annoying after a while.