People who don't care about "The Big Four"?

[JoeyBanana]

It's because those "big" POVs (Dany, JonSno, Tyrion, Cat, Ned, Bran) drive the narrative and the real meat is with the subtler elements like Arya's SoS chapters, Sansa, Jaime & Brienne together, later Theon in aDwD.

It's the comparison between Theon's aDwD and Dany/Jon/Tyrion in aDwD that makes those chapters look quite bad, especially if nothing is happening plot-wise. Then there's also Arya, which is a prime example of a great character that served its purpose perfectly and dropped off a high cliff as soon as he had nothing truly engaging like the Harrenhal or Hound stuff anymore.

It's still fun to read but the awe is gone which makes Brienne (she did have the single best chapter in aFfC, though) or Arya boring to the ones who care solely about the politics and the plot. Those who are more interested in the world of aSoIaF, will dislike those narratively driven chapters, it's only natural.

What made Jon, Tyrion, and Dany worse is that he offered nothing meaty to both of those groups in aDwD. It'll change after WoW, i'm sure.

[Northernmonkey]

When ADWD was published we just had way too much of the big 3. I think he should have stuck to the original plan and made it into one book; cut certain things like Brienne's travelogue, Tyrion's travelogue, Jon's inventory, lengthy descriptions of meals, and some of the characters. He could have gotten away with fitting it all into one book and he might be a lot further in writing the books. But these are his books and that's just my opinion.

I've been re-reading AFFC recently and I was surprised at how good Brienne's travelogue chapters are. I think the books would be a lot worse if GRRM felt the need to strip away anything that wasn't directly related to the main plot. if that was the case we wouldn't have got Septon Meribald's speech or Brienne's trip to the whispers with Nimble Dick (two of my favourite chapters).

[FireAndBlood.]

I think I'm in the minority when I say I actually rather enjoyed Brienne's POV in AFfC. But I can understand people's frustrations with them because they were, for the most part, completely irrelevant to anything and could have been trimmed right down without diminishing my enjoyment of them. But that is an issue that most POVs from books 4 and 5 are afflicted with. Cersei, Brienne and Jaime's chapters all had a lot of fat that could have been trimmed. Same with Samwell, although he didn't have as much. And then in ADwD the sheer volume of Tyrion and Jon chapters was just ridiculous, especially when you can when you can summarise both of their arcs with "Meets Aegon, captured by Jorah, joins Second Sons outside of Meereen" and "allows wildlings to pass through the wall and join the Night's Watch, alienates his brothers to the point where they want to kill him".

[PirateVergo]

Jon and Tyrion have more chapters than the rest because they're more important and George like them better.

[Northernmonkey]

And then in ADwD the sheer volume of Tyrion and Jon chapters was just ridiculous, especially when you can when you can summarise both of their arcs with "Meets Aegon, captured by Jorah, joins Second Sons outside of Meereen" and "allows wildlings to pass through the wall and join the Night's Watch, alienates his brothers to the point where they want to kill him".

You can summarise anyone's storyline in a sentence if you'd like, but it doesn't mean they're not important. For example Tyrion's storyline gets criticised for being drawn out, but it also gave us a valuable insight into the lives of Illyrio, Aegon and the red priests, three major players in the books.

[ChillyPolly]

Ah, thank you! (Didn't knew that poll) Well, don't know if it's surprising for me or not... Although I guess, it isn't coincidence that all Starks(+Jon) and Davos and Brienne (both morally good and really fine characters) are under the first six.

Yes, well, the problem with "favorite character" polls is that they do not really measure relative popularity of a character. If 40% of the fanbase love Tyrion, then Tyrion may have little competition for "favorite" since there are so few characters like Tyrion. But if 60% of the fanbase prefer slightly more decent characters, and don't think much of the sort of bastard who would strangle a young woman in her bed, then there are many options to chose from: Brienne, Davos, Sansa, Jon, Samwell, Bran, even Arya.

Looking at "Favorite Character" polls, Tyrion will always come in ahead of Bran or Sansa, in that a greater portion of the fanbase considers him their single most-favorite. Measure them directly against each other (as in "If Tyrion and Bran were in a battle to the death, who would you want to win" or "If Tyrion and Sansa were in a battle to the death, who would you want to win"), then Bran and Sansa would come out ahead, in the opinion of a majority of fans.

