Were Rhaegar's actions justified if Jon is The Prince Who Was Promised?

[WSmith84]

Yeah, I agree that the hero and his magic sword is a bit too on the nose for ASOIAF and GRRM. There are some interesting theories out there about what LB actually is, but we both agree that Jon is going to be integral. But was it fate...or choice...or both? :)

I think with that word you've captured why I dislike characters fulfilling prophecies; the implied lack of free will.

[sj4iy]

I don't think this can be answered because we have to see if Jon or someone else is TPTWP

This entire thread is working under the assumption that Jon becomes TPWWP. That doesn't mean it's true, or that I believe it- but if it were true, would all of Rhaegar's actions be justified?

Isn't that the same kind of question as "if God knows all our actions ahead of time, are our actions really free will?"

Sort of. The books labor a lot under the idea of pre-destination, that everything is foreseen and prophecies will be fulfilled. So it makes me wonder if it's at all possible for a prophecy to be broken within the universe of the story, or if the prophecy will be fulfilled, no matter what. As others have said, did Rhaegar really have free will in his decision making, or was he always fated to be as he was?

[BearQueen87]

I think with that word you've captured why I dislike characters fulfilling prophecies; the implied lack of free will.

I get that because it's a sad world if there is no free will. But what if Jon fulfills the prophecy without ever knowing about the prophecy, at least that he's the prophesied one? Does that mean it was fate or free will? He chose to do everything, free from the burden of prophecy, yet it still came to pass as prophecy dictated. So which reigned supreme at the end of the day: Jon's free will, or fate?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

They could've gone to Essos instead of causing the deaths of thousands to get their vengeance and keep their power.

It wasn't vengeance, it was self-defense. Not just for them, but for people in Westeros who might be on the chopping block next. They might be able to run off to Essos, but why should they have to? And where does that leave everyone else who has to live under Aerys?

[BearQueen87]

It wasn't vengeance, it was self-defense. Not just for them, but for people in Westeros who might be on the chopping block next. They might be able to run off to Essos, but why should they have to? And where does that leave everyone else who has to live under Aerys?

Especially if part of Rhaegar's thought process was to quietly and bloodlessly remove Aerys from the throne given Aerys' state of mind.

[Boarsbane]

They could've gone to Essos instead of causing the deaths of thousands to get their vengeance and keep their power.

Yea and leave good ole Aerys in power, I am sure you are so selfless that you would sacrifice yourself to a madman to prevent a war, and completely overlook the fact this nutbag is going to cause a rebellion on down the line even if you run or give yourself up to be executed, and who knows how many will die before he provokes more lords into that rebellion.

[WSmith84]

I get that because it's a sad world if there is no free will. But what if Jon fulfills the prophecy without ever knowing about the prophecy, at least that he's the prophesied one? Does that mean it was fate or free will? He chose to do everything, free from the burden of prophecy, yet it still came to pass as prophecy dictated. So which reigned supreme at the end of the day: Jon's free will, or fate?

I suppose if prophecy can be wrong, then I'll be happy even if its fulfilled. If the TPTWP prophecy is fulfilled because Jon makes the choices necessary for its fulfillment and that different choices could lead to it being unfulfilled, I could be satisfied with that.

I remember when reading Harry Potter, the thing I liked about the prophecy in that one is that it is confirmed that if Voldemort had never heard it, or had simply ignored it, it wouldn't have come true. If a similar thing happens in ASOIAF, I'll be happy.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Before I pass judgement, I'd like to know what Rhaegar's actions actually were. But hell, that's just me.

[BearQueen87]

I suppose if prophecy can be wrong, then I'll be happy even if its fulfilled. If the TPTWP prophecy is fulfilled because Jon makes the choices necessary for its fulfillment and that different choices could lead to it being unfulfilled, I could be satisfied with that.

