Ellfoy Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 It's seem that in the show, Bran can see visions without weirwood (KIng's Landing) so... definitly through Bran. Who wants to bet that they are gonna do the R+L=J reveal the same episode that Jon get stabbed, I would say just a few minutes before ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 It's seem that in the show, Bran can see visions without weirwood (KIng's Landing) so... definitly through Bran. Who wants to bet that they are gonna do the R+L=J reveal the same episode that Jon get stabbed, I would say just a few minutes before ? Episode 9 then. It has to be episode 9 (which I have decided will be called, "For the Watch") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellfoy Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Episode 9 then. It has to be episode 9 (which I have decided will be called, "For the Watch") I'm not sure. In season 4, they did a big episode 9 but it wasn't the big shock episode (ep 2, 8 and 10 this season). I think it would be the last episode, you know for the very cruel cliffhanger. If not, it wouldn't be fair... "For the Warch" is a cool title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Episode 9 then. It has to be episode 9 (which I have decided will be called, "For the Watch") Around when do they reveal episode titles (this next season will be the first time I've read the books before the entire season). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Bran having a vision is my guess, though I didn't think there were any weirdwoods either. Ravens or even other animals might suffice. The current greenseer then (BR) saw it through their eyes, but as he is part of the trees, they remember it even after his death, should it occur any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Around when do they reveal episode titles (this next season will be the first time I've read the books before the entire season). I'm not sure, sadly. Ravens or even other animals might suffice. The current greenseer then (BR) saw it through their eyes, but as he is part of the trees, they remember it even after his death, should it occur any time soon. Ah good point. I wonder if it will only tease R+L = J or if it will be 100% clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Ah good point. I wonder if it will only tease R+L = J or if it will be 100% clear. If I had to place a bet, as the show has been very explicit so far, there will be much more than a tease. But we will have to expect a surprise, as usual. Worst case is they decide against the tower scene and do it all differently... :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabrecmc Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I would love to see them basically show R+L=J and then have Jon stabbed. I'm a terrible person, but that would be so WTF for the Unsullied. I know so many people that just watch the show and not only do they not know who Jon's parents are, they don't even know that is at all an issue. Jon is Ned's bastard son. Period. No great mystery. Show said so...admittedly, with all the social media coverage of the theory lately, that might not be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 If I had to place a bet, as the show has been very explicit so far, there will be much more than a tease. But we will have to expect a surprise, as usual. Worst case is they decide against the tower scene and do it all differently... :( Oh heaven help them if they mess up the ToJ scene I would love to see them basically show R+L=J and then have Jon stabbed. I'm a terrible person, but that would be so WTF for the Unsullied. I know so many people that just watch the show and not only do they not know who Jon's parents are, they don't even know that is at all an issue. Jon is Ned's bastard son. Period. No great mystery. Show said so...admittedly, with all the social media coverage of the theory lately, that might not be true. I think that's what will happen. Bran gets confirmation that R+L = J (though, I don't think R+L = LEGIT J will be confirmed on screen yet) and then Jon gets stabbed. The audience is left all O___________O for a year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I would love to see them basically show R+L=J and then have Jon stabbed. I'm a terrible person, but that would be so WTF for the Unsullied. I am getting used to the idea now. ... not only do they not know who Jon's parents are, they don't even know that is at all an issue. Jon is Ned's bastard son. Period. No great mystery. Show said so...admittedly, with all the social media coverage of the theory lately, that might not be true. Well I know of at least one ("otherwise") very bright reader who has re-read it 4 times so far and sticks to the above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Oh heaven help them if they mess up the ToJ scene I think that's what will happen. Bran gets confirmation that R+L = J (though, I don't think R+L = LEGIT J will be confirmed on screen yet) and then Jon gets stabbed. The audience is left all O___________O for a year Do you think they will be reading your post? