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R+L=J v 87


Stubby

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Was Rhaegar sure that he would have another son? I don't think so. More like he expected a daughter.

I believe Unmasked Lurker had a really good explanation for this back at the start of this iteration.

(found it!)

If Rhaegar had a third child with Elia, I think you would be right--he would expect a daughter as his third child. He thought at one point that Aegon was TPTWP, and he would expect the three heads of the dragon to emulate Aegon I and his sisters. At one point Rhaegar thought that he, himself, was TPTWP, so we know that Rhaegar is capable of changing his own interpretation of the prophesy. Once he decided to go off with Lyanna, after Elia could have no more children, it appears that he might have changed his plans. In the HOTU vision, he refers to Aegon as TPTWP and say that he has a song, the "Song of Ice and Fire." But Aegon has no connection to Ice. Once Rhaegar met Lyanna and decided to run off with her to produce what Rhaegar believed would be the third head of the dragon, Rhaegar also likely realized that Lyanna was Ice to his Fire, and thus it would be their son and not Aegon who would be TPTWP. Rhaegar would have had no reason to question the translation as "prince" (Aemon realizes the gender issue in the translation much later and no reason to think Rhaegar would have thought of this issue), so Rhaegar likely would have assumed that TPTWP would be male. Logically, Rhaegar likely concluded that rather than Aegon being TPTWP, it would be his son with Lyanna would would be the Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar). Thus, when Lyanna got pregnant, Rhaegar probably expected a boy and not a girl. He expected The Prince That Was Promised to have the Song of Ice and Fire--and on that point, Rhaegar was right. Jon was born a boy and likely is TPTWP, the Song of Ice and Fire personified.

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Another thought about Aemon being Jon's name...



Most of the references to the Dragonknight in the books come from the Stark children (Bran, Sansa and Jon) and it's made pretty clear in several cases that these stories came to them via Old Nan. We know that Old Nan has been the caregiver and teller of tales to the last several generations of Stark children. Given Lyanna's predisposition to sword fighting, as well as her less well known romantic side (i.e. crying at Rhaegar's tune at the ToH) it's completely plausible that as a child she may have been fascinated by the Targaryen hero who combined martial prowess and romance.



Fast forward to Lyanna bringing a Targaryen son into the world-- whether she had advice from Rhaegar, or Rhaegar had expected a girl and left no instructions on a boy's name, or she simply had to decide on her own altogether-- if she was familiar with tales of Aemon from childhood, it's quite possible she would choose that name for son.


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Another thought about Aemon being Jon's name...

Most of the references to the Dragonknight in the books come from the Stark children (Bran, Sansa and Jon) and it's made pretty clear in several cases that these stories came to them via Old Nan. We know that Old Nan has been the caregiver and teller of tales to the last several generations of Stark children. Given Lyanna's predisposition to sword fighting, as well as her less well known romantic side (i.e. crying at Rhaegar's tune at the ToH) it's completely plausible that as a child she may have been fascinated by the Targaryen hero who combined martial prowess and romance.

Fast forward to Lyanna bringing a Targaryen son into the world-- whether she had advice from Rhaegar, or Rhaegar had expected a girl and left no instructions on a boy's name, or she simply had to decide on her own altogether-- if she was familiar with tales of Aemon from childhood, it's quite possible she would choose that name for son.

I never thought of that but yes, I think Lyanna would prefer Aemon the Dragonknight than Florian the fool.

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Here's the quote in full--

If Jon is Aemon, how wonderful is that line? :)

Another thought about Aemon being Jon's name...

Most of the references to the Dragonknight in the books come from the Stark children (Bran, Sansa and Jon) and it's made pretty clear in several cases that these stories came to them via Old Nan. We know that Old Nan has been the caregiver and teller of tales to the last several generations of Stark children. Given Lyanna's predisposition to sword fighting, as well as her less well known romantic side (i.e. crying at Rhaegar's tune at the ToH) it's completely plausible that as a child she may have been fascinated by the Targaryen hero who combined martial prowess and romance.

Fast forward to Lyanna bringing a Targaryen son into the world-- whether she had advice from Rhaegar, or Rhaegar had expected a girl and left no instructions on a boy's name, or she simply had to decide on her own altogether-- if she was familiar with tales of Aemon from childhood, it's quite possible she would choose that name for son.

Wonderful, wonderful :) Old Nan's stories might have been an influence as well, indeed.

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I can buy that not Rhaegar but Lyanna named Jon as Aemon because I think she was impressed by his story. Hell, she even participated in a tourney as a mystery knight just like Aemon the Dragonknight.