[sj4iy]

It's because those "big" POVs (Dany, JonSno, Tyrion, Cat, Ned, Bran) drive the narrative and the real meat is with the subtler elements like Arya's SoS chapters, Sansa, Jaime & Brienne together, later Theon in aDwD.

It's the comparison between Theon's aDwD and Dany/Jon/Tyrion in aDwD that makes those chapters look quite bad, especially if nothing is happening plot-wise. Then there's also Arya, which is a prime example of a great character that served its purpose perfectly and dropped off a high cliff as soon as he had nothing truly engaging like the Harrenhal or Hound stuff anymore.

It's still fun to read but the awe is gone which makes Brienne (she did have the single best chapter in aFfC, though) or Arya boring to the ones who care solely about the politics and the plot. Those who are more interested in the world of aSoIaF, will dislike those narratively driven chapters, it's only natural.

What made Jon, Tyrion, and Dany worse is that he offered nothing meaty to both of those groups in aDwD. It'll change after WoW, i'm sure.

I don't get why anyone would think nothing is happening plot-wise at the Wall in ADwD, or that Jon's story is stagnant there. He's interacting with several other main characters for once, he has the power to actually make decisions and do things and he's preparing everything he can for the upcoming war with the Others. If anything, his storyline becomes more interesting than it was in previous books.

[The Onion Sleight]

Yes, well, the problem with "favorite character" polls is that they do not really measure relative popularity of a character. If 40% of the fanbase love Tyrion, then Tyrion may have little competition for "favorite" since there are so few characters like Tyrion. But if 60% of the fanbase prefer slightly more decent characters, and don't think much of the sort of bastard who would strangle a young woman in her bed, then there are many options to chose from: Brienne, Davos, Sansa, Jon, Samwell, Bran, even Arya.

Looking at "Favorite Character" polls, Tyrion will always come in ahead of Bran or Sansa, in that a greater portion of the fanbase considers him their single most-favorite. Measure them directly against each other (as in "If Tyrion and Bran were in a battle to the death, who would you want to win" or "If Tyrion and Sansa were in a battle to the death, who would you want to win"), then Bran and Sansa would come out ahead, in the opinion of a majority of fans.

:agree: Yes, that's a big and important aspect!

Or: Having someone as favourite character and rooting for somebody is definitely not (always) the same. (Some polls ask for this, some for that. The one with all Starks + Jon + Davos + Brienne as winners asked more about rooting).

I love Roose, I like Victarion, I enjoy them - Do I root for them? Hell, no! There are so many characters I found boring or I dislike them, but I'd still "want them more to win, in a battle to the death" against them.

Some "favourite characters polls" just aren't comparable.

[Kyoshi]

I've been re-reading AFFC recently and I was surprised at how good Brienne's travelogue chapters are. I think the books would be a lot worse if GRRM felt the need to strip away anything that wasn't directly related to the main plot. if that was the case we wouldn't have got Septon Meribald's speech or Brienne's trip to the whispers with Nimble Dick (two of my favourite chapters).

I also loved Brienne's chapters. The chapter with Septon Meribald's speech is my favourite in the entire series. After recently re-reading that book I found that I liked it a whole lot better than Clash. However, that's not the general feeling from readers.

Most people consider it the weakest, the lack of "major" events seems a primary reason for its unpopularity. I personally felt it was necessary since it calmed things down and showed us the consequences of war. It was aptly named too. But people don't necessarily care about the calm after a storm, counting the human cost and reflecting on the actions of war.

I personally felt that was one of the greatest things GRRM incorporated into these books. Very rarely does fantasy actually delve into the aftermath of battles fought in the name of honour, country and everything else the heroes will claim. You never hear of the women raped and the children orphaned, only the heroes and their bravery. I applaud GRRM for that book. Like I said, I felt it was absolutely necessary. We need that as readers, to go home and think about these things and not just blindly cheer because something "major/epic is going down."

[Clariana]

I also loved Brienne's chapters. The halter with Septon Meribald's speech is my favourite in the entire series. After recently re-reading that book I found that I liked it a whole lot better that Clash. However, that's not the general feeling from readers.

Most people consider it the weakest, the lack of "major" events seems a primary reason for its unpopularity. I personally felt it was necessary since it calmed things down and showed us the consequences of war. It was aptly named too. But people don't necessarily care about the calm after a storm, counting the human cost and reflecting on the actions of war.

