Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Nope. A Robb Stark hate thread, led by JQC. The funny thing is that I don't hate Robb, I hate his decision to break his oath not Robb. There is a huge difference here. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/65707-what-the-heck-did-robb-really-expect-of-walder-frey/page-3#entry3427712 You know that this is calling stalking and it says much more things about you that is says about me right? As for my morality I am glad that is different and that is not the same. I would hate to excuse people every time they betray someone or break their vows depending only on their popularity, it is called critical thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 I would hate to excuse people every time they betray someone or break their vows depending only on their popularity, it is called critical thinking.Too bad Robb didn't have someone conveniently order him to break his vows and betray someone like Jon did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Too bad Robb didn't have someone conveniently order him to break his vows and betray someone like Jon did. Or someone to conveniently drag him back forcefully to stop him from breaking his oath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Too bad Robb didn't have someone conveniently order him to break his vows and betray someone like Jon did. Sure. But you forget a crucial element that Jon never had and will never have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Sure. But you forget a crucial element that Jon never had and will never have. Which is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRON BANK Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Exactly the true heroes arc, Jon is ready to lead at this point unlike at the beginning. "Fetch me a block" that about sums it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Exactly the true heroes arc, Jon is ready to lead at this point unlike at the beginning. "Fetch me a block" that about sums it up. That was in ADWD. This thread is 'what if Jon led the Stark army in AGOT, ACOK, and ASOS?'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Exactly the true heroes arc, Jon is ready to lead at this point unlike at the beginning. "Fetch me a block" that about sums it up. I kind of agree. Which is? He always had his parents helping him and guiding him. Sure Jon had Ned but it isn't enough and even Ned iirc according to Jon was very different between the two of them. If Bran for example when he would be 14 told to Ned that he wanted to go to NW would Ned had allowed that? I don't think so. (Because I am sure that there will be some people who will start ranting that is not a slight for Cat.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 See my problem with the argument for the RW is that it's supposedly justified by the men who died for Robb. If that was the case every lord should die to pay for their mens death. That's not the way things work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 As for my morality I am glad that is different and that is not the same. I would hate to excuse people every time they betray someone or break their vows depending only on their popularity, it is called critical thinking. The problem is that it's not about Robb's popularity at all. Most people here, I'm sure, had (And I'm using myself as an example) a very "Okay" impression of Robb, as he only really mattered for being the one that could reunite the Stark siblings. The problem is the intensity of said punishment for Robb's actions. It's not excusing when you admit someone did something wrong and deserved punishment, and not want him dead, beheaded, with his dire wolf's head sewn on his body, thousands of slaughtered innocent people, and his mother thrown naked in the Trident to mock her burial rites. What you defend, goes against the development of thousands of years of Basic Law, even before Lex Talionis (Eye for an eye). So, no, it has nothing to do with critical thinking, especially when it's this blatant obvious that the situation was completely out of proportion. See my problem with the argument for the RW is that it's supposedly justified by the men who died for Robb. If that was the case every lord should die to pay for their mens death. That's not the way things work Exactly. People die in war. Walder knew the risks he was taking, and so did Robb. Yet, Walder Frey didn't needed to do what he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 See my problem with the argument for the RW is that it's supposedly justified by the men who died for Robb. If that was the case every lord should die to pay for their mens death. That's not the way things work I think that I was clear, I don't hate Robb I actually like him. However I hate his decision to break his vows and act like nothing happened, because lets be serious his action to give Edmure and not himself is like nothing happened. No one would had said anything if he hadn't married Jeyne, better yet not sleeping with her. But I believe that since everyone who would had done something similar, first using someone and then betray and insult him, would have been punished the same should apply to Robb to and not him being beyond reproach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 You know that this is calling stalking and it says much more things about you that is says about me right?It says that you are paranoid. I used the search function, took me half a minute to find your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 