I remember when reading Harry Potter, the thing I liked about the prophecy in that one is that it is confirmed that if Voldemort had never heard it, or had simply ignored it, it wouldn't have come true. If a similar thing happens in ASOIAF, I'll be happy.

I believe there is a SSM somewhere about how people need to stop listening to prophecy and start listening to Old Nan more. Might have been a joke, but it I think it's possible that the prophecy is just words on paper. What matters is how people treat them.

[The Wolves]

It wasn't vengeance, it was self-defense. Not just for them, but for people in Westeros who might be on the chopping block next. They might be able to run off to Essos, but why should they have to? And where does that leave everyone else who has to live under Aerys?

They didn't do it for anybody but themselves.

I agree with David.

And I'm not one to be all I agree with the rebellion because if Aerys had murdered smallfolk or low born people nobody would be raising rebellions for them. Aerys could have done all kinds of atrocities and gotten away with it but if he harmed anyone from the great houses banners would be raised and a unnecessary war would be fought, hypocrites.

And the rebellion did nothing great for Westeros when the exchange of power went from one house that had a mad King to two houses(Baratheon/Lannister)that have been just as worst for the country.

[Bryanfury]

They didn't do it for anybody but themselves.

Yes, that's what self-defense usually entails, acting in the defense of oneself. As in, Aerys tried to have them killed, and they said "Uh, no". What's the issue other than your difference of opinion in whether or not it was alright for someone to not kneel down and die for no reason to a madman?

[ReRe]

I think Rhaegar was convinced that Aegon was The Prince That Was Promised. However, at one point he believed himself to be the prince. So, Rhaegar could have been wrong, as so many others, including Mel, have been. Rhaegar knew, though, that the dragon has three heads, so he wanted another child.

Throwing all of that aside for a moment, I think that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. Love is an awesome force, which cannot always be deterred, despite the tragic consequences. Also, many references describe Rhaegar as a romantic figure who moves people to tears with his music. So, in a way, Rhaegar's and Lyanna's story was the song of ice and fire, too.

[Boarsbane]

They didn't do it for anybody but themselves.

I agree with David.

And I'm not one to be all I agree with the rebellion because if Aerys had murdered smallfolk or low born people nobody would be raising rebellions for them. Aerys could have done all kinds of atrocities and gotten away with it but if he harmed anyone from the great houses banners would be raised and a unnecessary war would be fought, hypocrites.

And the rebellion did nothing great for Westeros when the exchange of power went from one house that had a mad King to two houses(Baratheon/Lannister)that have been just as worst for the country.

So they should of just gave themselves up to Aerys to be killed because they have the power of seeing into the future to know Robert would be a bad king? Or is it because they were fighting a war to remove a madman from power but not because he was madman just because he called for their heads(no big deal)? Either way Jon Arryn was the one who called his banners when Aerys called for their heads, he most be the worst person in Westeros for not giving up his two wards and sending the realm into war.

[Winterfell is Burning]

If the prophecy specifically says:

• "To create the Prince that was Promised, the father of the Prince, whose name is Rhaegar Targaryen, shall wed the daughter of the Lord of Winterfell even if she's already bethroted."
  
• "A substitute (for example, the daughter of another important Northern lord) will not be accepted."
  
• "The father of the Prince that was Promised is authorized to publically humiliate his wife to gain favor with the mother of the Prince"
  
• "He also must specifically disappear with the mother without giving notice and abandon his wife and children with his mad father;"
  
• "Finally, the father of the Prince must do the best he can to create a war that will lead to the deaths of thousands"
  

Then maybe Rhaegar's actions were justified. Anything other than that means he was simply a dick and his behavior reckless and unacceptable.

I've always felt Rhaegar was trying to create a Visenya, for Rhaenys and Aegon. So whether Jo saves anyone or not, I don't actually think it was what Rhaegar intended as he thought Aegon was the prince. It all just seems like one giant mess to me. Whatever happens think in the end it'll be nothing that really resembles victory after so much destruction, death and pain.

Yep.