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Did you notice the page number is > 20 and the count of the postings has been reset after #408 down to #377 in the next post? From then on it is counting upward again. UPDATE: that has been fixed in the meantime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Yes Martin very much plays in the grey whether they appear an archetypical hero or villain. Though he does go into a rather clear explanation of the idea in that great video LG posted. They fall very much in line with what he has stated. A character like Jon can be very heroic, very moral but also at times a little shit like most of us, but his life, experiences, personality and all that will generally be his guidance. Where we get some Tyrants like Roose, Ramsey, slavers, Whats his face the Cruel, does not lend it itself to disbelief because Many Tyrants have existed in history he just prefers them to not be black and white. Though it is not going to stop him from dropping the hammer on them, heck he would happily kill Hitler after all.Yeah we both know Martin is not the first to play with grey characters. Herbert is of course a classic example though Dune as Herbert has said was his answer to the Monomyth, that is where beware the hero comes in. I don't mean to say Jon will follow Paul or Leto but they are both great examples of the anti myth. Never been a fan of the Monomyth myself it is over generalized, over vague, has a male bias, embraces vague similarities while ignoring the differences in stories, the cultural significance, historical development, ethnocentric, the work was never substantiated and he basically just ripped off Gustav Freytag who was expanding upon the dramatic structure of Aristotle and the idea Willa Cather once stated in her famous quote:"There are only two or three human stories, and they go on repeating themselves as fiercely as if they had never happened before; like the larks in this country, that have been singing the same five notes over for thousands of years.""Perhaps I am like Carrie Jensen, the sister of one of my hired men. She had never been out of the cornfields, and a few years ago she got despondent and said life was just the same thing over and over, and she didn't see the use of it. After she had tried to kill herself once or twice, her folks got worried and sent her over to Iowa to visit some relations. Ever since she's come back she's been perfectly cheerful, and she says she's contented to live and work in a world that's so big and interesting. She said that anything as big as the bridges over the Platte and the Missouri reconciled her. And it's what goes on in the world that reconciles me."It's a profound statement that a hack tried to formalize. By his own admission very few myths contain all the stages, some have many and other only a few, and some have none. The more adhere structuring to it followed after it was written. In Moby dick the protagonist went on a journey, and it pretty much ends there with similarities. There are not many books where the protagonist isn't doing something, or going someplace. We could have a character study of a child at home. Young Gilbert sat watching TV, his mother wasn't home so so he was using on demand to power watch the entire 4th season of AGOT, he was only 9 almost a man grown but new he should not be watch this. Which made the fact that he was all that much sweeter. Ok power outage, noise in the attic that repeats over and over. Hide under the bed or journey into the dark mystery that is attic? A lot of thunder no no I am not going, I am staying under the bed. Finds his courage and calls for his dog Emma, a super sweet bull terrier to accompany him on his quest and also because she is afraid of thunder too. The thunder buddies. Gear up replica light saber for light, classic make shift blanket cloak, pot from under the kitchen sink for a helmet ohhh the fancy copper pot, colander can can work as well, Journey up the stairs to the attic, gasp the cat surprised me, stop by brothers room to raid it, stop by sisters room to explore it. Wait what is this in the brothers room, gasp tis the goddess a poster of Linda Carter in her Wonder Woman costume, oh first true love. Oh and what is this in his sisters room, her journal? Gasp could this be a temptress to read or not to read? Oh the struggle. Ring Ring, oh it's dad. He wants to talk. Stay out of the attic. Sure Dad, Venture fourth into the attic, oh what is this, Dads private magazine collection, oh what a boon, oh and your brothers fireworks stash, gasp an old coin collection and old comics. Good thing that tree branch was banging against the window. Time to head back to my room, lets go Emma.Rhaegar and prophecy, well it's a tough call with him for me, up until Aegon' birth he is talking about it. I think Rhaegar very much figures into the road less traveled. Martin accentuates that sort of choice he didn't make and it's ramifications, "I meant to"Prophecy in general is a dangerous thing both Martin and Herbert sort of share this view. Though I don't know if it is the exact same, Jon has little understanding of his dreams and while they bother him and he thinks about them they don't have a major effect on his life to this point. Dany for the most part is totally confused by Quathie, Bran unfortunately has an instructor and Mel has been guiding Stannis. In Dance it mentioned that Tyrion also struggles with nightmares most of his life but we never get to see them.I never read Moorcock so I am pretty useless with that.Did you catch the part where Martin pointed out some of his similarities to Dany and his families past? I wish I had some damn dragons to take back the town my