I personally felt that was one of the greatest things GRRM incorporated into these books. Very rarely does fantasy actually delve into the aftermath of battles fought in the name of honour, country and everything else the heroes will claim. You never hear of the women raped and the children orphaned, only the heroes and their bravery. I applaud GRRM for that book. Like I said, I felt it was absolutely necessary. We need that as readers, to go home and think about these things and not just blindly cheer because something "major/epic is going down."

I am with you all the way on this. AFfC was a worthy hiatus compared to the headlong dash of the other books and it brought necessary depth and shading to GRR's fantasy.

[The Night's Prince]

Tyrion sucks. Jon and Arya are the ones I care about really among the 4.

[JoeyBanana]

I don't get why anyone would think nothing is happening plot-wise at the Wall in ADwD, or that Jon's story is stagnant there. He's interacting with several other main characters for once, he has the power to actually make decisions and do things and he's preparing everything he can for the upcoming war with the Others. If anything, his storyline becomes more interesting than it was in previous books.

I didn't say nothing was happening but simply not enough to satisfy those that want action and twists. My point was the combination of the aforementioned lack of plot progression and the lesser depth, compared to other POVs like Theon or Jaime. This is only in aDwD, of course. It is interesting and i've enjoyed every Jon (and Dany) chapter in that book but let's not kid ourselves, it doesn't compare to aSoS or even aCoK.

My guess is that in Jon's case it was intentional to set up the assassination and its aftermath, though.

[sj4iy]

I didn't say nothing was happening but simply not enough to satisfy those that want action and twists. My point was the combination of the aforementioned lack of plot progression and the lesser depth, compared to other POVs like Theon or Jaime. This is only in aDwD, of course. It is interesting and i've enjoyed every Jon (and Dany) chapter in that book but let's not kid ourselves, it doesn't compare to aSoS or even aCoK.

My guess is that in Jon's case it was intentional to set up the assassination and its aftermath, though.

Oh no, I thoroughly agree that his chapters in ADwD aren't as good as his chapters in ASoS. Dany's chapters are most definitely inferior....but simply comparing Jon and Dany's chapters in ADwD, I find Jon's chapters to be vastly superior, as he is actually, actively doing something and interacting with other main characters, whereas Dany is becoming more paranoid and trying to clean up her mess. I agree that Jon's chapters are there to set up his assassination attempt- the most interesting thing to happen in those two books, really XD

[Witch]

I didn't say nothing was happening but simply not enough to satisfy those that want action and twists. My point was the combination of the aforementioned lack of plot progression and the lesser depth, compared to other POVs like Theon or Jaime. This is only in aDwD, of course. It is interesting and i've enjoyed every Jon (and Dany) chapter in that book but let's not kid ourselves, it doesn't compare to aSoS or even aCoK.

My guess is that in Jon's case it was intentional to set up the assassination and its aftermath, though.

Dany had a great finale too.

[JoeyBanana]

Dany had a great finale too.

Yep. Her epic hat struggle was great. A dragon needs a hat, it is known.

But seriously, Dany's POV has the same problem in aDwD, the biuld up bored some people who wanted more action or more depth. It'll change with WoW.

[Kyoshi]

I reopened this thread hoping to find someone who didn't care about any of the big four at all. Ah well, there's still time.

[BastardlyRock]

I reopened this thread hoping to find someone who didn't care about any of the big four at all. Ah well, there's still time.

I don't recall if you'd mentioned or not Kyoshi but who are the characters you most care about when reading? Most of my favorite are not the "big four" though I do admit I pulled for Tyrion and Arya a bit in the beginning.

[Kyoshi]

I don't recall if you'd mentioned or not Kyoshi but who are the characters you most care about when reading? Most of my favorite are not the "big four" though I do admit I pulled for Tyrion and Arya a bit in the beginning.

Jon, Dany, Arya, Jaime, Brienne, Cersei's kids, Pod, Asha, Davos and Bran. And Ghost, can't leave out Ghost, Grey Worm and Missandei

[BastardlyRock]

Jon, Dany, Arya, Jaime, Brienne, Cersei's kids, Pod, Asha, Davos and Bran. And Ghost, can't leave out Ghost, Grey Worm and Missandei

Great list - I'll second Jaime, Brienne, Asha, Davos in my top tier, with everyone else in my second :cheers:

[sj4iy]

I reopened this thread hoping to find someone who didn't care about any of the big four at all. Ah well, there's still time.

I think most people have to like at least one of them to really care for the series at all, since they are so integral to the story. If you didn't like any of them, then you would be stuck reading about 75% of the story which you don't like.