Plot holes (Real ones, not things you don't like)

[RumHam]

I think that in the world book it has been changed so Braavos only remains a secret for 100 years or so. Link

I don't think Martin changed anything, the Unmasking of Uthero is even mentioned in Feast. The confusion comes from the fact that their location was kept secret longer than their existence.

Braavos was a city made for secrets, a city of fogs and masks and whispers. Its very existence had been a secret for a century, the girl had learned; its location had been hidden thrice that long.

[whatsinthepaste?]

Littlefinger setting Tyrion up as the one who arranged to have Bran murdered. Tyrion knows Lf set him up yet never tells anyone.

Id imagine Tyrion is buying his time, waiting for a revenge moment. And also him showing LF's schemes to Tywin, could have some how back fired on him. IIRC wasnt he hiding shae at this point? And i dont think Tywin was yet in KL?

Thats why i thought he did nothing about the dagger incident. Pay back LF in due time

[Lordsteve666]

Thanks for that link jet199, hadn't seen that yet.

There is some confusion about the dates that's why i was having issues understanding how something so powerful could go unnoticed for so long. Plus the dates on the wiki seem to conflict with other sources making things even more complicated.

I was thiking after reading that bit from the new world book, if Valyria knew of Braavos and Braavos tried to smooth thing over before revealing themselves then did they have a role in the Doom than we know nothing of yet?

It's speculated the Faceless Men brought about the Doom, and it's also speculated that the FM are possibly part of, or directed by the Iron Bank. Did the FM originate in Valyria and then escape with the rest of the slaves to Braavos where they honed their skills and expanded their operations.

So if the IB tried to smooth things over with Valyria was this just a ruse, did they plot its downfall? Could they have arranged the ultimate revenge from afar using their own group of assassins?

[FreeParking]

Id imagine Tyrion is buying his time, waiting for a revenge moment. And also him showing LF's schemes to Tywin, could have some how back fired on him. IIRC wasnt he hiding shae at this point? And i dont think Tywin was yet in KL?

Thats why i thought he did nothing about the dagger incident. Pay back LF in due time

If someone frames me for murder, and that leads to me being captured, my life being threatened by hill tribes, being held in the sky cells, having a joke of a trial, winning a trial by combat by sheer luck of having Bronn there, and, oh, being a catalyst for the war we are currently in, I have to think dealing with that person would be near the top of my priority list.

Something else that doesn't make sense to me. Jaime arrives at King's Landing after the Purple Wedding but before Tyrion's trial, correct? Why does he never go and talk to him until the end?

[It-was-koff-the-Pie-koff]

Seriously now, why doesn't The North have a Western port?

[Cas Stark]

If someone frames me for murder, and that leads to me being captured, my life being threatened by hill tribes, being held in the sky cells, having a joke of a trial, winning a trial by combat by sheer luck of having Bronn there, and, oh, being a catalyst for the war we are currently in, I have to think dealing with that person would be near the top of my priority list.

Something else that doesn't make sense to me. Jaime arrives at King's Landing after the Purple Wedding but before Tyrion's trial, correct? Why does he never go and talk to him until the end?

Yeah, you would certainly put a stop to said person being named Lord of Harrenhall and then being sent to marry the very same woman who tried to kill you, especially when you had strong evidence that this person had framed you for attempting to kill Bran...the very thing that set the Lannisters in motion. You would strongly suspect your lord father would, if not spike his head on a pike, at least refrain from giving him so much power.

So, yes, it's a plot hole or at the very least a HUGE error on Tyrion's part.

[whatsinthepaste?]

Yeah, you would certainly put a stop to said person being named Lord of Harrenhall and then being sent to marry the very same woman who tried to kill you, especially when you had strong evidence that this person had framed you for attempting to kill Bran...the very thing that set the Lannisters in motion. You would strongly suspect your lord father would, if not spike his head on a pike, at least refrain from giving him so much power.

So, yes, it's a plot hole or at the very least a HUGE error on Tyrion's part.

How is he able to actually prove to anyone that LF set him up though? Just wondering if i dont remember those events exactly

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Yeah, you would certainly put a stop to said person being named Lord of Harrenhall and then being sent to marry the very same woman who tried to kill you, especially when you had strong evidence that this person had framed you for attempting to kill Bran...the very thing that set the Lannisters in motion. You would strongly suspect your lord father would, if not spike his head on a pike, at least refrain from giving him so much power.