family built.I prefer grey characters as well, though I tend to feel that grey really means well developed and with lots of depth and realism."Fear is the mind killer," and "I am dead to everyone unless I become what I may be," are definitely part of the patterns of monomyth, and while I think Herbert was influenced by Campbell, I think he was also more influenced by outside forces as well,( i.e., environmental exploitation and the rise of cult of personalities -not to be confused with the song), :P But I agree the monomyth is a little too simplistic because while I think there are certain templates of behavior present in the human condition that cause us to repeat the same behaviors over and over, (driven of course by our passions which are not logical), hence history and cycles repeating themselves, it doesn't take into account the individual behaviors which will always be an unknown variable. I like that Martin does make Jon "covet," to some degree, though he ultimately does turn down offers and keeps his vows, but I think the interesting question is, (and busting the monomyth formula), are we certain he would turn down the IT if he finds out who he is? He was raised at Ned's knee with a heady diet of duty, and after a life of deception and rebuke as a bastard, can we be so certain he would just give it all up?At what point would he come to think of himself as the "greater good?" Robert Kirkman of "Walking Dead," does a similar thing with his protagonist, Rick Grimes, because at least in the graphic novel, Grimes is not nearly the "hero" he is on the show, but of course, he is in the process of evolving, or "devolving." ;), though he remains the "savior," of mankind. We do see that Jon does have his moments of being an "everyman," and even bored aristocrat, (reflections of Rhaegar?). We also see it in Arya as she is able to survive and create her own "pack," wherever she goes, but she does have those moments where she turns into "Lady" Arya very quickly as evidenced when she is trying to get back into the City, (and as much as people like to ship Gendry and Arya, it is pretty evident to Gendry the social chasm between them and he resents Arya and Edric). As for Rhaegar and prophesy, I try and give him the benefit of the doubt, but if you know the authors POV on such things as religious fanaticism and zealotry, prophesy and magic, can we assume the author doesn't write the character obsessed with prohpesy with a cautionary bent? Martin seems to have the ability to take all the good things from his potential influencers from history, to other writers and make them uniquely his own, so I think he will keep his own promise on keeping us breathless and guessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 ... can we assume the author doesn't write the character obsessed with prohpesy with a cautionary bent? ... I think he will keep his own promise on keeping us breathless and guessing. Well said. The Tragedy of Summerhall sprang to mind immediately when I read the above. And I hope for the second and anticipate the unexpected. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrettyPig Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Oh heaven help them if they mess up the ToJ scene We're talking HBO here. I have absolute faith that they will mess up far more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 We're talking HBO here. I have absolute faith that they will mess up far more than that. Yeah :( It'll be another House of the Undying scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honeyed chicken Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 We're talking HBO here. I have absolute faith that they will mess up far more than that. But they'll get a dozen Emmy nominations for messing it up with digital creativity and technical precision. And maybe an acting nom. as well. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrettyPig Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 And speaking of Summerhall.......the castle in that link, and more precisely that setting of that castle in that link, is more of what I had pictured for Summerhall - a "vacation castle" in the Riverlands. You know, lush, verdant, rolling lowlands, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 And speaking of Summerhall.......the castle in that link, and more precisely that setting of that castle in that link, is more of what I had pictured for Summerhall - a "vacation castle" in the Riverlands. You know, lush, verdant, rolling lowlands, etc. I think you mean Stormlands http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:The_Stormlands.png But Summerhall might be another option. Though, has the show name dropped Summerhall at all? (granted they haven't name dropped the ToJ either) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrettyPig Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Yes, Stormlands....durrrr. Clearly coffee has NOT kicked in.... I haven't heard any mention of Summerhall, but if HBO is going to try and establish SOME backstory of Rhaegar to lead up to the Big Reveal, I think it will need to mentioned/flashbacked - maybe in a Dany/Barry convo? I dunno, just throwing out an alternative....mainly because aside from the tower looking like a tower, it isn't even close to my mental image of the TOJ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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