He always had his parents helping him and guiding himYou must be joking? Jon has had some of the best mentors in the story. He was raised by Ned Stark. When he arrived at the Wall Donal Noye advised him on his attitude. Then the LC picked him as his personal steward. Maester Aemon, Mance, Stannis, the list goes on.....Not mention he has Sam. I wish Dany had mentors or friends Jon has had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 I think that I was clear, I don't hate Robb I actually like him. However I hate his decision to break his vows and act like nothing happened, because lets be serious his action to give Edmure and not himself is like nothing happened. No one would had said anything if he hadn't married Jeyne, better yet not sleeping with her. But I believe that since everyone who would had done something similar, first using someone and then betray and insult him, would have been punished the same should apply to Robb to and not him being beyond reproach. But of course when Jon used and betrayed Mance and Ygritte, there is nothing wrong with it, him being a special snowflake and all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 You must be joking? Jon has had some of the best mentors in the story. He was raised by Ned Stark. When he arrived at the Wall Donal Noye advised him on his attitude. Then the LC picked him as his personal steward. Maester Aemon, Mance, Stannis, the list goes on.....Not mention he has Sam.I wish Dany had mentors or friends Jon has had.You are running way too fast. In the beginning Jon had only Ned and Robb had more than that. When you have to compare those two the time Robb was alive, Robb had his parents, his uncles, his counsil and yes even Theon when Jon had Ned, MAemon who basically told him that I know how difficult is for you, Mance and Sam. Donal, Stannis, MAemon more seriously, came way after Robb's death. If you wanna to compare their mistakes you have to compare them when they were both alive. You cannot compare Robb's mistakes and Jon's mistakes in ADWD. So yes for the time they were both alive Jon made only one mistake; trying to go to Robb's side in AGOT. But sure a 14-15 yo who at this time learns than the only father he ever knew would most probably die, should had been able to control himself. But around here saying and doing mistakes while you are mourning like having sex or cursing someone is no problem. So why this is a mistake only for Jon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talleyrand Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 But of course when Jon used and betrayed Mance and Ygritte, there is nothing wrong with it, him being a special snowflake and all... And of course trying to kill a superior officers is all fine and dandy but breaking a marriage contract is deserving of death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 There are no arguments for the RW. End of story. If you killed someone everytime they broke their vows, Westeros would be an empty place. It's like saying Lyanna deserved to die because she ran away with Rhaegar instead of marrying Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 There are no arguments for the RW. End of story. If you killed someone everytime they broke their vows, Westeros would be an empty place. It's like saying Lyanna deserved to die because she ran away with Rhaegar instead of marrying Robert. It's like saying Lyanna deserved to die because she ran away with Rhaegar instead of marrying Robert. And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.--GRRM http://entertainment.time.com/2011/04/18/grrm-interview-part-2-fantasy-and-history/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 I think that I was clear, I don't hate Robb I actually like him. However I hate his decision to break his vows and act like nothing happened, because lets be serious his action to give Edmure and not himself is like nothing happened. No one would had said anything if he hadn't married Jeyne, better yet not sleeping with her. But I believe that since everyone who would had done something similar, first using someone and then betray and insult him, would have been punished the same should apply to Robb to and not him being beyond reproach.That is not true though. Robb apologised profusely to Walder over and over again. He suffered Walder slights with remarkable poise and politeness. He secured a great match for walders daughter in recompense and would have given gold lands and titles if asked. That is not nothing and it is not pretending like he did nothing wrong it is actually the opposite. How many times did Robert bow to Tywin for breaking his oath to honour cersei? Or did hoster attack the north when ned supposedly dishonoured cat? These are not the same as Robb's situation but they are similarFurthermore earlier in this thread you said Robb could not make up for the deaths of Frey men but when I challenged you on this you changed your tune. Robb made every effort other then to put aside the woman he loved. Men die in war and robb is as much to blame for that as is anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 He secured a great match for walders daughter in recompense No, he didn't. Robb was taking his entire military back North with him with the Lannisters and the Tyrells on the doorsteps of the Riverlands. The Tullys were done as a Ruling House at that point, anyone could see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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