So, yes, it's a plot hole or at the very least a HUGE error on Tyrion's part.

The argument I've heard is that while Tyrion wanted to take Littlefinger down, he couldn't during the events of ACoK because Littlefinger was controlling the finances for the war. Even though Littlefinger wasn't a financial genius at all, everyone believed he was. Tyrion couldn't risk rocking the boat.

By the time ASoS happens, Littlefinger saves the Lannisters by arranging the Tyrell alliance. He then provides valuable information as a spy about the Tyrells.

Now in ASoS, Tyrion could say "hey dad, by the way, the war was all Littlefinger's fault - he framed me for trying to murder Bran." But, Tywin response would probably be "yeah, the guy is evil, but he's giving me information on the Tyrells. I gave him Harrenhal anyway, so he'll be out of our hair."

[Cas Stark]

The argument I've heard is that while Tyrion wanted to take Littlefinger down, he couldn't during the events of ACoK because Littlefinger was controlling the finances for the war. Even though Littlefinger wasn't a financial genius at all, everyone believed he was. Tyrion couldn't risk rocking the boat.

By the time ASoS happens, Littlefinger saves the Lannisters by arranging the Tyrell alliance. He then provides valuable information as a spy about the Tyrells.

Now in ASoS, Tyrion could say "hey dad, by the way, the war was all Littlefinger's fault - he framed me for trying to murder Bran." But, Tywin response would probably be "yeah, the guy is evil, but he's giving me information on the Tyrells. I gave him Harrenhal anyway, so he'll be out of our hair."

yeah, but that is a rationalization for a character acting out of character. why doesn't he set Varys to start spying on LF ASAP when he gets back to KL? if he had told his father in a timely manner, then his father may not have given him harrenhall...he, Tywin, may have recognized that LF is much more of a threat than he seems....because all Tywin knows of him is that he's an ass kisser who helped him out w/the Tyrells and so he's rewarding him. he knows nothing of his part in starting the entire conflict. IF he knew this, it would put LF in an entirely new light, and we know he had already given Tyrion authority to have LF and Varys and Pycelle killed when he made him hand to begin with.

so, there is no excuse for it except the author wants LF to amass all of this power, it is a huge lapse from tyrion's typical strong strategic thinking that we saw up until he goes nuts and kills his father and shae and then is off the deep end.

[JamesOfHouseMurphy]

Thanks for that link jet199, hadn't seen that yet.

There is some confusion about the dates that's why i was having issues understanding how something so powerful could go unnoticed for so long. Plus the dates on the wiki seem to conflict with other sources making things even more complicated.

I was thiking after reading that bit from the new world book, if Valyria knew of Braavos and Braavos tried to smooth thing over before revealing themselves then did they have a role in the Doom than we know nothing of yet?

It's speculated the Faceless Men brought about the Doom, and it's also speculated that the FM are possibly part of, or directed by the Iron Bank. Did the FM originate in Valyria and then escape with the rest of the slaves to Braavos where they honed their skills and expanded their operations.

So if the IB tried to smooth things over with Valyria was this just a ruse, did they plot its downfall? Could they have arranged the ultimate revenge from afar using their own group of assassins?

The doom of Valyria was a volcanic eruption, nobody plotted it or had roles in it it was simply a natural disaster

[ache]

Id imagine Tyrion is buying his time, waiting for a revenge moment. And also him showing LF's schemes to Tywin, could have some how back fired on him. IIRC wasnt he hiding shae at this point? And i dont think Tywin was yet in KL?

Thats why i thought he did nothing about the dagger incident. Pay back LF in due time

My issue with that plot is that Tyrion saw Tywin before he hooked up with Shae, before he returned to King's Landing and discovered the details of the crown's precarious financial position etc. Tyrion arrives at Tywin's field headquarters immediately after the Eyrie debacle armed with the knowledge that Littlefinger set him up and does not say a word. The Lannister's are extremely powerful and at this point, Littlefinger is still pretty much a nobody, he would have been quickly and easily disposed of without any problem. The only reason that didn't happen is that Tyrion neglected to inform his father, an omission he had absolutely no reason to make at that time.

Edited to add : When viewed as a whole, Littlefingers story has many moments where his success is entirely reliant on characters never saying or thinking things they would almost certainly say or think.