And, of course, when he wins the tourney, The Dragonknight crowns the woman he loves the Queen of Love and Beauty instead of the one ( the mistress) that was supposed to be crowned.

I like all these "Aemon" references!

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I can buy that not Rhaegar but Lyanna named Jon as Aemon because I think she was impressed by his story. Hell, she even participated in a tourney as a mystery knight just like Aemon the Dragonknight.

Perhaps she did so because she was inspired by Old Nan's stories about Aemon the Dragonknight? It would showa bit of the romantic side of her personality, just as crying over Rhaegars song was, if she participated as a mystery knight because she was inspired by Aemon participating as the Knight of Tears so he could crown Naerys the Queen of Love and Beauty.

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Let us not forget that many people pointed similarities between Rhaegar-Mance and Jon-Aemon Battleborn (also called Aemon Steelsong). Aemon was named after Maester Aemon who had been named after Prince Aemon the Dragonknight himself.



These similarities are meant to provide evidence for R+L=J which is still not a confirmed theory. But it is so much thought to be cannon that some people go beyond the purpose of those parallels and claim that Mance is Rhaegar.



I agree that Lyanna’s main source on Prince Aemon was Old Nan. We know that Sansa thought Baelor the Blessed was a saint. The source of this belief cannot be Maester Luwin because the Citadel is somewhat agnostic, and as a man of science he should not care for the religious stories.


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The arguments for Aemon are sound, but from the Stark perspective and what may have motivated Ned name to him Jon, I think the following is interesting:




"King Jon Stark was King in the North and head of House Stark before the War of the Conquest. His son, Rickard, followed him on the throne and annexed the Neck to the Kingdom of the North



When sea raiders landed in the east, he drove them out and built the castle Wolf's Den at the mouth of the White Knife, so as to be able to defend the mouth of the river." -Wiki




The parallel of secret names in other works as well are significant, (in "Dune" to cover the face he was Paul Atreides, he was called "Muadib"), and I think the Manderlys role in the North to help restore the Starks will only grow.


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On a side note, weren't Jon's favorite stories the ones involving Aemon the Dragonknight?



Either way, I do not believe he was named Jon at birth. It would have seemed awful suspicious if Ned had returned home with a bastard bearing a Targaryen name :lol:


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The arguments for Aemon are sound, but from the Stark perspective and what may have motivated Ned name to him Jon, I think the following is interesting:

"King Jon Stark was King in the North and head of House Stark before the War of the Conquest. His son, Rickard, followed him on the throne and annexed the Neck to the Kingdom of the North

When sea raiders landed in the east, he drove them out and built the castle Wolf's Den at the mouth of the White Knife, so as to be able to defend the mouth of the river." -Wiki

The parallel of secret names in other works as well are significant, (in "Dune" to cover the face he was Paul Atreides, he was called "Muadib"), and I think the Manderlys role in the North to help restore the Starks will only grow.

Agreed. Also I don't think it's a coincidence that the most active Northern Houses in TPATQ were Manderly and Dustin.

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Another thought about Aemon being Jon's name...

Most of the references to the Dragonknight in the books come from the Stark children (Bran, Sansa and Jon) and it's made pretty clear in several cases that these stories came to them via Old Nan. We know that Old Nan has been the caregiver and teller of tales to the last several generations of Stark children. Given Lyanna's predisposition to sword fighting, as well as her less well known romantic side (i.e. crying at Rhaegar's tune at the ToH) it's completely plausible that as a child she may have been fascinated by the Targaryen hero who combined martial prowess and romance.

Fast forward to Lyanna bringing a Targaryen son into the world-- whether she had advice from Rhaegar, or Rhaegar had expected a girl and left no instructions on a boy's name, or she simply had to decide on her own altogether-- if she was familiar with tales of Aemon from childhood, it's quite possible she would choose that name for son.

Love this deduction!

Also Aegon V and Aemon got on well, so there might have been a bit of a wish to see Aegon and Jon get on equally well.

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Love this deduction!

Also Aegon V and Aemon got on well, so there might have been a bit of a wish to see Aegon and Jon get on equally well.

Which is also a parallel of Neds prayer in the godswood about Robb and Jon being as close as..............

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I initially backed the name Aemon, because it has been a common and important name throughout the series, but there hasn't been one in a while and because of the Egg parallels. I have since been pretty persuaded for arguments for both Viserys and Aegon. I think I'm gravitating back to Aemon now though. And perhaps like the Dragonknight and the maester, Jon will also never be king. Or maybe he'll be Aemon the first of his name.


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