Nothing happens when Littlefinger turns up at the Eyrie with Sansa. Even though her aunt is her only known living (free) relative. Even though her aunt is a known Lannister hater. Even though random sellswords of no fixed address have the details on kingslayer Stark, and make their way to the Vale, not a single person in power thinks of it.

Then there is the fact that Littlefinger has been rising to power on the backs of Lysa and Jon Arryn for around 15 years and Hoster Tully says and does nothing. Hoster knew it was Littlefinger who fathered Lysa's baby. There was huge potential for a House Tully shaming scandal in having Littlefinger so close to Lysa for so many years yet he never says anything. Surprisingly mellow for a guy who forcefully aborted his first grandchild.

I think I find Littlefinger's plot armour far more jarring than say, Tyrion's, because in the span of five books, he has never lost. Despite Tyrion surviving things he shouldn't many times, he has been on a downward slide since the beginning, he's winning the battles but losing the war. Littlefinger just keeps on rising which makes his unrealistic luck stand out even more. I'm sure he'll lose eventually but until he does, I kind of see him as one of those daytime soap supervillains, too over-the-top and too much plot armour.

Lord Tywin Lannister cared not a fig for his deformed son, but he tolerated no slights on the honor of his House.

Martin, George R. R. (2010-12-23). A Game of Thrones (A Song of Ice and Fire, Book 1) (p. 320). HarperCollins Publishers. Kindle Edition.

[The Bedding]

The absence of art in general, for many reasons since rulers and church representatives should have seen it as prestigious thing to decorate their castles and septs and to promote artists.

It gets a plot hole when there are virtually no paintings and drawings at all that might show family histories and similiarities. And, first of all, nothing to identify lost people. For sure Brienne would have gotten a miniature of Sansa with her or at least would have seen a portrait of the King's fiancée somewhere before she starts her search.

Irrelevant in the series since Sansa only disappears after Brienne has seen her. Actually in the series we have seen figurative paintings, e.g. In the brothel. This is coherent with the general development of style and decoration. Making the absence of portrait painting even more blatant.

There would be portraits of most important Lords and Ladies everywhere and we could not speculate so much about their looks ;)

When did Brienne see Sansa? I don't remember this.

[ache]

When did Brienne see Sansa? I don't remember this.

In the tv series, Brienne saw Sansa praying in the Godswood and then again at the wedding.

[Consigliere]

They talk pretty extensively about kings guard giving up all claims when Tyrion is pointing out to Tywin that he is the rightful heir to Casterly Rock, as for the examples you've mentioned I suppose they're just more holes.

The KG give up all claims to holding land so Jaime cannot be named lord of Casterly Rock as long as he is in the KG. There is nothing in the text that says they cannot hold titles. Those examples are not plot holes but rather precedent that proves the KG can be awarded titles.

[HexMachina]

The KG give up all claims to holding land so Jaime cannot be named lord of Casterly Rock as long as he is in the KG. There is nothing in the text that says they cannot hold titles. Those examples are not plot holes but rather precedent that proves the KG can be awarded titles.

Wasn't Lewyn still a Prince, rather than Ser? Just as an example of KG with titles

[Consigliere]

Wasn't Lewyn still a Prince, rather than Ser? Just as an example of KG with titles

I mentioned that upthread. The Dragonknight also retained the title "prince".

[The Bedding]

In the tv series, Brienne saw Sansa praying in the Godswood and then again at the wedding.

Yes. But I don't think she saw her in the books at all. Jamie and Brienne didn't even make it to the wedding on time in the books.

[RumHam]

I mentioned that upthread. The Dragonknight also retained the title "prince".

And Dayne was of course still "The Sword of the Morning."

[sj4iy]

He has all the wildling gold and such, and anyway, he only borrowed money for food and shelter, he wasn't splashing out on extravagant tourneys & weddings like other lenders. He could probably pay it back with money from trading crops once Spring comes back around (If it doesn't the IB is the least of their worries)

Not that I'm rehashing this argument again, but Jon negotiated the loan before the Wildlings came through the Wall.

[JamesOfHouseMurphy]

Not that I'm rehashing this argument again, but Jon negotiated the loan before the Wildlings came through the Wall.

The point was he negotiated that when the wildlings came through they would give up all there valuables. If the wildlings hadn't come he still would've had to put up valuables just less of them coz he wouldn't of needed as big a loan, coz he would've needed less food.